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Post by Latecomer on May 8, 2023 17:25:11 GMT
In a Parliamentary-style democracy, I do prefer to make the distinction between real power and symbolic. They can wave around 1000 year-old spoons and dress in ermine all day long, but they know - as we all know - the minute they try to exercise undemocratic power it's over (it will pretty much be over with evidence of corruption). Last I'm aware a monarch tried to exercise power was Easter 1916 (which, for context, was before working class adults had a vote, so no democracy as we understand it anyway). Seem to have largely kept their noses clean and out the way since universal suffrage.
Sure, the UK can put up random two-bob politicians, celebrities, academics every five years as a HoS but, if you're only in the job for 5 years .. who are you going to choose, some washed up political no name or Elton John and David. Hardly matters, all they're going to do for 5 years is smile and shake hands. Parliament is sovereign, etc.
The House of Lords is the real game, here.
I used to think this too, but I’m afraid it’s not really true is it. Turns out lots of our laws don’t apply to Crown Estates, specifically because the royals gave them the once over and suggested that they didn’t apply to them! Look up Guardian article “Royals vetted more than 1,000 laws via Queen’s consent” |
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Post by londonpostie on May 8, 2023 17:50:44 GMT
Mainstream media trying to pretend the constitutional role of King's /Queen's Consent is some mysterious, hidden "vetting" power, is a little embarrassing. In the UK Parliamentary system, you cannot have Bills pass into laws until the HoS procedurally signs off: what chance Charles refusing the will of Parliament.
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Post by sph on May 8, 2023 18:55:17 GMT
I do wonder how one would quantify exactly how much money they supposedly generate for tourism though? Ask everyone exiting Heathrow if they're here to see the Royal family?
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Post by Mr Snow on May 8, 2023 20:02:26 GMT
Ithought there was something very fairytale-like about this photo taken from behind the two of them on the balcony looking out over the crowds. The ermine cloaks, the crowns looking unfeasibly tall, it is exactly what people unfamiliar with our monarchy think it’s all about. A friend was in London last week for business and as he was coming out of his hotel in Victoria an American couple asked him for directions to the palace. He told them where to go and as they walked ahead the woman said to guy “do you think there’s a chance we might see the King?”. I think they’re a huge pull for tourism and probably generate more revenue than they cost us. 
The argument is though - do we really need all this expensive ceremonial stuff, and keeping them all in the lap of luxury? Tourists would still come to see the castles and the palaces. As they do in France!
It is a mainstream media narrative that is peddled and repeated so much that everyone believes it to be fact.
Legoland Windsor gets more visitors than any Royal building!
Well made point vs. "I think". Well I know that Versailles in India and the Taj Mahal are no less popular despite having no king for at least a couple of centuries. In fact we recently visited 7 Royal "Palaces" in India and saw not a single Prince. The guides said in February they were likely to be in Gstaad but by June they will be in st Tropez! For Charles replace Highgrove and Sandringham; neither of which are as big a tourist earner as The Tower of London,Windsor Castle and Buck House. |
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Post by Mr Snow on May 8, 2023 20:14:56 GMT
Unfortunately The Sunday Times reporting is behind a firewall, so I can't show you how their investigation into The illegal selling of a knighthood for cash has "been stalled" since Charles got the top job. Their formal requests under the Freedom of Information act for disclosure have been illegally ignored. His two closest aides have resigned over this, saying he knew nothing. Apparently this is the first case in all of history where the fish rots from just below the head. You can get a few pointers here. www.cumnockchronicle.com/news/23144939.princes-foundation-metropolitan-police-investigation/People on here keep repeating he's not corrupt! Read the above and marvel at the fact he saw the donations and he saw the Knighthood and yet he had nothing to do with it and didn't put 2&2 together and personally sack those who resigned only once the police got involved. Look at the recent series of articles in the Guardian showing how gifts to the Royal family are suddenly not listed in the States assets. If the man at the top has his finger in various pies, believing the rules don't apply to him, is it any wonder more are developing a taste for this? |
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Post by juicy_but_terribly_drab on May 8, 2023 20:33:17 GMT
The institution is undemocratic plain and simple, it should be gone. No he's not gonna override Parliament but to say the position holds no political power isn't true. He can lobby the government about who knows what - we certainly don't know because the minutes of any meetings he has with them are not made public. Just because his views seem like they may be agreeable doesn't mean some random guy should have that much power and influence by virtue of who his mum was. Plus for all his talk of being an environmentalist he was the worst polluter of the lot of them by far and that was before he was king. All I'm saying is Paris makes plenty from tourism and look what they did to their monarchy...
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754 posts
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Post by Latecomer on May 8, 2023 21:00:30 GMT
Mainstream media trying to pretend the constitutional role of King's /Queen's Consent is some mysterious, hidden "vetting" power, is a little embarrassing. In the UK Parliamentary system, you cannot have Bills pass into laws until the HoS procedurally signs off: what chance Charles refusing the will of Parliament.
If you read this it suggests legislation is run past the crown first before they even contemplate a bill! They do have crown exemption from a lot of bits of law. Seems quite a coincidence! So no, they don’t turn down at the “consent” stage as they have already expressed opinions far earlier! www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/14/secret-papers-royals-veto-bills |
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Post by sukhavati on May 8, 2023 22:08:12 GMT
I’d much rather be stuck with a non-elected King, and for us all to be stuck with him, than be stuck with an elected $hit like Johnson, or stuck in a voted for situation like Brexit. Democracy sucks when so many of your countrymen are brainless freaks! This. Do you really want a President Farage or some other neo-Trumpist? |
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Post by mkb on May 8, 2023 23:47:03 GMT
I’d much rather be stuck with a non-elected King, and for us all to be stuck with him, than be stuck with an elected $hit like Johnson, or stuck in a voted for situation like Brexit. Democracy sucks when so many of your countrymen are brainless freaks! This. Do you really want a President Farage or some other neo-Trumpist? Of course not, but if you're using a proportional voting system, and Farage has >50% of the votes of your compatriots in the final round, who are you or I to over-rule the majority? Democracy means accepting when you lose. It also doesn't preclude you from using democratic means to overturn the result at the next election. |
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Post by eulenspiegel on May 9, 2023 0:59:23 GMT
Ithought there was something very fairytale-like about this photo taken from behind the two of them on the balcony looking out over the crowds. The ermine cloaks, the crowns looking unfeasibly tall, it is exactly what people unfamiliar with our monarchy think it’s all about. A friend was in London last week for business and as he was coming out of his hotel in Victoria an American couple asked him for directions to the palace. He told them where to go and as they walked ahead the woman said to guy “do you think there’s a chance we might see the King?”. I think they’re a huge pull for tourism and probably generate more revenue than they cost us. Watching this outdated show …I had to laugh the whole time….living and growing up in Rhineland…the similarities to carnival in Rhineland… but the Cologne Dreigestirn ..even the kids Dreigestirn are better dressed.. koelnerkarneval.de/koelner-dreigestirneand if you think of the mllions of people in Cologne, Düsseldorf, Mainz… etc. every year ..watching the parades on Rose Monday.. even their „military“ making more sense and fun as the real troups in London btw. most of the ceremonies are the same age… in 1823 the carnival military was created to make fun/ to mock the Prussian miltary… as Rhineland was kind of occupied by Prussia and was part of Prussia…totally different culture |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 9, 2023 5:16:31 GMT
Ithought there was something very fairytale-like about this photo taken from behind the two of them on the balcony looking out over the crowds. The ermine cloaks, the crowns looking unfeasibly tall, it is exactly what people unfamiliar with our monarchy think it’s all about. A friend was in London last week for business and as he was coming out of his hotel in Victoria an American couple asked him for directions to the palace. He told them where to go and as they walked ahead the woman said to guy “do you think there’s a chance we might see the King?”. I think they’re a huge pull for tourism and probably generate more revenue than they cost us. ….living and growing up in Rhineland…the similarities to carnival in Rhineland… but the Cologne Dreigestirn ..even the kids Dreigestirn are better dressed.. and if you think of the mllions of people in Cologne, Düsseldorf, Mainz… etc. every year ..watching the parades on Rose Monday.. even their „military“ making more sense and fun as the real troups in London btw. most of the ceremonies are the same age… in 1823 the carnival military was created to make fun/ to mock the Prussian miltary… as Rhineland was kind of occupied by Prussia and was part of Prussia…totally different culture You watched though… |
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Post by Peter on May 9, 2023 7:40:29 GMT
I always felt the popularity of Farage - like the man himself - to be slightly overinflated. He failed to get elected as an MP in the UK seven times I think, so not sure how a single-issue presidential bid would have gone. And UKIP getting wiped out at the elections last week indicates that schtick may have had its day...
Not too fussed on the monarchy, but any major change to how the uk political system operates would require people of the highest intelligence and integrity to develop and implement - and if Brexit (“I had no idea we import so much through the port of Dover!”) and Covid (VIP status for party political donors) taught us anything it’s that those are qualities sadly lacking in the political establishment at the moment…
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Post by eulenspiegel on May 9, 2023 9:46:22 GMT
Watching this outdated show …I had to laugh the whole time….living and growing up in Rhineland…the similarities to carnival in Rhineland… but the Cologne Dreigestirn ..even the kids Dreigestirn are better dressed.. and if you think of the mllions of people in Cologne, Düsseldorf, Mainz… etc. every year ..watching the parades on Rose Monday.. even their „military“ making more sense and fun as the real troups in London btw. most of the ceremonies are the same age… in 1823 the carnival military was created to make fun/ to mock the Prussian miltary… as Rhineland was kind of occupied by Prussia and was part of Prussia…totally different culture You watched though… but only a few minutes…the most sincere moment was Prince Harry greeting some people with a smirk „Good Morning“ when coming in… And the biggest laugh was..when I returned later at the end…realizing that the royal planned everything…Princess Anne seated in front of Prince Harry…with her monstrous ridiculous …hiding him from the cameras… |
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Post by sukhavati on May 9, 2023 11:30:37 GMT
Awww...come on...let's state the obvious and drop him into Hamilton |
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19,790 posts
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 9, 2023 14:59:01 GMT
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Post by viserys on May 9, 2023 16:03:36 GMT
I do wonder how one would quantify exactly how much money they supposedly generate for tourism though? Ask everyone exiting Heathrow if they're here to see the Royal family? OK, let me try to explain this as a foreigner in a country with no monarchy (Germany): There are countless people, mostly elderly women, who read godawful gossip rags every week that are filled with "news" from various European royal families and celebrities. The British royal family gets ALOT of press, with perhaps Monaco and Sweden (due to Queen Sylvia being German) a distant second and third. The Coronation was screened in full here over three main channels and there are endless "documentaries" about the British monarchy, too. All of this generates an interest in England as a tourist destination. People may not specically want to see royal palaces like Sandringham (hardly any German would be able to pinpoint it as a map) but it plays into the general cliche image of England and London - royal guards in red with their bearskin hats, Beefeaters at the Tower, Tea Time, black cabs, red phone boxes and so on. From there it's only a small step to book a trip to London to see all of that for themselves. Once upon a time English rock music might have been the best ambassador for England - young people in the Swinging Sixties, who wanted to see Carnaby Street, the Cavern Club in Liverpool, shop the latest fashion, see the latest bands and so on. But it's been a long time since Britain was perceived as cool and trendy and Brexit hasn't helped. So the Royal Family is one of the last things left that is constantly in the German media in a rather positive fashion, something that keeps/gets attention and draws people to visit England for all these quaint cliches they imagine. At the end of the day they may not spend much directly on the Royal Family (such as entry fees to Windsor or picking up a tea towel with King Charles on it) but they would have been what keeps England/the UK in the consciousness here. |
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Post by sph on May 10, 2023 1:34:16 GMT
So I suppose then, that they're effectively like celebrities. Like when people go to LA to see where the movie stars live.
It's interesting. The history of Kings and Queens is interesting. The fact that their family dramas are a sort of high-end soap opera to the rest of the world is interesting. I'm not saying we should get rid of them, just that the institution and the idea behind it does not sit entirely well with me.
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Post by sfsusan on May 10, 2023 22:29:19 GMT
If you choose to have a head of state and you elect them, at least the people have the power not to re-elect corrupt, useless or otherwise bad ones. And, if the people still elect them in a fair election, well that's democracy in action. In the US, people continue to re-elect corrupt, useless and otherwise bad ones because of some conviction that "their" person is doing a great job... it's everyone else's representative who's corrupt, useless, etc. |
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Post by eulenspiegel on Jun 28, 2023 9:51:48 GMT
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Post by eulenspiegel on Jun 28, 2023 9:57:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2023 21:55:10 GMT
I never had a high opinion of Charles as Prince of Wales a slightly eccentric, hypocrite who had a very privileged life. But since he has become King I have slowly grown to like him. He will always be a flawed man but above all he seems to be a good man and has done a steady job and took over seamlessly from his late mother.
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Post by sukhavati on Jun 29, 2023 1:16:18 GMT
I never had a high opinion of Charles as Prince of Wales a slightly eccentric, hypocrite who had a very privileged life. But since he has become King I have slowly grown to like him. He will always be a flawed man but above all he seems to be a good man and has done a steady job and took over seamlessly from his late mother. What's interesting is how any of us come to our opinions of them without actually knowing them. For good or ill, the media shapes public perception, with the red tops continuing their negative campaign against Harry and Meghan. I'm old enough to remember Charles being on the receiving end of similar relentless negative coverage in the 80s/90s. Clearly the popular press cycles through who is going to be on the pedestal and who is targeted for mudslinging. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 10:05:44 GMT
Princess Anne had bad press in the early 1980's as being aloof, abrupt and unpopular. Prince Edward was seen as an embarrassment and having no real role or job. But now Princess Anne is regarded as a very professional "hardest working royal" - she may be a bit brusque but she likely gets that from her father. Edward and Sophie seem to come across well and he is the only of the late Queen's children who has had a successful first marriage.
Harry was hugely popular when he married Meghan but that changed and even Andrew has been popular in his younger days.
The late Queen herself drew criticism from some quarters at times but was maybe on a pedestal to a lot and was always the constant factor for most of our lives.
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Post by lynette on Jun 30, 2023 23:17:02 GMT
I do wonder how one would quantify exactly how much money they supposedly generate for tourism though? Ask everyone exiting Heathrow if they're here to see the Royal family? OK, let me try to explain this as a foreigner in a country with no monarchy (Germany): There are countless people, mostly elderly women, who read godawful gossip rags every week that are filled with "news" from various European royal families and celebrities. The British royal family gets ALOT of press, with perhaps Monaco and Sweden (due to Queen Sylvia being German) a distant second and third. The Coronation was screened in full here over three main channels and there are endless "documentaries" about the British monarchy, too. All of this generates an interest in England as a tourist destination. People may not specically want to see royal palaces like Sandringham (hardly any German would be able to pinpoint it as a map) but it plays into the general cliche image of England and London - royal guards in red with their bearskin hats, Beefeaters at the Tower, Tea Time, black cabs, red phone boxes and so on. From there it's only a small step to book a trip to London to see all of that for themselves. Once upon a time English rock music might have been the best ambassador for England - young people in the Swinging Sixties, who wanted to see Carnaby Street, the Cavern Club in Liverpool, shop the latest fashion, see the latest bands and so on. But it's been a long time since Britain was perceived as cool and trendy and Brexit hasn't helped. So the Royal Family is one of the last things left that is constantly in the German media in a rather positive fashion, something that keeps/gets attention and draws people to visit England for all these quaint cliches they imagine. At the end of the day they may not spend much directly on the Royal Family (such as entry fees to Windsor or picking up a tea towel with King Charles on it) but they would have been what keeps England/the UK in the consciousness here. Interesting and on the whole a good analysis. But just to add that I have had chats with many taxi drivers, Ubers and black and they say that people ask to be taken to the Royal Stuff. You can visit “Buck House” like you can visit the White House. It works. The RF more or less keeps journos in their jobs, maintains the printed press and is an ongoing soap opera, entertainment. All in English the global lingo which tourists can mostly access. |
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Post by Mr Snow on Jul 20, 2023 20:59:59 GMT
Showing the acute sensitivity and compassion his supporters constantly tell us he demonstrates, at this time of straightened circumstance and national belt tightening, Ponce Charlie is limiting his pay demands to a a 45% increase.
Rejoice at this wisdom. After all the alternative could be elected and lets all fear who might get elected (for a defined and limited term).
PS I could add that I suspect that for the past month he's been on strike in support of this, but the evidence for whether he's actually at work or not is inconclusive.
PPS anyone know if the Met have made any more progress with their investigation into him selling Honours for cash, since the coronation?
God save us from the king.
(To eradicate any doubt I'd like to state I'm also highly skeptical that God is worth the name).
End of todays rant.
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