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Post by jojo on Jun 19, 2024 14:39:16 GMT
While I don't support most of the actions by JSO, the complete and utter denial in this thread of the significance of the issues they are trying to highlight makes me more sympathetic to their sense of frustration.
It makes me think back to my days studying the Russian and French Revolutions at school. Invariably something that was happening in Russia or France caused a bit of a panic in the UK, so sufficient changes were made to avoid heads rolling. On the other hand, those with the power in France were just too wedded to maintaining their lifestyles to recognise the warning signs and do something about it before it was too late.
As the saying goes, when you are used to privilege, equality feels like oppression. It seems to me people feel the same way when it comes to adapting our lifestyles to be less exploitative of the natural environment and future generations. There are already people experiencing droughts, famine, wars and a loss of their homes because of climate change. We've got mass extinctions, and WHO said in 2015 that at a planetary level we have just 60 harvests left unless we learn how to look after our soils better. That prediction is already here for some parts of the world.
Slightly longer queues to get into events is not oppression, and using public transport to get to the theatre doesn't cancel out everything else. Some say that individuals can't do much, which I think is a cop-out. Every time we buy something or use a service we are making a choice. But if you do believe it's all down to governments then you still need to ask how you can get involved with influencing what governments do, and not just at election time.
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Post by ceebee on Jun 19, 2024 14:39:41 GMT
JSO is now a loony fringe outfit of wannabe rebels armed with orange powder. Totally lost sight of their cause.
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Post by nash16 on Jun 19, 2024 15:17:00 GMT
JSO is now a loony fringe outfit of wannabe rebels armed with orange powder. Totally lost sight of their cause. 🤦♂️ |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jun 19, 2024 15:35:46 GMT
There hasn't been a denial about the seriousness of the issues on this thread
There has been a lot of consensus that damaging paintings and monuments is not the way to advance those issues
Blocking roads and causing delays for those in need of medical treatment is not the way to advance those issues
Environmental issues need serious conversations with the right people.
Stunts like today make it harder for those conversations to take place
The tactics are counterproductive and need to stop
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Post by marob on Jun 19, 2024 15:59:48 GMT
I saw something recently that Twitter/X would be allowing adult content, which I took to mean porn, but I see the terms “w***ers” and “a***holes” are trending.
Which is the overwhelming reaction to this latest pointless stunt, not the very valid concerns about the lack of action on the ever worsening climate emergency.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2024 17:43:39 GMT
While I don't support most of the actions by JSO, the complete and utter denial in this thread of the significance of the issues they are trying to highlight makes me more sympathetic to their sense of frustration. It makes me think back to my days studying the Russian and French Revolutions at school. Invariably something that was happening in Russia or France caused a bit of a panic in the UK, so sufficient changes were made to avoid heads rolling. On the other hand, those with the power in France were just too wedded to maintaining their lifestyles to recognise the warning signs and do something about it before it was too late. As the saying goes, when you are used to privilege, equality feels like oppression. It seems to me people feel the same way when it comes to adapting our lifestyles to be less exploitative of the natural environment and future generations. There are already people experiencing droughts, famine, wars and a loss of their homes because of climate change. We've got mass extinctions, and WHO said in 2015 that at a planetary level we have just 60 harvests left unless we learn how to look after our soils better. That prediction is already here for some parts of the world. Slightly longer queues to get into events is not oppression, and using public transport to get to the theatre doesn't cancel out everything else. Some say that individuals can't do much, which I think is a cop-out. Every time we buy something or use a service we are making a choice. But if you do believe it's all down to governments then you still need to ask how you can get involved with influencing what governments do, and not just at election time. I don't for one second deny the issues that the planet face, I think as a planet, we are causing serious harm that needs addressing. I for one, recycle, avoid buying single use plastics, walk or use public transport, use company charity days to support cleaning up the local community, use environmentally friendly cleaning products, so feel like I do what I can, but also believe that the government can do a lot more to support and educate. I do not condone anything that JSO does, I think that they cause a lot of criminal damage, they have absolutely caused death and harm with their 'protests', they claim to be trying to save the world, but in reality, they themselves are absolute misguided idiots that have probably pushed back the cause they claim to be educating people about through alienating the general public I 100% support jail time for all of the entitled, obnoxious and arrogant JSO protesters. |
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Post by richey on Jul 27, 2024 9:29:14 GMT
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Post by jojo on Jul 27, 2024 10:20:57 GMT
I think the sentences for the JSO protesters are ridiculous and more suited to Putin's Russia. And while I don't support many of the tactics of JSO, I agree with the general principle that their actions are very minor inconveniences compared with the consequences of climate breakdown. But if you believe a bit of inconvenience is an acceptable price to pay for a greater cause, then it's embarrassing to consider putting in such a request, especially this early in the sentence. Other prisoners are allowed out for similar occasions, assuming good behaviour, and I have no issue with the concept. I look forward to the major shareholders of the oil companies facing justice for their actions. If holding up traffic for a few hours gets you four/five years in prison then I wonder what they'll get for destroying the lives and livelihoods of millions? Unfortunately, the justice system still thinks that ruining lives with fossil fuels/cars is not worthy of the same punishment as inconveniencing those in them. This is a recent example of a drunk driver who caused horrendous life changing injuries to a cyclist, and his punishment was a small fine and a short driving ban. Not even a few hours of community service for him. road.cc/content/news/cyclist-slams-12-month-driving-ban-drink-driver-306677?fbclid=IwY2xjawERpqRleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHUUaj4RBp3Gje_A7c-m13rkvRZI8kb9wJOGG62H1iMYSrAAIXG0Lz5MzEw_aem_zpl3kn8ekv-ULAIjVS5pMQ |
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Post by bimse on Jul 27, 2024 10:44:51 GMT
I think the sentences for the JSO protesters are ridiculous and more suited to Putin's Russia. And while I don't support many of the tactics of JSO, I agree with the general principle that their actions are very minor inconveniences compared with the consequences of climate breakdown. But if you believe a bit of inconvenience is an acceptable price to pay for a greater cause, then it's embarrassing to consider putting in such a request, especially this early in the sentence. Other prisoners are allowed out for similar occasions, assuming good behaviour, and I have no issue with the concept. I look forward to the major shareholders of the oil companies facing justice for their actions. If holding up traffic for a few hours gets you four/five years in prison then I wonder what they'll get for destroying the lives and livelihoods of millions? Unfortunately, the justice system still thinks that ruining lives with fossil fuels/cars is not worthy of the same punishment as inconveniencing those in them. This is a recent example of a drunk driver who caused horrendous life changing injuries to a cyclist, and his punishment was a small fine and a short driving ban. Not even a few hours of community service for him. road.cc/content/news/cyclist-slams-12-month-driving-ban-drink-driver-306677?fbclid=IwY2xjawERpqRleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHUUaj4RBp3Gje_A7c-m13rkvRZI8kb9wJOGG62H1iMYSrAAIXG0Lz5MzEw_aem_zpl3kn8ekv-ULAIjVS5pMQWhile I can agree with their cause, there is no way I can accept the means used, which are not harmless, peaceful protests. They do not create “minor inconveniences” or a bit of “acceptable” inconvenience, as jojo claims. They cause direct harm to a great many people. Speaking as someone who has frequently struggled through traffic at the best of times, to get to chemotherapy appointments, which I have the need, and the right to attend, I do not agree in any way that these protests are acceptable and/or harmless. My heart goes out to those who were DENIED the treatment they have a right to, by these people, as well as the many others who have been harmed in any way. The pleas by families of those jailed, that they are being denied the opportunity to attend weddings are utterly nauseating to hear. Such entitlement. And yes I know I’m going to be on the receiving end of lectures by some on this board, telling me that not getting treatment which could save a life, my life, is a “small price to pay” …. But save it . It could be YOU trying to go get to an appointment one day, in the hope you can live longer, or you get to interview to get a job …. A deterrent is acceptable and needed for those who harm others . |
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Post by jojo on Jul 27, 2024 11:54:29 GMT
bimse, I suggest you re-read my post. I was critical of the person thinking they should be allowed out of prison, just as I've been critical of many of their actions. Sometimes because I think it's an unacceptable form of protest, and other times because I think it's ineffective.
I'm an environmental scientist and chartered by the Institution of Environmental Sciences. I've put in the hard work in terms of studying our impact on the environment, but also risk communication. I find it deeply upsetting that some of the stunts are so poorly considered and destined to back-fire.
However, the reality is that the consequences of even the most poorly thought out stunts are minor compared to the consequences of climate breakdown. I accept it's extra frustrating for those directly involved, and in those moments it's not unreasonable to care more for your own hospital appointment than the lives of thousands of strangers. I don't know what possessed the campaigners not to allow at least some vehicles to pass.
People claim they accept climate change is real, and support the cause, but if you are more angry at a closed motorway than you are at the consequences of climate breakdown then you don't understand climate breakdown.
Climate breakdown has already caused flooding, drought and famine all over the world, that results in people being displaced, an increase in refugees and war. Missing a wedding is an irrelevance compared with that. Albeit the worst consequences are in poor countries and the people usually have brown skin. What's the deterrent for those who continue that harm?
And yes, people have a right to treatment, but people are held up waiting for treatment all of the time due to inadequate staffing, ambulance delays because there's no social care for those who are medically fit to leave hospital (and free up a bed), closed facilities or caught up in traffic because of break-downs or collisions because by bad driving. Not to mention the predicable consequences of Liz Truce's dodgy budget, the refusal of the last administration to negotiate with medical staff, and not forgetting the fall-out from BREXIT. So by all means, get angry at climate change protesters for the consequences of their actions, but I hope you are angry at all of the other causes of delays to treatment in proportion to the impact they have.
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Post by hannechalk on Jul 27, 2024 16:19:47 GMT
I find a delay in treatment due to a lack of beds, funding, specialists, Brexit etc completely different to missing your appointment which you are on the way to because people are blocking roads.
You're this close to finally being seen, and some inconsiderate person decides to shove their personal agenda on you, causing you to be unable to get on with your day, and get that treatment going. That is not a mild inconvenience.
Two very different things there.
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Post by Phantom of London on Jul 27, 2024 16:56:44 GMT
Why not be as obnoxious as JSO and block the roads to the wedding, so guests will miss the ceremony, or better still pour tomato soup over the bride’s white dress as she is walking down the aisle. Their level of entitlement is beyond believe. |
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Post by bimse on Jul 27, 2024 17:57:32 GMT
bimse, I suggest you re-read my post. I was critical of the person thinking they should be allowed out of prison, just as I've been critical of many of their actions. Sometimes because I think it's an unacceptable form of protest, and other times because I think it's ineffective. I'm an environmental scientist and chartered by the Institution of Environmental Sciences. I've put in the hard work in terms of studying our impact on the environment, but also risk communication. I find it deeply upsetting that some of the stunts are so poorly considered and destined to back-fire. However, the reality is that the consequences of even the most poorly thought out stunts are minor compared to the consequences of climate breakdown. I accept it's extra frustrating for those directly involved, and in those moments it's not unreasonable to care more for your own hospital appointment than the lives of thousands of strangers. I don't know what possessed the campaigners not to allow at least some vehicles to pass. People claim they accept climate change is real, and support the cause, but if you are more angry at a closed motorway than you are at the consequences of climate breakdown then you don't understand climate breakdown. Climate breakdown has already caused flooding, drought and famine all over the world, that results in people being displaced, an increase in refugees and war. Missing a wedding is an irrelevance compared with that. Albeit the worst consequences are in poor countries and the people usually have brown skin. What's the deterrent for those who continue that harm? And yes, people have a right to treatment, but people are held up waiting for treatment all of the time due to inadequate staffing, ambulance delays because there's no social care for those who are medically fit to leave hospital (and free up a bed), closed facilities or caught up in traffic because of break-downs or collisions because by bad driving. Not to mention the predicable consequences of Liz Truce's dodgy budget, the refusal of the last administration to negotiate with medical staff, and not forgetting the fall-out from BREXIT. So by all means, get angry at climate change protesters for the consequences of their actions, but I hope you are angry at all of the other causes of delays to treatment in proportion to the impact they have. [ I read your post , thank you , and I read your latest condescending passage too . Funny, it’s exactly what I knew you’d respond with. I really don’t care if you’re an environmental scientist , it’s irrelevant, as is your remark that people get their treatment delayed for many different reasons ….. this reason was DELIBERATE , and completely avoidable. Caused by entitled bullies , who think they have the right to cause harm to others, encouraged by so called intellectuals like you . You have no right whatsoever to compare the deliberate actions of a group of malicious, entitled bullies, to unfortunate delays caused by other non malicious events. I consider your attempt to link these causes of delays to be cynical in the extreme, typical of an uncaring intellectual who thinks they can talk down to people. Do not under any circumstances respond . I do not wish to communicate with despicable and cruel people . One day , it could be you trying to get treatment . |
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Post by SilverFox on Jul 27, 2024 18:20:10 GMT
Treatment possibly required because of the pollution and by-products of the fossil fuel industries? FAR more appointments have been cancelled because of the various health service strikes. Are the NHS staff "despicable and cruel people" too? Applause during lockdowns does not pay the bills.
Sadly, it is only extreme measures which get the attention - had the suffragettes not frequently broken laws, women's emancipation would have not occurred in 1928.
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Post by bimse on Jul 27, 2024 19:04:06 GMT
Treatment possibly required because of the pollution and by-products of the fossil fuel industries? FAR more appointments have been cancelled because of the various health service strikes. Are the NHS staff "despicable and cruel people" too? Applause during lockdowns does not pay the bills.
Sadly, it is only extreme measures which get the attention - had the suffragettes not frequently broken laws, women's emancipation would have not occurred in 1928.
To try and excuse the malicious actions of these entitled bullies with non malicious delays is insulting . I’m a health care worker myself who refused to strike because of harm which may occur, and who absolutely hated the cynical applause thing. So that knocks your argument on the head . I cannot understand why anyone would think that it is perfectly acceptable to cause deliberate, malicious harm to anyone who is innocent of causing climate change themselves . I’m sure you wouldn’t dare stand face to face with someone who has been harmed , and expect them to agree with your pompous , and yes, despicable and cruel argument . I hope you never have to be denied lifesaving treatment by being deliberately and maliciously hijacked. So have a good laugh , no need to respond, I’ll leave this board now as I do not wish to associate with people who think it’s acceptable to harm innocent people. |
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Post by bimse on Jul 27, 2024 19:12:13 GMT
I find a delay in treatment due to a lack of beds, funding, specialists, Brexit etc completely different to missing your appointment which you are on the way to because people are blocking roads. You're this close to finally being seen, and some inconsiderate person decides to shove their personal agenda on you, causing you to be unable to get on with your day, and get that treatment going. That is not a mild inconvenience. Two very different things there. I totally agree, there is no way the two causes can be compared, not even on an intellectual basis . One is deliberate and malicious, the other is unintentional . |
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Post by parsley1 on Jul 27, 2024 22:39:30 GMT
All good things must come to an end
People don’t last forever
Eventually earth will end its life cycle
People are only bothered at a superficial level
As they continue to reproduce
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Post by Latecomer on Jul 28, 2024 19:24:13 GMT
I find a delay in treatment due to a lack of beds, funding, specialists, Brexit etc completely different to missing your appointment which you are on the way to because people are blocking roads. You're this close to finally being seen, and some inconsiderate person decides to shove their personal agenda on you, causing you to be unable to get on with your day, and get that treatment going. That is not a mild inconvenience. Two very different things there. I totally agree, there is no way the two causes can be compared, not even on an intellectual basis . One is deliberate and malicious, the other is unintentional . Do you really think the underfunding of the NHS, austerity, the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, Brexit etc are unintentional? I think you’ll find that most of the government actions over the last few years have been intentional….and colour me cynical but I think Brexit was probably a ruse to deregulate so that the rich could get richer, rather than an attempt at helping vulnerable people (or to “take back control”). Farage is posh and rich. Of course the protests upset people - they get zero news coverage if they don’t. There was a march in London (peaceful) about the environment…thousands went…..and minimal news coverage. The history of protest is littered with people who are hated by most people in their era and people who break the law. ‘Twas always thus. |
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