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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jul 19, 2021 18:37:49 GMT
I mean I suppose we'll just get used to vaccine passports as we do everything else. I know logically it's no different to a bag search or ID check, but maybe because it's medical it seems more... I don't know. I mean if you bring a bag to a venue, well that's on you. You get it searched. If a venue says "you cannot enter until you have had a specific type of medicine", it just feels a bit... I mean am I crazy? It feels a bit weird, right? I'm not saying it's outright wrong and I understand the reasoning, it just feels off. Don’t feel off. It’s a good thing. We’re in unprecedented times. It is for your benefit
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Post by poster J on Jul 19, 2021 20:20:40 GMT
I think vaccines are very important and these ones really have been the best thing to happen since the start of this pandemic, but at the same time, I feel vaccine passports feel a bit... dystopian? I'm very conflicted. Maybe that's irrational. But I guess since I'll be getting both jabs it won't affect me directly. It just feels a bit... off. If it has to be dystopian for a while to overcome the selfishness of an idiot minority so the rest of us can live again without any restrictions then bring it on as far as I'm concerned!
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Post by Jon on Jul 19, 2021 20:26:31 GMT
If it has to be dystopian for a while to overcome the selfishness of an idiot minority so the rest of us can live again without any restrictions then bring it on as far as I'm concerned! If it's a choice between showing the vaccine status for a few seconds or being stuck at home, I think many will pick the first option!
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Post by joem on Jul 19, 2021 20:55:02 GMT
Not yet Uhuru.
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Post by kathryn on Jul 19, 2021 22:57:41 GMT
‘Vaccine passports’ used to just be called ‘immunisation records’. When it was just for the standard childhood vaccination programme no-one used fo complain about being asked to show they’d had them. You had to do so for university admissions, for example, and for travel to certain countries.
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Post by lynette on Jul 19, 2021 23:00:48 GMT
‘Vaccine passports’ used to just be called ‘immunisation records’. When it was just for the standard childhood vaccination programme no-one used fo complain about being asked to show they’d had them. You had to do so for university admissions, for example, and for travel to certain countries. Exactly
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Post by sph on Jul 20, 2021 0:33:41 GMT
‘Vaccine passports’ used to just be called ‘immunisation records’. When it was just for the standard childhood vaccination programme no-one used fo complain about being asked to show they’d had them. You had to do so for university admissions, for example, and for travel to certain countries. Yes but travelling to certain countries is not an everyday activity. Again, I think EVERYONE should be vaccinated, but having to prove it to get into a pub/club/theatre/restaurant etc, depending on which venues they decide will require them, feels a tiny bit Orwellian. Showing a vaccine record to a child's school or a university is very different to showing it in order to go for a quick pint.
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Post by talkingheads on Jul 20, 2021 6:20:17 GMT
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Post by poster J on Jul 20, 2021 7:18:17 GMT
‘Vaccine passports’ used to just be called ‘immunisation records’. When it was just for the standard childhood vaccination programme no-one used fo complain about being asked to show they’d had them. You had to do so for university admissions, for example, and for travel to certain countries. Yes but travelling to certain countries is not an everyday activity. Again, I think EVERYONE should be vaccinated, but having to prove it to get into a pub/club/theatre/restaurant etc, depending on which venues they decide will require them, feels a tiny bit Orwellian. Showing a vaccine record to a child's school or a university is very different to showing it in order to go for a quick pint. Then don't go for a quick pint. It's your prerogative, if you feel it's overbearing then you can choose to avoid those places. You don't have any right to go to a pub...
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Post by HereForTheatre on Jul 20, 2021 7:59:59 GMT
How is it going to be policed though? Fine for theatres and concerts ect where people greet you at the door to check tickets ect anyway but what about in pubs? Somebody is going to now have to stand there all day checking every single persons covid status?
Also what about cafes and such? Even coffee shops like Pret or costa? There too? Because they can be just as busy as a pub or restaurant, especially if there is seating, there is very little difference. McDonalds? I mean where does it stop. It will be interesting to see the published list of settings where it needs to be in use.
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Post by firefingers on Jul 20, 2021 8:09:45 GMT
‘Vaccine passports’ used to just be called ‘immunisation records’. When it was just for the standard childhood vaccination programme no-one used fo complain about being asked to show they’d had them. You had to do so for university admissions, for example, and for travel to certain countries. I've not really understood this weird "gotcha" comparison. I've never had to show my immunisation records to get in to a night club or "large event". I think people are deliberately conflating the idea of an international travel vaccine passport, which does essentially already exist, and one for regular use inside a country, which is very much a new idea and pretending it isn't is rather bonkers. I still haven't made up my mind on whether I like the idea of them or not, but to say it is nothing new is gaalighting. I sure as hell don't remember the bouncer at Oceana asking when my last tetanus booster was.
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Post by firefingers on Jul 20, 2021 8:15:05 GMT
How is it going to be policed though? Fine for theatres and concerts ect where people greet you at the door to check tickets ect anyway but what about in pubs? Somebody is going to now have to stand there all day checking every single persons covid status? Also what about cafes and such? Even coffee shops like Pret or costa? There too? Because they can be just as busy as a pub or restaurant, especially if there is seating, there is very little difference. McDonalds?  I mean where does it stop. It will be interesting to see the published list of settings where it needs to be in use. I mean, the stopping point feels fairly clear... it'll be one of the reasons they've gone with the "large events" part. As you say it becomes unmanageable to do it for smaller settings that are based on free movement. The chances of a superspreader event in wagamamas is a lot lower than Wembley Stadium anyway.
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Post by theatreian on Jul 20, 2021 8:48:03 GMT
The covid passports are only to be used in events or large gatherings inside such as nightclubs as far as I understand, they were never intended for pubs etc so I can't understand all the outcry. We are living in an unprecedented time, so if there are things you want to do then you should be prepared to be vaccinated and show that you have .
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Post by mkb on Jul 20, 2021 11:00:25 GMT
If one in 95 people test positive for Covid and they are evenly distributed throughout the population -- they're not -- then you need only 66 people in a room for it to be more likely than not that someone present has Covid.
[Maths: (1-1/95)^66 = 0.497]
In that section of the population that is not shutting itself away, the incidence rate is likely to be much higher (due to greater social contact, and younger people being less likely to be vaccinated at this point in time.) As an example, if it were one in 50 people in that group, you only need 35 such people to be sharing a room for it to be probable that someone present has Covid. That could be one Tube carriage.
We hear that there is evidence building that wearing of masks and being vaccinated (by both virus carrier or potential recipient) mitigate transmission and the likelihood of severe symptoms. The academics and data analysts must, by now, have some numerical expectations, but nothing seems to be shared by government.
All aspects of life require risk management rather than risk elimination (otherwise you'd never cross a road), so it's important we get some numbers from the experts so that informed decisions can be made.
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jul 20, 2021 11:05:26 GMT
Interesting that BJ has done this to clubbers aka people who may not vote Tory. When compared to what to what football and tennis fans got away with last month.
And just for the record I'm in favour of passport's and ID cards
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Post by talkingheads on Jul 20, 2021 11:09:40 GMT
Presumably now distancing has been ditched, a lot more people will get pinged by the app. Is the isolation mandatory or is it now a case of testing and if it's negative then carry on?
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jul 20, 2021 11:17:58 GMT
Presumably now distancing has been ditched, a lot more people will get pinged by the app. Is the isolation mandatory or is it now a case of testing and if it's negative then carry on? I wonder how many have now deleted the app?
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Post by eua78 on Jul 20, 2021 11:19:39 GMT
Presumably now distancing has been ditched, a lot more people will get pinged by the app. Is the isolation mandatory or is it now a case of testing and if it's negative then carry on? From what I understand you’re meant to isolate, but there’s a grey area as to wether it’s mandatory with the app ping as it is not legally enforceable . If contacted by test and trace it is mandatory.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Jul 20, 2021 11:20:39 GMT
Kept the app as it is easier to enter a venue, once inside I delete the location in the settings and do not have Bluetooth switched on.
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Post by The Matthew on Jul 20, 2021 11:53:11 GMT
Kept the app as it is easier to enter a venue, once inside I delete the location in the settings and do not have Bluetooth switched on. It annoys me that the app won't even start unless Bluetooth is on. I almost always keep Bluetooth switched off for longer battery life and I don't need the covid-19 contact tracing — the last time I was in a pub for lunch the nearest occupied table was 10m away — but to check into a venue I have to start the app, cancel its complaint about Bluetooth being disabled, go into settings, enable Bluetooth, start the app again, check in, return to settings, disable Bluetooth. I know why they've done it that way but it's still irritating.
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Post by christya on Jul 20, 2021 12:00:00 GMT
I kept the app but turned off contact tracing ages ago because I kept seeing it finding people apparently close to me at times when I know for a fact I was completely on my own. I don't want to get pinged because the next door neighbour spent an hour painting his fence within range of my office and then tested positive. I'm testing every 2-3 days anyway, plus vaccinated, so I'm not overly concerned. Still use it for checking into venues though.
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Post by sph on Jul 20, 2021 14:22:53 GMT
Yes but travelling to certain countries is not an everyday activity. Again, I think EVERYONE should be vaccinated, but having to prove it to get into a pub/club/theatre/restaurant etc, depending on which venues they decide will require them, feels a tiny bit Orwellian. Showing a vaccine record to a child's school or a university is very different to showing it in order to go for a quick pint. Then don't go for a quick pint. It's your prerogative, if you feel it's overbearing then you can choose to avoid those places. You don't have any right to go to a pub... My dear Poster J, if I said the sky was blue I swear that you would insist it was green with yellow polka dots.
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Post by sph on Jul 20, 2021 14:24:34 GMT
‘Vaccine passports’ used to just be called ‘immunisation records’. When it was just for the standard childhood vaccination programme no-one used fo complain about being asked to show they’d had them. You had to do so for university admissions, for example, and for travel to certain countries. I've not really understood this weird "gotcha" comparison. I've never had to show my immunisation records to get in to a night club or "large event". I think people are deliberately conflating the idea of an international travel vaccine passport, which does essentially already exist, and one for regular use inside a country, which is very much a new idea and pretending it isn't is rather bonkers. I still haven't made up my mind on whether I like the idea of them or not, but to say it is nothing new is gaalighting. I sure as hell don't remember the bouncer at Oceana asking when my last tetanus booster was. I think you've hit the nail on the head there!
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jul 20, 2021 16:23:03 GMT
I've not really understood this weird "gotcha" comparison. I've never had to show my immunisation records to get in to a night club or "large event". I think people are deliberately conflating the idea of an international travel vaccine passport, which does essentially already exist, and one for regular use inside a country, which is very much a new idea and pretending it isn't is rather bonkers. I still haven't made up my mind on whether I like the idea of them or not, but to say it is nothing new is gaalighting. I sure as hell don't remember the bouncer at Oceana asking when my last tetanus booster was. I think you've hit the nail on the head there! Missed no? By some distance
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Post by Phantom of London on Jul 20, 2021 17:34:40 GMT
The government couldn’t even police wearing of masks, so how are they going to enforce whether people have been vaccinated or not?
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Post by kathryn on Jul 20, 2021 19:31:52 GMT
‘Vaccine passports’ used to just be called ‘immunisation records’. When it was just for the standard childhood vaccination programme no-one used fo complain about being asked to show they’d had them. You had to do so for university admissions, for example, and for travel to certain countries. I've not really understood this weird "gotcha" comparison. I've never had to show my immunisation records to get in to a night club or "large event". I think people are deliberately conflating the idea of an international travel vaccine passport, which does essentially already exist, and one for regular use inside a country, which is very much a new idea and pretending it isn't is rather bonkers. I still haven't made up my mind on whether I like the idea of them or not, but to say it is nothing new is gaalighting. I sure as hell don't remember the bouncer at Oceana asking when my last tetanus booster was. I was more saying this because of the medical privacy argument than anything else. There’s not really a difference between sharing your childhood vaccination records with schools and university and travel authorities and sharing them with a theatre - it’s the frequency that is increasing, not the type of information being shared.
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Post by sph on Jul 20, 2021 22:39:18 GMT
I mean... really? There's no difference between showing medical records to a theatre than a school or travel authority? Really?
Look, I'm not saying it's totally wrong as we are in unprecedented times, but let's not all pretend that whipping out a vaccination record to show a nightclub bouncer is normal behaviour. I think it's ok to be a little thrown off by this new way of doing things.
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Post by djp on Jul 20, 2021 23:56:43 GMT
If one in 95 people test positive for Covid and they are evenly distributed throughout the population -- they're not -- then you need only 66 people in a room for it to be more likely than not that someone present has Covid. [Maths: (1-1/95)^66 = 0.497] In that section of the population that is not shutting itself away, the incidence rate is likely to be much higher (due to greater social contact, and younger people being less likely to be vaccinated at this point in time.) As an example, if it were one in 50 people in that group, you only need 35 such people to be sharing a room for it to be probable that someone present has Covid. That could be one Tube carriage. We hear that there is evidence building that wearing of masks and being vaccinated (by both virus carrier or potential recipient) mitigate transmission and the likelihood of severe symptoms. The academics and data analysts must, by now, have some numerical expectations, but nothing seems to be shared by government. All aspects of life require risk management rather than risk elimination (otherwise you'd never cross a road), so it's important we get some numbers from the experts so that informed decisions can be made.
But we now have an almost perfect storm. 100k or 200k cases a day projections seems to be whats detected, not the total. But its an awful lot of people, and increasingly fills up hospitals and displaces other activity if numbers don't peak in early or late August. .
Vaccines may stop 60-80 percent of potential cases materializing but it seems about 20-25% of vaccinated people may both get it and still be able to infect others.
Thats an obvious limitation on vaccine passports - as is the false reporting rate for the alternative - lateral tests.
Policy was meant to use the 5 weeks pre July 19 to vaccinate an average 2 million plus a week and continue at 2 million into July. But thats not happened -many weeks saw one million new vaccinations and recently there's even been one day with 50k first vaccines issued. There's a big chunk of the younger population not coming forward on top of resistance in some groups. Which is bad for London theatre given the demography of the capital.
Nor has there been any progress yet on the medications hoped for to protect those not defended at all/well enough by vaccines. So the most vulnerable face retreating into isolation , or risking large numbers of infectious people once numbers get high again.
Isolation is vital . And its more vital when the delta variant reportedly has an R number of c7 which is about twice the original virus. And that increase in infections may, from limited evidence, mean it takes much less , passing, exposure to contract it (the Australian case of the two men passing in a supermarket who infected each other at that their only meeting)- That all questions whether an app that requires relatively long contact is actually going to have the problem that it misses cases , not only that it may identify contacts with no consequences. You may need to tune it up , not down.And on top of that there's all those infected people with no app and no symptoms too.
Which leaves the current theatre problem that lots of people are catching it, isolation is necessary , but the show can not go on when the cast isolates. if you let infection numbers go up , more people will have to be isolating , or they will go up more and keep on going up.
And there you have government policy. it makes no sense advising people to make their own judgement as to whether to follow firm advice - its logically nonsense - like an optional speed limit. .It also makes no economic sense as rising case numbers reduce economic activity because key people isolate, and careful people don't take risks - all supposedly to restore freedom and increase economic activity. And vaccination helps , but not as much as it would if we had finished the 18 pluses by now and found and vaccinated the people who avoided the jab.
And the bad news keeps on rolling in - with the reluctance to risk even tiny numbers of complications vaccinating children- even though several countries including the Israeli test bed have done so. That gives your theatre goer to shows with high child numbers in the audience the non appealing prospect that they will end up sitting next to children who won't be vaccinated, may not be tested,may not wear a mask, may have the sniffles, and are prone prolific virus spreaders.
The answer is clear . if people don't fancy a much reduced but continuing significant chance of death, long covid or organ damage, you get vaccinations up to a level where the virus can't sustain itself with large case numbers . You don't leave a pool of infectious children, and you forget about superspreader events like nightclubs where confined spaces meet vigorous activity and alcohol. ,You then develop new vaccines to match projected changes in the virus and pray some new variant doesn't arrive before you have a vaccine that works against it.
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Post by mkb on Jul 21, 2021 1:26:22 GMT
An excellent post! And a very good summary of where we're at.
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Post by The Matthew on Jul 21, 2021 6:11:57 GMT
They should really have said that restrictions would be relaxed when some certain percentage of people had been vaccinated and the reproduction rate of the virus was remaining below 1. Then there'd be an incentive for people to take action to get there. Setting a fixed date when restrictions would be removed regardless and saying "Gee, I sure hope we can hit all the right targets by then" was unbelievably stupid.
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