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Post by Jan on May 22, 2020 8:02:48 GMT
Juliet Stevenson and others were on Front Row on BBC2 at 7pm discussing the future of theatre. She didn't think it would restart till next Spring. Why next Spring ? What does she think will be different then ? It is not useful just to mention dates, she should mention the actual conditions that she thinks need to apply before reopening. Austria is reopening theatres in stages based on audience size, up to 500 by August the first. They are about a month ahead of UK, but you could argue that with fewer having had the virus there the risk is higher than in London. One difference there is that the theatre industry is actively lobbying the government strongly to re-open - I don't see that here at all, I haven't seen a single theatre pushing to re-open, just requests for money.
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Post by Jan on May 22, 2020 8:13:32 GMT
My heart says yes like a shot - missing theatre badly. The sensible head part of me which knows how badly I react to any form of medication (even paracetamol) and remembers just how ill I was with swine flu says don't even think about it. Trouble is I always did let my heart rule my head................................... Just out of interest, and off topic really, how would you feel about taking a vaccine which has been rushed through with - by definition - no data on any medium- or long-term side-effects it may have ? I wouldn't be rushing to have it.
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Post by clair on May 22, 2020 8:18:30 GMT
I wouldn't dare - as I react badly to even paracetamol, am allergic to penicillin, antihistamine, ibuprofen, whatever the next thing down from penicillin's called and a dental sedation leaves me out cold for three days I'm not really up for anything that isn't necessary! If I didn't have any of that I might consider it but difficult to say when I know that medically I'd be told to wait anyhow.
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Post by crowblack on May 22, 2020 8:23:42 GMT
One difference there is that the theatre industry is actively lobbying the government strongly to re-open - I don't see that here at all, I haven't seen a single theatre pushing to re-open, just requests for money. With a virus that is disproportionately killing poorer and BAME people, maybe British theatre doesn't want to be a sector that contributes to the endangerment of those lives, especially as places like the Royal Court, NT and smaller theatres like to think of themselves as places that encourage diverse theatremakers and audiences rather than the typical white middle class broadsheet crowd? And is theatre something people can afford to go to right now? Most of the people I know who work in the arts/media and go to the theatre are freelancers and currently workless, or working from home and homeschooling. It's not like they could ask their grandparents or neighbours to come over to mind the kids while they go out for the evening, assuming they still had the energy. Meanwhile, if the West End relies heavily on tourism both within and beyond the UK, there's not much point in it reopening either.
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Post by Jan on May 22, 2020 8:29:36 GMT
One difference there is that the theatre industry is actively lobbying the government strongly to re-open - I don't see that here at all, I haven't seen a single theatre pushing to re-open, just requests for money. With a virus that is disproportionately killing poorer and BAME people, maybe British theatre doesn't want to be a sector that contributes to the endangerment of those lives, especially as places like the Royal Court, NT and smaller theatres like to think of themselves as places that encourage diverse theatremakers and audiences rather than the typical white middle class broadsheet crowd? And is theatre something people can afford to go to right now? Most of the people I know who work in the arts/media and go to the theatre are freelancers and currently workless, or working from home and homeschooling. It's not like they could ask their grandparents or neighbours to come over to mind the kids while they go out for the evening, assuming they still had the energy. Meanwhile, if the West End relies heavily on tourism both within and beyond the UK, there's not much point in it reopening either. Fine. They should say that. "We don't want to re-open currently". But then they need to also say the conditions that need to apply before they would reopen. At the moment they are saying nothing. This sets them apart from other leisure sector companies like cinemas, pubs, restaurants which have all indicated some level of enthusiasm to get opened and have published plans as to what that might look like.
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Post by Jan on May 22, 2020 8:38:24 GMT
If this is what we have to look forward to I'd rather not go I was just looking at tickets for a show in Amsterdam, the theatre holds nearly 1000 but they're selling less than 100 tickets... Looks like the Lyric Hammersmith circa 1990.
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Post by glossie on May 22, 2020 8:48:00 GMT
Juliet Stevenson and others were on Front Row on BBC2 at 7pm discussing the future of theatre. She didn't think it would restart till next Spring. Why next Spring ? What does she think will be different then ? It is not useful just to mention dates, she should mention the actual conditions that she thinks need to apply before reopening. In response to a question, she said that she should have been doing a play later this year but had been told by the producers that it was unlikely now to happen before next spring.
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Post by Jan on May 22, 2020 8:53:24 GMT
Why next Spring ? What does she think will be different then ? It is not useful just to mention dates, she should mention the actual conditions that she thinks need to apply before reopening. In response to a question, she said that she should have been doing a play later this year but had been told by the producers that it was unlikely now to happen before next spring. Oh OK, that's slightly different then, my question would be directed at the producers and in that case it matters a lot if they are in the commercial or subsidised sectors because I expect their outlooks are different. Just commercially, due to foreign tourism, their horizon for opening may be longer.
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Post by londonpostie on May 22, 2020 9:00:30 GMT
With a virus that is disproportionately killing poorer and BAME people
If you said whites had a lower death rate becasue they were better shielded by remote working (inc. no public transport) and non-key worker employment it might be more relevant. The middle class stayed home, because they could.
Unclear how this is a factor in this discussion
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Post by Jan on May 22, 2020 9:08:37 GMT
With a virus that is disproportionately killing poorer and BAME people
If you said whites had a lower death rate becasue they were better shielded by remote working (inc. no public transport) and non-key worker employment it might be more relevant. The middle class stayed home, because they could.
Unclear how this is a factor in this discussion
Actually the most numerous at-risk group in the NT audiences I have seen are white men over 65. As I see it the problem in getting theatres back is not so much the audience, if they opened today with reduced capacity I'd go and by extension I imagine enough other people would go too, but rather the creatives and specifically the actors - I'd like to hear from them in the same way we hear from teachers to hear what their specific concerns are, and what their proposals for addressing those are.
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Post by londonpostie on May 22, 2020 9:20:39 GMT
Stats say over 70s should be shielding until a vaccine so don't really see them as part of the discussion. Brutal as it is, their route out of this seems the clearest.
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Post by basdfg on May 22, 2020 9:43:25 GMT
Denmark reopening theatres but with social distancing.
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Post by crowblack on May 22, 2020 9:47:17 GMT
If you said whites had a lower death rate becasue they were better shielded by remote working (inc. no public transport) and non-key worker employment it might be more relevant. The middle class stayed home, because they could.
Unclear how this is a factor in this discussion
It's a factor that has been discussed regarding sports (google it!) with some BAME footballers unhappy with an early return, multigenerational households also being a factor here. Prolonged exposure to the virus appears to be a factor with severity of your illness, so 2 or 3 hours sitting next to someone with it is worse than a brief encounter in other work conditions, and sport and theatre are both leisure activities and not worth risking lives for.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 13:31:41 GMT
Juliet Stevenson and others were on Front Row on BBC2 at 7pm discussing the future of theatre. She didn't think it would restart till next Spring. Why next Spring ? What does she think will be different then ? It is not useful just to mention dates, she should mention the actual conditions that she thinks need to apply before reopening. Austria is reopening theatres in stages based on audience size, up to 500 by August the first. They are about a month ahead of UK, but you could argue that with fewer having had the virus there the risk is higher than in London. One difference there is that the theatre industry is actively lobbying the government strongly to re-open - I don't see that here at all, I haven't seen a single theatre pushing to re-open, just requests for money. Dr Jan, am not sure I agree with all you say - but you do raise an interesting and important point. Forgetting whether it would be right or wrong, theatres really are not lobbying to reopen in the same way that most of the rest of the leisure sector is. Which is odd.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 13:42:15 GMT
Playing devil's advocate here.
Another thought. What are people really expecting to be different in the Autumn or in Spring 2021?
It is my personal view that we will not have an effective vaccine even a year from now. Based on a) previous attempts at vaccines for coronaviruses and b) how long it takes to create any safe, effective, mass produced vaccine for anything. I'd LOVE to be wrong. But that's what I think.
In which case, what difference does it make if theatres open tomorrow, September, or February? I mean, hopefully track and trace will be better by then, but otherwise not much I'd argue.
In fact you could say opening tomorrow would be much safer than September or February, as the lock down we have just had has been pretty successful and as it is released, the R number can only rise. Hopefully not by much but rise it will.
(I mean same with schools - they will be safer in June than in September).
Now am not saying we should be rushing in to fill theatres immediately. But I do think there needs to be a bit of suck it and see. And the government and theatre industry could work much more proactively together. Keep the bars closed, open auditorium at same time as building, maybe aim for 50% capacity, facemasks, temperature checks, whatever etc etc. Come up with some suggestions! It would be nice to see something proactive. And then of course the GBP can make their own decisions about whether they want to go or not. We are all adults.
I DO appreciate it's not simple. And I often change my own mind about what should be done. And yes, I agree with most, we need to wait a little bit longer. But not indefinitely. They can't pin everything on 'let's wait for a vaccine' or 'it's impossible to social distance in a theatre' or we could be here forever.
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Post by theatreian on May 22, 2020 14:00:51 GMT
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Post by Jon on May 22, 2020 14:12:53 GMT
Are drive-ins a thing in the UK? Will be interesting if it works.
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Post by crowblack on May 22, 2020 14:55:55 GMT
Playing devil's advocate here. Another thought. What are people really expecting to be different in the Autumn or in Spring 2021? More knowledge of the disease, a pooling of experience about the best ways to treat it, a health drive to improve public health (poor BMI, diabetes and vitamin D levels all seem to be factors and these can be mitigated to some degree), greater herd immunity to reduce transmission, not creating a new spike going into the regular winter flu period which already increases pressure on the NHS.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 15:04:50 GMT
Playing devil's advocate here. Another thought. What are people really expecting to be different in the Autumn or in Spring 2021? More knowledge of the disease, a pooling of experience about the best ways to treat it, a health drive to improve public health (poor BMI, diabetes and vitamin C levels all seem to be factors and these can be mitigated to some degree), greater herd immunity to reduce transmission, not creating a new spike going into the regular winter flu period which already increases pressure on the NHS. Yup, all true to an extent. The UK's average BMI and T2DM burden won't change in a year though. And herd immunity, if R stays where it is will not provide much difference. But certainly we will have more medical experience which can only be positive. In terms of avoiding winter flu - well either we go for now, or we wait until next March ish before actors can even audition again.... As I say though, I am playing devil's advocate here and providing a different viewpoint - I'm not saying I think it's right to prepare to get back into business now. But I think any changes other than a vaccine are small fry.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 22, 2020 15:05:18 GMT
Thought they came back and said they got it wrong and the software wasn't working
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 22, 2020 15:11:43 GMT
In response to a question, she said that she should have been doing a play later this year but had been told by the producers that it was unlikely now to happen before next spring. Oh OK, that's slightly different then, my question would be directed at the producers and in that case it matters a lot if they are in the commercial or subsidised sectors because I expect their outlooks are different. Just commercially, due to foreign tourism, their horizon for opening may be longer. I love the thought that Juliet Stevenson is now my spokesperson for health matters and ending lockdown
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Post by n1david on May 22, 2020 15:13:30 GMT
Oh OK, that's slightly different then, my question would be directed at the producers and in that case it matters a lot if they are in the commercial or subsidised sectors because I expect their outlooks are different. Just commercially, due to foreign tourism, their horizon for opening may be longer. I love the thought that Juliet Stevenson is now my spokesperson for health matters and ending lockdown Well she was The Doctor (and maybe will be again next year) - no, not THAT Doctor!
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Post by crowblack on May 22, 2020 15:56:46 GMT
The UK's average BMI and T2DM burden won't change in a year though Well I've lost a stone since lockdown began, mainly because it's harder to get bread, dairy and snacks.
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Post by HereForTheatre on May 22, 2020 16:30:01 GMT
One theatre not re-opening will be the Haymarket Leicester. Just announced it's gone into liquidation. This is a venue that only just re-opened a few years ago and hasn't built a big enough reserve or audience to survive this. Such a shame. It was great for Leicester to have two major theatres. I'm hoping it can be saved.
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Post by Dawnstar on May 22, 2020 16:39:31 GMT
I guess I can write off ever getting a refund for the cancelled Curtains back in March then. I'd never actually been in the theatre, that would have been my first visit as I've only been to the Curve in Leicester previously.
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Post by djp on May 22, 2020 17:23:08 GMT
More knowledge of the disease, a pooling of experience about the best ways to treat it, a health drive to improve public health (poor BMI, diabetes and vitamin C levels all seem to be factors and these can be mitigated to some degree), greater herd immunity to reduce transmission, not creating a new spike going into the regular winter flu period which already increases pressure on the NHS. Yup, all true to an extent. The UK's average BMI and T2DM burden won't change in a year though. And herd immunity, if R stays where it is will not provide much difference. But certainly we will have more medical experience which can only be positive. In terms of avoiding winter flu - well either we go for now, or we wait until next March ish before actors can even audition again.... As I say though, I am playing devil's advocate here and providing a different viewpoint - I'm not saying I think it's right to prepare to get back into business now. But I think any changes other than a vaccine are small fry. Indeed herd immunity will take for ever at 3- 5% infected rates, and slow spread. . Its the vaccine we need , and you would hope that with so many vaccines , based on alternative approaches one will work, even if like flu you need regular top ups. the other possibility is that one of the medical blocking treatments can be taken before infection.
Theatre faces specific problems according to some of the research on spread coming out, if its right. This theory, based on tracing the path of transmission via genetic testing of the virus in different victims , suggest that most spread has been by relatively few people in specific situations. Meet outside in sunshine and with normal airflow and your chances of the virus spreading to you go down by a factor of 17. Put the same people in an enclosed space indoors and you have a problem. Add on activity that creates expelled air and viral particles with some force behind them - in the form of loud speaking , singing, or, heavy ,exercise induced, breathing, and you end up with complete choirs and exercise classes going down with covid19. That argues for social distancing to be maintained at a strong level in theatres, which may be impractical and uneconomic, and as the letter to the telegraph points out incompatible with the plot on stage.
There's also the practicalities. Much of a winter audience have coughs- whose going to sit in a room of coughing people? Transport into Cities will be limited by distancing, so how does much of the audience reliably get there? Public toilets are usually unpleasant, and in confined airless spaces , but how does an audience survive without one? How do you exit and enter without forming a crowd inside or outside? And how can you make the money add up with no tourists and social distancing shredding seat numbers?
Basically, you need government to step in and keep things together until they can reopen again. The medium to long term economics clearly support that. And in the meantime you need to think of something for actors, who tend to be bright, capable, people to do filling in gaps in sectors like education and other public services.
There's also more that could be offered on line. Those of us who know who we think is good, and would pay to see or listen to them on line, would be happy to see more online concerts, or even plays. The problem is that we don't really have enough knowledge in the potential audience audience of who is good,or whats available online , Its much easier to produce one of the brilliant collaborative covers of one song than something longer, and the economics are against producers putting the effort in for what may be too small a return.
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Post by n1david on May 22, 2020 18:28:09 GMT
I guess I can write off ever getting a refund for the cancelled Curtains back in March then. Time to talk to your credit/debit card company if you paid with plastic.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 22, 2020 18:35:20 GMT
I guess I can write off ever getting a refund for the cancelled Curtains back in March then. I'd never actually been in the theatre, that would have been my first visit as I've only been to the Curve in Leicester previously. The money is yours. If you’re waiting for the theatre to facilitate it, it won’t happen. Understandably they’re not going to give refunds unless they have to. If you want your money back Dawnstar you’ll need to contact them and tell them. If they dont respond then go to your credit card company. You’ll get it back , eventually.
Some production companies are relying on people giving up on the refund process and writing off the money they paid. This is understandable and if you want to give them the money great. If not, get it back.
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Post by londonpostie on May 22, 2020 20:00:39 GMT
Yep Dawnstar , chase them up! I started doing that last week and today got another back - the ROH for La Boheme which was due this coming Monday. The Coliseum/ENO are the most late-payers for me, still not coughed up for the jilted Marriage of Figaro (on 19th March!). Other than that just waiting for Love Theatre, who have a stated but delayed policy and things are in the pipeline.
In all I had 27 to sort out up to the end of July - whole range of outcomes inc. donations, credits, refunds, keep for rebooking ..
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Post by Dawnstar on May 22, 2020 21:02:54 GMT
If you want your money back Dawnstar you’ll need to contact them and tell them. If they dont respond then go to your credit card company. You’ll get it back , eventually. Yep Dawnstar , chase them up! I started doing that last week and today got another back - the ROH for La Boheme which was due this coming Monday. How can I contact a company that has gone into administration though? Surely they won't have anyone working for them now, if they can't pay them? The website still has the "do not contact the box office" message that has been up since the theatres closed.
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