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Post by Oliver on Jan 4, 2022 0:19:54 GMT
I have only seen the original movie, not the stage play, so I don't have all the facts at my disposal. How was it originally written then? I would simply argue that if it wasn't originally written for the couple then it should have been. My argument would still stand. All the facts are at your disposal both on Google and if you even just read this thread. It was originally sung off-stage by an ensemble member. Rita Moreno singing it works fantastically if you just take a minute to stop and think about the life of her character and the circumstances in which she is singing it. Moreno isn't a strong singer anymore (arguably she never really was) but contextually her character having that number is a stroke of genius. I apologise for not researching the history of the show and the history of this thread before posting. However, what you describe is not what they did in the new movie. It's quite possible that what they conceived on stage was superior to what they did in the first movie. Since I have yet to see the original stage production, I can not judge whether that is the case or not. I can only say that I prefer what they did in the first movie to what they did in the second movie. A stroke of genius? I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. |
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Post by karloscar on Jan 4, 2022 1:27:44 GMT
So you know better than Robbins, Bernstein, Sondheim and Laurents? That's some ego! I don't understand what you mean. Are you suggesting that these guys are simply beyond criticism, that everyone has to agree with every single creative decision they make? Are you saying that everyone must love West Side Story (I do incidentally) or otherwise they have an enormous ego? Nobody is beyond criticism, but they were four professionals at the top of their game and you claim to know better than they did regarding how Somewhere should be used in the show they created. An arrogant position by anyone's standards. Clear enough for you? |
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Post by anthony40 on Jan 4, 2022 8:20:41 GMT
Guys, this is now turning nasty.
Moderators have been made aware.
Lets keep it back on track.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jan 4, 2022 8:43:01 GMT
Can we direct comments at the film and creatives instead of other members please.
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Post by stagebyte on Jan 4, 2022 11:22:26 GMT
Whilst I enjoyed the film, dare I say (running against the tide here) it seems a little overhyped? For me it lacked energy. There seemed a lot less dancing in the film?
While I can appreciate the opening as a scrappy tough true to life fight I did miss the usual finger clicking balletic ensemble build up to it. Cool also left me ... erm...cold. Awful lot of jumping over holes and swinging off scenery not a lot of dancing. Loved Bernardo and Anita. Tony’s voice in Maria and Something’s coming seemed to lack vital energy and oomph needed for both songs in driving the narrative forward. I’m not sure the violent prison back story they gave Tony convinced me or left me with the usual empathy I would feel for him in the fight scene. It became less about defending Riff more spontaneously as is usually portrayed to an inevitable ending for a violent thug. Although I have to say Ansel Elgort while a dreamy heart throb convinced less on the juvenile delinquent front. Not a casting choice I would’ve picked.
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Post by longinthetooth on Jan 4, 2022 11:27:17 GMT
BBC Radio 2 have the new soundtrack as their Album of the Week. I've listened to a couple of tracks on Ken Bruce's show, and have to say not impressed with what I've heard so far. Maybe they come across better in the actual film.
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Post by Oliver on Jan 4, 2022 12:32:23 GMT
I don't understand what you mean. Are you suggesting that these guys are simply beyond criticism, that everyone has to agree with every single creative decision they make? Are you saying that everyone must love West Side Story (I do incidentally) or otherwise they have an enormous ego? Nobody is beyond criticism, but they were four professionals at the top of their game and you claim to know better than they did regarding how Somewhere should be used in the show they created. An arrogant position by anyone's standards. Clear enough for you? I am quite happy to criticise a creative decision by any artist no matter who they are, and that includes some of the greatest composers and writers in history. To criticise them is not to claim "I could do better than them", so it is not an arrogant position at all. This is a far more reasonable position than to assume that because a creative decision has been taken by X composer, or X group of creatives, it must be good. The critic Pauline Kale disliked West Side Story, and had lots of criticisms about the show which I disagree with. I don't see her as being arrogant. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2022 12:38:02 GMT
All the facts are at your disposal both on Google and if you even just read this thread. It was originally sung off-stage by an ensemble member. Rita Moreno singing it works fantastically if you just take a minute to stop and think about the life of her character and the circumstances in which she is singing it. Moreno isn't a strong singer anymore (arguably she never really was) but contextually her character having that number is a stroke of genius. I apologise for not researching the history of the show and the history of this thread before posting. However, what you describe is not what they did in the new movie. It's quite possible that what they conceived on stage was superior to what they did in the first movie. Since I have yet to see the original stage production, I can not judge whether that is the case or not. I can only say that I prefer what they did in the first movie to what they did in the second movie. A stroke of genius? I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. What? I know it isn't what they did in the new film, I've seen it. Are you saying that for some reason they should have copied the stage production? I'm rather confused. You're entitled to prefer whatever you wish, but whether it is the same as the first film or the stage production or not is irrelevant to that. |
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Post by Oliver on Jan 4, 2022 12:53:37 GMT
I apologise for not researching the history of the show and the history of this thread before posting. However, what you describe is not what they did in the new movie. It's quite possible that what they conceived on stage was superior to what they did in the first movie. Since I have yet to see the original stage production, I can not judge whether that is the case or not. I can only say that I prefer what they did in the first movie to what they did in the second movie. A stroke of genius? I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. What? I know it isn't what they did in the new film, I've seen it. Are you saying that for some reason they should have copied the stage production? I'm rather confused. You're entitled to prefer whatever you wish, but whether it is the same as the first film or the stage production or not is irrelevant to that. Thanks for your reply. No, I'm not saying they should have copied the stage production. I haven't seen the stage production so I don't know whether this scene was handled better or worse on stage. I was only making a comparison between the original movie and the second. The comparisons are only relevant in that the second movie is a remake of the first, and I consider some of the creative decisions that were made for the first movie to be superior to those in the second. I also consider some of the creative decisions in the second to be superior to the first. Much though I enjoyed the new version of West Side Story, I don't see it as definitive. For me, that would for me be somewhere in between the two films. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2022 15:35:04 GMT
The comparisons are only relevant in that the second movie is a remake of the first. Ah well that explains it then. The creative team have been quite clear (watch any interview with them on Youtube) that the 2021 film is not a remake of the 1961 film. It is a remake of the 1957 stage production and is in many ways much closer to that show than the 1961 film is. |
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Post by Oliver on Jan 4, 2022 18:14:09 GMT
The comparisons are only relevant in that the second movie is a remake of the first. Ah well that explains it then. The creative team have been quite clear (watch any interview with them on Youtube) that the 2021 film is not a remake of the 1961 film. It is a remake of the 1957 stage production and is in many ways much closer to that show than the 1961 film is. It's a remake of the existing movie simply because the original movie exists. They are trying to make the movie closer to the stage version, sure. So they remake the movie with this goal in mind. I haven't seen any critic ignore the original 1961 film when critiquing the new one. Of course it invites comparison. The duet version of "Something" works better dramatically on film in my view. How it was on stage I don't know. |
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Post by karloscar on Jan 4, 2022 19:56:59 GMT
Ah well that explains it then. The creative team have been quite clear (watch any interview with them on Youtube) that the 2021 film is not a remake of the 1961 film. It is a remake of the 1957 stage production and is in many ways much closer to that show than the 1961 film is. It's a remake of the existing movie simply because the original movie exists. They are trying to make the movie closer to the stage version, sure. So they remake the movie with this goal in mind. I haven't seen any critic ignore the original 1961 film when critiquing the new one. Of course it invites comparison. The duet version of "Something" works better dramatically on film in my view. How it was on stage I don't know. If you've never seen a stage production of West Side Story, how can you tell how it might compare to either film version? You seem very sure you're right about things that you admit to having little knowledge of. |
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Post by Oliver on Jan 4, 2022 20:09:51 GMT
It's a remake of the existing movie simply because the original movie exists. They are trying to make the movie closer to the stage version, sure. So they remake the movie with this goal in mind. I haven't seen any critic ignore the original 1961 film when critiquing the new one. Of course it invites comparison. The duet version of "Something" works better dramatically on film in my view. How it was on stage I don't know. If you've never seen a stage production of West Side Story, how can you tell how it might compare to either film version? You seem very sure you're right about things that you admit to having little knowledge of. I don't know how it would compare. As I said before, I'm only making a comparison between the second movie and the first. However, if I went to see the stage version and didn't think the scene was as powerful as in the first movie, that would be an equally valid opinion to have. However, I haven't seen the stage version so I don't know what I would think of it by comparison. |
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Post by scarpia on Jan 5, 2022 16:39:48 GMT
Didn't Laurents' Broadway revival include 'Somewhere' as an onstage duet? I don't know what the last, prematurely aborted Broadway revival chose to do.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jan 8, 2022 14:30:10 GMT
I’m just re-watching the feature length documentary on YouTube about the making of the Jose Carreras/Kiri Tekanawa recording where Leonard Bernstein conducts. Fascinating to see the machinations of it all being put together, not to mention the spats!
It’s in the KiriOnLine channel, or just search Bernstein West Story and that should find it.
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Post by couldileaveyou on Jan 10, 2022 10:17:01 GMT
It won best motion picture (musical or comedy), best actress (Zegler) & supporting actress (DeBose) at the Golden Globe
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Post by inthenose on Jan 10, 2022 14:49:30 GMT
And very well deserved too, Rachel Zegler is absolutely wonderful and the film is a joy. I have the CD, the hardback book and saw it three times at the cinema. Brilliant.
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Post by Oliver on Jan 10, 2022 15:14:01 GMT
And very well deserved too, Rachel Zegler is absolutely wonderful and the film is a joy. I have the CD, the hardback book and saw it three times at the cinema. Brilliant. I wouldn't get too carried away. There's a lot wrong with the film though certain elements are an improvement on the first film. Spielberg is all style no substance. |
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Post by inthenose on Jan 10, 2022 15:52:41 GMT
And very well deserved too, Rachel Zegler is absolutely wonderful and the film is a joy. I have the CD, the hardback book and saw it three times at the cinema. Brilliant. I wouldn't get too carried away. There's a lot wrong with the film though certain elements are an improvement on the first film. Spielberg is all style no substance. Why did you reply to me with this? Why attempt "correcting" my opinion about a movie I've already decided is one of my favourite movie musicals of all time? I strongly disagree and thought the movie was a masterpiece, which is why I saw it three times, as I just said. Taking your point at face value, I would say I'm pretty sure Mr. Spielberg has done well enough for himself with his three Oscar wins (seven nominations), including creating seminal classics such as E.T. and Schindler's List. I don't agree with your assertion in a general sense, either. You have form for consistently doing exactly this in the "Cinderella" chat, where you've repeatedly attempted to "educate" other users on why their opinion is wrong, and yours is right. You really ought to stop. |
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Post by ladidah on Jan 10, 2022 16:18:34 GMT
How can someone get 'too carried away' when it's their opinion!?
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Post by danb on Jan 10, 2022 16:44:34 GMT
How can someone get 'too carried away' when it's their opinion!? If it isn’t the same as his. |
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Post by anthem on Jan 10, 2022 17:26:15 GMT
Good for Ariana, she deserves it. I thought Rachel and Ansel sang very well but I was not a bit convinced that they were in an intoxicating love affair. Perhaps it's just how the piece is written but the thing falls apart if the central characters and their relationship is not believable, which for me, it wasn't. Maria seemed mostly indifferent to what happened to her brother, it just didn't add up. They managed to sell the story better in the original, I thought?
I still think it's one of the best movie musicals in the last few years but expected better from the leads, particularly when so much time and effort was spent finding them. The score sounded great and the dancing and cinematography were fab and loved Rita Moreno's "Somewhere." Gee Officer Krubke was good. Ariana stole it for me. It was treat to see it on the big screen, but wouldn't give it a rave like some others here have.
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Post by Oliver on Jan 10, 2022 17:33:44 GMT
I wouldn't get too carried away. There's a lot wrong with the film though certain elements are an improvement on the first film. Spielberg is all style no substance. Why did you reply to me with this? Why attempt "correcting" my opinion about a movie I've already decided is one of my favourite movie musicals of all time? I strongly disagree and thought the movie was a masterpiece, which is why I saw it three times, as I just said. Taking your point at face value, I would say I'm pretty sure Mr. Spielberg has done well enough for himself with his three Oscar wins (seven nominations), including creating seminal classics such as E.T. and Schindler's List. I don't agree with your assertion in a general sense, either. You have form for consistently doing exactly this in the "Cinderella" chat, where you've repeatedly attempted to "educate" other users on why their opinion is wrong, and yours is right. You really ought to stop. My post was a bit too flippant, apologies. That's great that you enjoyed it so much. I enjoyed the movie as well but had reservations. |
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Post by ThereWillBeSun on Jan 10, 2022 17:45:16 GMT
I've never seen the stage show, original or this - but I think I would watch it just for Ariana and Rachel. They also come across very genuine and humble. I'm excited to see where both of their careers go.
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Post by Oliver on Jan 11, 2022 18:21:00 GMT
Taking your point at face value, I would say I'm pretty sure Mr. Spielberg has done well enough for himself with his three Oscar wins (seven nominations), including creating seminal classics such as E.T. and Schindler's List. I don't agree with your assertion in a general sense, either. I'm not quite prepared to let this one slip under the radar, though. I judge a director, actor, author, entertainer etc. not on the awards they've won, nor their critical claim, nor their popular appeal, but on the work itself. I make my own judgements, I don't rely on others to make them for me. I'm sure you would say the same for yourself. If Spielberg had won no Oscars and no nominations but had produced the same output, would you think any less of him? You mentioned my contributions to the Cinderella thread in your post, but you will note that I have never defended ALW with appeals to his awards, achievements, or popularity. For me, it's simply not a valid argument. I don't agree with you about the two movies you mention. Schindler's List deals with sensitive issues in a superficial way. The fabricated ending with Schindler expressing his regret that he 'couldn't do more for the Jews' is crass beyond belief (in my opinion). E.T. is entertaining for children but, for me, ruined by its abundance of sentimentality. To practice what you preach you must accept that I, too, am entitled to my opinion when it comes to Spielberg's films. |
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