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Post by FairyGodmother on Apr 24, 2022 11:09:08 GMT
I don't think it was a secret about the orchestrations for Cinderella — when they were publicising Cinderella ALW talked about how David Wilson had moved in with him to do it, and there were some videos of them together on social media. I noticed particularly because I thought he was good looking it was interesting, and I wondered how orchestrating all computationally, without hearing it ever played by an actual orchestra would end up sounding. http://instagram.com/p/CAYJL5AIMWG http://instagram.com/p/CBvXX8aiDsd |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2022 11:54:16 GMT
Are we forgetting 'School Of Rock' here? I hated School of Rock. |
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Post by scarpia on Apr 24, 2022 12:36:26 GMT
As mentioned, Wilson orchestrated Cinderella. I can't remember now who did orchestrate the original concept albums of Evita and JCS. ALW himself certainly had some input but the main work of it wasn't done by him. That doesn't mean I think any less of his work for those scores, as they're two of my all-time favourites and I rate both extremely highly. I really don't mind if someone else orchestrated them, but I do wonder why he felt the need to block out any credit for their input. The MT musicians circle isn't a rumour in the sense that I had it from some very reliable sources, I just don't want to name names. But given I'm not going to identify them, I can understand why you wouldn't want to believe me on this and that's fine. Thanks for your reply. I believe you and I believe them, the only question in my mind is what the basis of the information is, and whether there may be some misunderstanding which has arisen from it. For example, could it be that ALW designed the orchestrations but delegated some of the part writing to others? In that case, they may have had some input but he would have deserved orchestrator credit in my view. This later gets translated by people to 'so and so wrote the orchestrations'. I doubt that David Wilson and others would be happy to let their own work be credited to someone else. I don't think David Wilson would have a choice. It's not like he has equal bargaining power with RUG. It would no doubt be written into his contract. If David Cullen (who says in Coveney's biography that he doesn't believe ALW deserves a credit as co-orchestrator for the shows Cullen has orchestrated) can't secure a sole credit for orchestrations, there's no way David Wilson will. |
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Post by Oliver on Apr 24, 2022 13:24:50 GMT
I don't think it was a secret about the orchestrations for Cinderella — when they were publicising Cinderella ALW talked about how David Wilson had moved in with him to do it, and there were some videos of them together on social media. I noticed particularly because I thought he was good looking it was interesting, and I wondered how orchestrating all computationally, without hearing it ever played by an actual orchestra would end up sounding. http://instagr.am/p/CAYJL5AIMWG http://instagr.am/p/CBvXX8aiDsd Nowhere in the video does it say that Wilson is orchestrating it. As he's the musical director, ALW will be discussing musical ideas with him. That's part of the collaborative process. It doesn't mean that ALW isn't orchestrating Cinderella. |
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Post by Oliver on Apr 24, 2022 13:37:04 GMT
Thanks for your reply. I believe you and I believe them, the only question in my mind is what the basis of the information is, and whether there may be some misunderstanding which has arisen from it. For example, could it be that ALW designed the orchestrations but delegated some of the part writing to others? In that case, they may have had some input but he would have deserved orchestrator credit in my view. This later gets translated by people to 'so and so wrote the orchestrations'. I doubt that David Wilson and others would be happy to let their own work be credited to someone else. I don't think David Wilson would have a choice. It's not like he has equal bargaining power with RUG. It would no doubt be written into his contract. If David Cullen (who says in Coveney's biography that he doesn't believe ALW deserves a credit as co-orchestrator for the shows Cullen has orchestrated) can't secure a sole credit for orchestrations, there's no way David Wilson will. A co-orchestrator credit is more of a grey area, but even in that account Cullen says ALW was involved in the orchestrations, but argued that this was more an offshoot of being the composer of the musical and being able to direct proceedings (which could actually warrant a co-orchestrator credit depending on one's perspective), In the case of Cinderella, ALW may have composed the parts he wanted the orchestra to play, and David Wilson may have then transcribed and programmed them, carried out some of the more practical work. This would make ALW the orchestrator of Cinderella and would also explain the rumour. This is a far, far more likely explanation than ALW deliberately, knowingly stealing credit from someone else who simply stands by and says nothing. And even this is speculative. |
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Post by scarpia on Apr 24, 2022 14:41:08 GMT
I don't think David Wilson would have a choice. It's not like he has equal bargaining power with RUG. It would no doubt be written into his contract. If David Cullen (who says in Coveney's biography that he doesn't believe ALW deserves a credit as co-orchestrator for the shows Cullen has orchestrated) can't secure a sole credit for orchestrations, there's no way David Wilson will. A co-orchestrator credit is more of a grey area, but even in that account Cullen says ALW was involved in the orchestrations, but argued that this was more an offshoot of being the composer of the musical and being able to direct proceedings (which could actually warrant a co-orchestrator credit depending on one's perspective), In the case of Cinderella, ALW may have composed the parts he wanted the orchestra to play, and David Wilson may have then transcribed and programmed them, carried out some of the more practical work. This would make ALW the orchestrator of Cinderella and would also explain the rumour. This is a far, far more likely explanation than ALW deliberately, knowingly stealing credit from someone else who simply stands by and says nothing. And even this is speculative. So, from my understanding, ALW generally just provides his orchestrators (or 'co-orchestrators', as they are billed in his shows) with lead sheets. These will contain the melody, harmony, counterpoint and other musical ideas, but I don't see how this is any different to what, say, Sondheim used to provide Jonathan Tunick with. Speaking of Sondheim, when he was asked about this at a Q&A at the National, his reply was this: BTW, I checked my previous correspondence with someone on this and it's confirmed that, contractually, it's stipulated in all ALW contracts with his 'co-orchestrators' that he either takes first or sole credit. Also, in all his post-Tim Rice shows he takes first credit above the lyricist. This doesn't apply to the Rice shows, however, where you will see that Rice always has first credit to this day. |
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Post by Oliver on Apr 24, 2022 19:07:48 GMT
A co-orchestrator credit is more of a grey area, but even in that account Cullen says ALW was involved in the orchestrations, but argued that this was more an offshoot of being the composer of the musical and being able to direct proceedings (which could actually warrant a co-orchestrator credit depending on one's perspective), In the case of Cinderella, ALW may have composed the parts he wanted the orchestra to play, and David Wilson may have then transcribed and programmed them, carried out some of the more practical work. This would make ALW the orchestrator of Cinderella and would also explain the rumour. This is a far, far more likely explanation than ALW deliberately, knowingly stealing credit from someone else who simply stands by and says nothing. And even this is speculative. So, from my understanding, ALW generally just provides his orchestrators (or 'co-orchestrators', as they are billed in his shows) with lead sheets. These will contain the melody, harmony, counterpoint and other musical ideas, but I don't see how this is any different to what, say, Sondheim used to provide Jonathan Tunick with. Speaking of Sondheim, when he was asked about this at a Q&A at the National, his reply was this: BTW, I checked my previous correspondence with someone on this and it's confirmed that, contractually, it's stipulated in all ALW contracts with his 'co-orchestrators' that he either takes first or sole credit. Also, in all his post-Tim Rice shows he takes first credit above the lyricist. This doesn't apply to the Rice shows, however, where you will see that Rice always has first credit to this day. Interesting. I would like to know more about his working methods when it comes to orchestrations and more generally. The contractual stipulations about credits would be contingent on his input, though, surely. He couldn't just wake up one morning and decide to take lighting designer credit for example. |
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Post by singingbird on Apr 24, 2022 22:43:44 GMT
I also think it's worth remembering that, on those early projects where he has sole orchestrator credit, they started life as recordings. JCS and Evita - and Joseph, to all intents and purposes - were albums before they were stage shows. Doing orchestrations for a recording is very different to doing them for a stage show. You can mess about in the studio, try different approaches, make it up bit by bit as you go along. JCS in particular was arranged very much in conjunction with the core group of musicians. This is evident from both TR and ALW's autobiographies. As soon as we get to shows that were on stage first, beginning with Jeeves, ALW is using collaborators to turn his sketches into workable theatre orchestrations. Exactly where credit should lie... well, that's an arguable point and only those who were in the room would truly know!
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Post by max on Apr 24, 2022 22:44:09 GMT
Well I'm going to do the equivalent of shooting myself, because.....on the Musicals board....I'm going to DISAGREE WITH SONDHEIM.
"Nobody does their own orchestrations. It’s impractical. If you did, it means you’d have to do it before rehearsal starts. You don’t have time to do it during rehearsals because of constant re-writing"
Perhaps he means 'arrangements' rather than 'Orchestrations' - yet he wasn't known for being slack with language. I find it hard to believe full orchestrations being written by anyone during rehearsals, composer or separate orchestrator. Art isn't easy!
In Evita I'm thinking of the violins that appear to laugh after "yet I gave up the sea, long ago", or the triumphal brass that accompanies Che's waspish "you'd better get out the flags and fix a parade", or those dirty chords under "the rainbow's GONNA TOUR dressed up somewhere to go" (almost like The Stripper). To me that's Orchestration - and you don't do all of those beautiful pieces of score writing during a rehearsal period. THAT's an impossible task in the small amount of time. What you can do, is recognise that for live performance the human voice will be fought by an instrument of similar timbre, and reassign that melodic or countermelodic line to a less prominent instrument, or drop it completely. Lots of that happened with Evita. Example "Next stop will be Europe" (in Rainbow high) has thrillingly crazy brass jabbing away reminiscent of 'Psycho' with a hint of a train on the Concept Album, but on stage they're very feeble and pushed to the back, with a counter melody line more prominent instead. It's boring in comparison, but I can see that on stage it allows the vocals to sit on top. To me that's Arranging the original Orchestration. Then there's orchestration for character - again Evita, when in Eva's final broadcast the birdlike flute trills in 'Don't Cry For Me Argentina' are missing, and it sounds weirdly empty.
But perhaps all of the above is the big exception to the rule that the JCS and EVITA concept albums represent. Still don't think you can write Orchestrations during rehearsals though - work on Musical Arrangements yes.
Sondheim throwing a bit of shade perhaps. Not just on ALW, but Bernstein - not for the first time. There's that photo that Sondheim commented on not liking, where (during West Side Story) Bernstein has his arm protectively around Sondheim's shoulder - and Sondheim felt it was Bernstein trying to show he was the bigger creative force.
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Post by max on Apr 24, 2022 22:46:07 GMT
Singingbird our posts crossed over, but yes - similar thoughts (not for the first time).
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Post by karloscar on Apr 25, 2022 0:40:40 GMT
Technology also means that the job of an orchestrator has changed in recent years. Anders Eljas who works with Benny Andersson noted that things changed dramatically between Chess and Kristina because modern synths and keyboards mean that a composer can produce (quite cheaply) a far more detailed demo of what they have in mind for how a piece of music should sound than was previously possible. And software means that changing keys and editing the score in rehearsal is less problematic and time consuming than when any changes had to be handwritten by teams of copyists at the last minute. Every show has its own unique path to production, and I'm sure something that starts as a concept recording is very different from a reading or workshop with just a piano accompaniment or tiny band at best.
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Post by Jon on Apr 25, 2022 13:40:26 GMT
There are composers who couldn't write or read sheet music. Lionel Bart is the best example, he came up with the melody for a song but got someone else to put it down in notions, Cyndi Lauper on Kinky Boots was a similar situation.
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Post by stuartmcd on Apr 25, 2022 16:52:21 GMT
There are composers who couldn't write or read sheet music. Lionel Bart is the best example, he came up with the melody for a song but got someone else to put it down in notions, Cyndi Lauper on Kinky Boots was a similar situation. I’m pretty sure I read somewhere that Tim Minchin can’t read sheet music. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Apr 25, 2022 17:20:03 GMT
There is no reason why anyone who can read books can't also learn how to read music. It is not a difficult task. I know I was lucky that my primary school taught everyone how to read the treble clef. I then taught myself bass clef.
Learning the rules of music theory, harmony, chord progressions, counterpoint and all the more technical side of things takes a lot more study.
But learning to read music takes very little time and I can see no reason for any musician or singer not to get this under their belts.
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Post by danb on Apr 25, 2022 18:08:52 GMT
Brilliant! Music shaming. Have a word.
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Post by singingbird on Apr 25, 2022 18:39:12 GMT
In Evita I'm thinking of the violins that appear to laugh after "yet I gave up the sea, long ago", or the triumphal brass that accompanies Che's waspish "you'd better get out the flags and fix a parade", or those dirty chords under "the rainbow's GONNA TOUR dressed up somewhere to go" (almost like The Stripper). To me that's Orchestration - and you don't do all of those beautiful pieces of score writing during a rehearsal period. THAT's an impossible task in the small amount of time. What you can do, is recognise that for live performance the human voice will be fought by an instrument of similar timbre, and reassign that melodic or countermelodic line to a less prominent instrument, or drop it completely. Lots of that happened with Evita. Example "Next stop will be Europe" (in Rainbow high) has thrillingly crazy brass jabbing away reminiscent of 'Psycho' with a hint of a train on the Concept Album, but on stage they're very feeble and pushed to the back, with a counter melody line more prominent instead. It's boring in comparison, but I can see that on stage it allows the vocals to sit on top. To me that's Arranging the original Orchestration. Then there's orchestration for character - again Evita, when in Eva's final broadcast the birdlike flute trills in 'Don't Cry For Me Argentina' are missing, and it sounds weirdly empty. So many interesting examples. I'm going to listen with fresh ears! But this sums up why carefully-made studio recordings of shows can knock spots off standard cast recordings and why (to bring it back to Cinderella) I was so disappointed with the Cinderella recording, which exhibits none of this attention to detail, despite also being a studio recording. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Apr 25, 2022 18:57:29 GMT
It isn't shaming to say that a professional musician should seek to engage with the basic building blocks of music.
I am aware of professional singers who refuse to learn how to read music which then makes life much harder when it comes to learning new repertoire/working with a musical director and so forth.
It is like travelling abroad to my mind. Taking the time to learn the basics of the language will make your life easier and that of those with whom you interact.
No shame to those who for specific reasons cannot master the rudiments of musical notation. But it is a skill that can be quickly acquired. You don't need to learn how to play an instrument or start composing. You don't need to learn how to sight sing. But understanding notation will help immensely.
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Post by karloscar on Apr 25, 2022 21:54:35 GMT
It isn't shaming to say that a professional musician should seek to engage with the basic building blocks of music. I am aware of professional singers who refuse to learn how to read music which then makes life much harder when it comes to learning new repertoire/working with a musical director and so forth. It is like travelling abroad to my mind. Taking the time to learn the basics of the language will make your life easier and that of those with whom you interact. No shame to those who for specific reasons cannot master the rudiments of musical notation. But it is a skill that can be quickly acquired. You don't need to learn how to play an instrument or start composing. You don't need to learn how to sight sing. But understanding notation will help immensely. Eh? What's the point of learning to read music if you're not going to use it to learn an instrument or sing? Pretty pointless. Plenty of very talented musicians and songwriters have done very well without formal training, and play by ear more creatively than those who have studied music theory. If you're good enough to hear something once and memorize it, you'll probably do better than someone who needs the notes in front of them to begin playing. Those are two extremes, but music doesn't always play by the rules, and has a history that stretches far beyond relatively recent Western method of putting dots on a staff. |
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Post by lolalou on Apr 25, 2022 22:07:15 GMT
Looks like Carrie’s leaving date has changed.
She doesn’t say on Twitter whether it’s before or after the publicised date of 13th July but is talking about a new musical workshop she’s involved in
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Post by FairyGodmother on Apr 25, 2022 22:08:56 GMT
...and why (to bring it back to Cinderella) I was so disappointed with the Cinderella recording, which exhibits none of this attention to detail, despite also being a studio recording. I think Cinders did have a bit of a disadvantage though — it was a studio recording but they had to record with different sections on different days so never actually heard the full orchestra play it in real life/real time. |
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Post by musicbox on Apr 25, 2022 22:14:11 GMT
As mentioned earlier, Carrie has confirmed on Twitter that 13th July is no longer her leaving date, but here's the actual tweet -
I wonder if this means she's staying longer or leaving earlier?
She was raving about how much she loves the show on Sunday Brunch yesterday, so I'd be surprised if she's bailing earlier.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Apr 25, 2022 22:16:56 GMT
Would it have killed her to tell everyone when the last show is then? Or to say it’s not confirmed yet?
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Post by lolalou on Apr 25, 2022 22:20:29 GMT
Should she be saying anything at all?
Usually the production company does this?
Not on the same level I know but as she was booked for her audience pull I would’ve thought they would treat her departure like Redmayne/Buckley in Cabaret?
There may be super fans who have booked especially to see her last performance. Can’t imagine they’ll be very happy.
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Post by musicbox on Apr 25, 2022 22:21:43 GMT
Would it have killed her to tell everyone when the last show is then? Or to say it’s not confirmed yet? I agree to be honest, the tweet in general is just very blunt! Even something like 'Sorry this has changed, but we'll announce the date of my last show soon' would've been much better. I'd like the know the date personally as I think I might go to her last show if I can, mainly just because i want to see how she words her leaving speech after all of the unnecessary drama of late with the show. |
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Post by lolalou on Apr 25, 2022 22:31:17 GMT
Leaving?
Or ahem Let go?
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