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Post by scarpia on Apr 23, 2022 17:27:41 GMT
I always think ALW is great at composing but he's not as good as picking lyricists. I wonder why he went for David Zippel rather than someone younger? From people I'd spoken to over the years I got a very strong sense it was about control over everything. ALW doesn't hire lyricists any more; he hires lyric writers. He already has ideas in his head and you must stick with that, and if you don't, you're out. In the case of Cinderella, it is clear that he had decided this song MUST be called 'Bad Cinderella' and had already decided what it was about. Then he would have rung up Zippel and said that that was the title of the song, indicating where it should go on the melody, and asked Zippel to do the rest based on ALW's ideas for it all. Zippel would not have got much say in it all. There is a marked difference in quality in Zippel's writing in non-ALW shows (see City of Angels) and the stuff that gets done for ALW (and sadly the one thing I always remember about The Woman in White is that awful sing-song melody being accompanied by 'You beat me and you raped me / And then you drowned by child / The child I never knew / All because of you'). ALW even rewrites lyrics himself on certain occasions (Glenn Slater's drafts for Paint Never Dries were so bad that ALW himself made revisions). For anyone who hasn't listened to the series of podcasts that have been done recently about Sunset Blvd (called The Sunset Project), I recommend listening to the one where Amy Powers (fired just like Patti LuPone through a newspaper column with no acknowledgment from RUG) talks about her experiences of being the lyricist first attached to the project before being dumped. Everything she says in it confirmed what I'd thought about ALW's process. |
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Post by steve10086 on Apr 23, 2022 17:38:24 GMT
I always think ALW is great at composing but he's not as good as picking lyricists. I wonder why he went for David Zippel rather than someone younger? From people I'd spoken to over the years I got a very strong sense it was about control over everything. ALW doesn't hire lyricists any more; he hires lyric writers. He already has ideas in his head and you must stick with that, and if you don't, you're out. In the case of Cinderella, it is clear that he had decided this song MUST be called 'Bad Cinderella' and had already decided what it was about. Then he would have rung up Zippel and said that that was the title of the song, indicating where it should go on the melody, and asked Zippel to do the rest based on ALW's ideas for it all. Zippel would not have got much say in it all. There is a marked difference in quality in Zippel's writing in non-ALW shows (see City of Angels) and the stuff that gets done for ALW (and sadly the one thing I always remember about The Woman in White is that awful sing-song melody being accompanied by 'You beat me and you raped me / And then you drowned by child / The child I never knew / All because of you'). ALW even rewrites lyrics himself on certain occasions (Glenn Slater's drafts for Paint Never Dries were so bad that ALW himself made revisions). For anyone who hasn't listened to the series of podcasts that have been done recently about Sunset Blvd (called The Sunset Project), I recommend listening to the one where Amy Powers (fired just like Patti LuPone through a newspaper column with no acknowledgment from RUG) talks about her experiences of being the lyricist first attached to the project before being dumped. Everything she says in it confirmed what I'd thought about ALW's process. ALW without people like Rice, Nunn, Prince, is nothing. Proper collaborators, not puppets. |
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Post by Jon on Apr 23, 2022 19:06:41 GMT
From people I'd spoken to over the years I got a very strong sense it was about control over everything. ALW doesn't hire lyricists any more; he hires lyric writers. He already has ideas in his head and you must stick with that, and if you don't, you're out. In the case of Cinderella, it is clear that he had decided this song MUST be called 'Bad Cinderella' and had already decided what it was about. Then he would have rung up Zippel and said that that was the title of the song, indicating where it should go on the melody, and asked Zippel to do the rest based on ALW's ideas for it all. Zippel would not have got much say in it all. There is a marked difference in quality in Zippel's writing in non-ALW shows (see City of Angels) and the stuff that gets done for ALW (and sadly the one thing I always remember about The Woman in White is that awful sing-song melody being accompanied by 'You beat me and you raped me / And then you drowned by child / The child I never knew / All because of you'). ALW even rewrites lyrics himself on certain occasions (Glenn Slater's drafts for Paint Never Dries were so bad that ALW himself made revisions). For anyone who hasn't listened to the series of podcasts that have been done recently about Sunset Blvd (called The Sunset Project), I recommend listening to the one where Amy Powers (fired just like Patti LuPone through a newspaper column with no acknowledgment from RUG) talks about her experiences of being the lyricist first attached to the project before being dumped. Everything she says in it confirmed what I'd thought about ALW's process. Zippel and Slater are good lyricists, their work with Alan Menken for example is very solid which makes me think that Menken is a lot more collaborative compared to ALW. |
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Post by inthenose on Apr 23, 2022 20:09:08 GMT
Slater has his moments. Some of his work in The Little Mermaid is lamentable, even when considering writing for a young audience. But yes, basically, everything Scarpia says.
It may seem like some people are very negative, but I think ALW is one of those people that the more you know - through lots of reading, personal anecdotes in the biz, podcasts etc the harder it is to like him. He lies - a lot. And he is a massive control freak, as is Cameron.
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Post by danb on Apr 23, 2022 21:36:48 GMT
Slater has his moments. Some of his work in The Little Mermaid is lamentable, even when considering writing for a young audience. But yes, basically, everything Scarpia says. It may seem like some people are very negative, but I think ALW is one of those people that the more you know - through lots of reading, personal anecdotes in the biz, podcasts etc the harder it is to like him. He lies - a lot. And he is a massive control freak, as is Cameron. Surrounding oneself with yes men never ends well. |
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Post by Oliver on Apr 23, 2022 21:42:25 GMT
From people I'd spoken to over the years I got a very strong sense it was about control over everything. ALW doesn't hire lyricists any more; he hires lyric writers. He already has ideas in his head and you must stick with that, and if you don't, you're out. In the case of Cinderella, it is clear that he had decided this song MUST be called 'Bad Cinderella' and had already decided what it was about. Then he would have rung up Zippel and said that that was the title of the song, indicating where it should go on the melody, and asked Zippel to do the rest based on ALW's ideas for it all. Zippel would not have got much say in it all. There is a marked difference in quality in Zippel's writing in non-ALW shows (see City of Angels) and the stuff that gets done for ALW (and sadly the one thing I always remember about The Woman in White is that awful sing-song melody being accompanied by 'You beat me and you raped me / And then you drowned by child / The child I never knew / All because of you'). ALW even rewrites lyrics himself on certain occasions (Glenn Slater's drafts for Paint Never Dries were so bad that ALW himself made revisions). For anyone who hasn't listened to the series of podcasts that have been done recently about Sunset Blvd (called The Sunset Project), I recommend listening to the one where Amy Powers (fired just like Patti LuPone through a newspaper column with no acknowledgment from RUG) talks about her experiences of being the lyricist first attached to the project before being dumped. Everything she says in it confirmed what I'd thought about ALW's process. ALW without people like Rice, Nunn, Prince, is nothing. Proper collaborators, not puppets. Really? He's nothing without them? |
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Post by Oliver on Apr 23, 2022 21:43:47 GMT
I always think ALW is great at composing but he's not as good as picking lyricists. I wonder why he went for David Zippel rather than someone younger? From people I'd spoken to over the years I got a very strong sense it was about control over everything. ALW doesn't hire lyricists any more; he hires lyric writers. He already has ideas in his head and you must stick with that, and if you don't, you're out. In the case of Cinderella, it is clear that he had decided this song MUST be called 'Bad Cinderella' and had already decided what it was about. Then he would have rung up Zippel and said that that was the title of the song, indicating where it should go on the melody, and asked Zippel to do the rest based on ALW's ideas for it all. Zippel would not have got much say in it all. There is a marked difference in quality in Zippel's writing in non-ALW shows (see City of Angels) and the stuff that gets done for ALW (and sadly the one thing I always remember about The Woman in White is that awful sing-song melody being accompanied by 'You beat me and you raped me / And then you drowned by child / The child I never knew / All because of you'). ALW even rewrites lyrics himself on certain occasions (Glenn Slater's drafts for Paint Never Dries were so bad that ALW himself made revisions). For anyone who hasn't listened to the series of podcasts that have been done recently about Sunset Blvd (called The Sunset Project), I recommend listening to the one where Amy Powers (fired just like Patti LuPone through a newspaper column with no acknowledgment from RUG) talks about her experiences of being the lyricist first attached to the project before being dumped. Everything she says in it confirmed what I'd thought about ALW's process. Idle speculation. You've provided no evidence that you know anything about his methods. |
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Post by steve10086 on Apr 23, 2022 21:50:54 GMT
ALW without people like Rice, Nunn, Prince, is nothing. Proper collaborators, not puppets. Really? He's nothing without them? Not when it comes to putting on a good musical. Sure he can write the music, but without real collaborators his shows are tripe. |
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Post by inthenose on Apr 23, 2022 22:19:50 GMT
From people I'd spoken to over the years I got a very strong sense it was about control over everything. ALW doesn't hire lyricists any more; he hires lyric writers. He already has ideas in his head and you must stick with that, and if you don't, you're out. In the case of Cinderella, it is clear that he had decided this song MUST be called 'Bad Cinderella' and had already decided what it was about. Then he would have rung up Zippel and said that that was the title of the song, indicating where it should go on the melody, and asked Zippel to do the rest based on ALW's ideas for it all. Zippel would not have got much say in it all. There is a marked difference in quality in Zippel's writing in non-ALW shows (see City of Angels) and the stuff that gets done for ALW (and sadly the one thing I always remember about The Woman in White is that awful sing-song melody being accompanied by 'You beat me and you raped me / And then you drowned by child / The child I never knew / All because of you'). ALW even rewrites lyrics himself on certain occasions (Glenn Slater's drafts for Paint Never Dries were so bad that ALW himself made revisions). For anyone who hasn't listened to the series of podcasts that have been done recently about Sunset Blvd (called The Sunset Project), I recommend listening to the one where Amy Powers (fired just like Patti LuPone through a newspaper column with no acknowledgment from RUG) talks about her experiences of being the lyricist first attached to the project before being dumped. Everything she says in it confirmed what I'd thought about ALW's process. Idle speculation. You've provided no evidence that you know anything about his methods. What would actually suffice? Honestly? Here we have numerous people with numerous stories, some even reaching the MSM (such as LuPone) and others - including respected professionals such as Amy Powers - who is cited above as "evidence". How on earth could anybody prove anything to you regarding ALW's methods or behaviours? If you had 2, 10 or 100 theatre people saying he'd wronged them you'd still dismiss it as "hearsay". Would you have to be physically there and witness him in action? That's the only possible way I can see anything ever being "proven" to you. This isn't a court of law, it's a discussion forum and there is no burden of reasonable doubt for harmless discussion about a composer's professional process. With all the stories I've heard personally, plus the high profile ones, plus the "evidential" fact that his output nowadays since he lost all of his best creatives has been much worse, then yeah - I'm pretty sure it's as close to "proven" as it will ever get. |
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Post by Oliver on Apr 24, 2022 0:26:25 GMT
Idle speculation. You've provided no evidence that you know anything about his methods. What would actually suffice? Honestly? Here we have numerous people with numerous stories, some even reaching the MSM (such as LuPone) and others - including respected professionals such as Amy Powers - who is cited above as "evidence". How on earth could anybody prove anything to you regarding ALW's methods or behaviours? If you had 2, 10 or 100 theatre people saying he'd wronged them you'd still dismiss it as "hearsay". Would you have to be physically there and witness him in action? That's the only possible way I can see anything ever being "proven" to you. This isn't a court of law, it's a discussion forum and there is no burden of reasonable doubt for harmless discussion about a composer's professional process. With all the stories I've heard personally, plus the high profile ones, plus the "evidential" fact that his output nowadays since he lost all of his best creatives has been much worse, then yeah - I'm pretty sure it's as close to "proven" as it will ever get. I don't agree that *his* output is worse, but if you don't have good collaborators of course your shows will suffer. LND is a bad musical despite having a ravishing score. He's never lost his musical genius. When I talked about *evidence* I was referring to claims about his working methods by Scarpia, but you seem to be talking about whether collaborators like him or not, which is something different altogether. To address that point, I am only aware of two people who have spoken negatively about their experiences of working with him, Patti Lupone (who I have no respect for but I won't go into that here) and Jack O'Brien, who had some row with ALW during LND. I would be interested in seeing the accounts of Amy Powers and others. I don't expect he's always easy to get on with but big deal quite honestly, most great artists aren't. That said, David Zippel is not someone who needs to work with ALW, he would only do it (twice) if he enjoyed collaborating with him. As for the point about 'Bad Cinderella' It's not unusual for a composer to suggest the title of a song (if that is even what happened). |
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Post by danb on Apr 24, 2022 6:20:17 GMT
I think it was was more a comment at being asked to “prove it” that has been used many times before. And as I have said before; many people on the board know a lot more than you or I about the day to day behaviours of someone they or their peers have worked for. That is their ‘proof’, and they might be in breach of trust, or some contract or NDA if they go spilling stories on an internet discussion board. Because thats what this is. Not a legally binding document. Gossip and speculation with a germ of truth at its core. Entering into its folds is an acknowledgement of this. It is factual to say that his shows are not as successful as they were earlier in his career. Whether thats down to the lack of a great collaborator or because the rest of the world has moved on, would need a sizeable survey. It is widely recognised that he writes great tunes and has the funds to launch these great follies into the world.
What he cannot do is control what people think of them. ‘Cinderella’ looked like a surefire smash on paper. Zeitgeist star with massive following: tick. Zeitgeist writer whose next step everyone was waiting for: tick. Familiar title: tick. He even tried to control covid bless him. Its a bit like the world has moved on without him while he still churns out the same thing.
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Post by singingbird on Apr 24, 2022 8:19:13 GMT
I always think ALW is great at composing but he's not as good as picking lyricists. I wonder why he went for David Zippel rather than someone younger? He did! He started this show with Tom McRae (https://theatreboard.co.uk/thread/5401/andrew-lloyd-webbers-cinderella). Then Tom was mysteriously dropped with no explanation. I'd love to know the story there... |
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Post by max on Apr 24, 2022 9:14:05 GMT
Are we forgetting 'School Of Rock' here? Is it an inconvenient part of this career-nosedive narrative because it ....went so well? It ran for the entirety of 2016, 2017 and 2018 on Broadway, recouped its investment, and was warmly welcomed by most Broadway critics in a way ALW has rarely been. There wasn't a lot of new ALW music in it (and I'm not referring to the small amount of music from the movie) - bits from 'Variations', a reuse of a standalone song 'I've Been In Love Too Long', but 4 or 5 really good new pieces. I'll agree that an established story shape to underpin it, surprising but effective collaborator on the book, and Slater much more comfortable on lyrics than he was on Love Never Dies, all underline what others have said about 'Book' and 'Collaborators'.
Perhaps after that experience of writing with a safety net 'Cinderella' has been a frustrating experience - going back to genuinely writing a musical fully from scratch, with the paradox of having a framework tale but subverting it (which can get messy when you think you've got a safe frame, but haven't).
I haven't seen it, and wouldn't back it for Broadway mainly due to the negativity that's gathered to it, but it's not on TKTS, or Today Tix, the Easter Deals were something the production did seasonally. Booking for the week ahead appears healthy (but who knows what's a fully sold ticket on their plan) but not well sold in subsequent weeks at all.
ALW certainly did give Glenn Slater the title for 'Where Did The Rock Go?' from School Of Rock - because Jim Steinman told ALW there should be a song with that title when he saw the off-Broadway try out workshops. Title suggestion and what the song will address seem like a creative invitation and catalyst to me - not a control freak's action (though he may be so elsewhere!).
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Post by scarpia on Apr 24, 2022 9:35:18 GMT
I always think ALW is great at composing but he's not as good as picking lyricists. I wonder why he went for David Zippel rather than someone younger? He did! He started this show with Tom McRae (https://theatreboard.co.uk/thread/5401/andrew-lloyd-webbers-cinderella). Then Tom was mysteriously dropped with no explanation. I'd love to know the story there... I think it's another Amy Powers situation. There are usually a lot of corpses pre-opening of any ALW show these days. Even Glenn Slater was himself quietly dropped from ALW's Wizard of Oz once ALW realised Tim Rice was interested. |
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Post by scarpia on Apr 24, 2022 9:37:31 GMT
What would actually suffice? Honestly? Here we have numerous people with numerous stories, some even reaching the MSM (such as LuPone) and others - including respected professionals such as Amy Powers - who is cited above as "evidence". How on earth could anybody prove anything to you regarding ALW's methods or behaviours? If you had 2, 10 or 100 theatre people saying he'd wronged them you'd still dismiss it as "hearsay". Would you have to be physically there and witness him in action? That's the only possible way I can see anything ever being "proven" to you. This isn't a court of law, it's a discussion forum and there is no burden of reasonable doubt for harmless discussion about a composer's professional process. With all the stories I've heard personally, plus the high profile ones, plus the "evidential" fact that his output nowadays since he lost all of his best creatives has been much worse, then yeah - I'm pretty sure it's as close to "proven" as it will ever get. I don't agree that *his* output is worse, but if you don't have good collaborators of course your shows will suffer. LND is a bad musical despite having a ravishing score. He's never lost his musical genius. When I talked about *evidence* I was referring to claims about his working methods by Scarpia, but you seem to be talking about whether collaborators like him or not, which is something different altogether. To address that point, I am only aware of two people who have spoken negatively about their experiences of working with him, Patti Lupone (who I have no respect for but I won't go into that here) and Jack O'Brien, who had some row with ALW during LND. I would be interested in seeing the accounts of Amy Powers and others. I don't expect he's always easy to get on with but big deal quite honestly, most great artists aren't. That said, David Zippel is not someone who needs to work with ALW, he would only do it (twice) if he enjoyed collaborating with him. As for the point about 'Bad Cinderella' It's not unusual for a composer to suggest the title of a song (if that is even what happened). I did direct you to the podcast with Amy Powers. Did you listen to it? The list of fall-outs extends well beyond Powers, O'Brien and LuPone. Biddy Hayward and Brian Brolly come to mind, as do certain former CEOs and shareholders of RUG, plus lawsuits/anecdotes from people like Ann Crumb, John Cameron, Hershy Kay, Anthony Bowles, and Judy Kaye. And that's leaving aside the awkward relationships between composer/producer and the current cast of Cinderella. If you want I can give you a reading list of various biographies and interviews with other former collaborators that mention this kind of stuff happening. Re the 'control' aspect, I can't think of any other MT composer who regularly insists on being named as co-orchestrator or even principal orchestrator for work he didn't do. It's well known in MT musician circles that he doesn't do orchestrations. There's an old Spitting Image episode where the ALW puppet crosses out everything with everyone else's name on, down to the manufacturer of the piano he's playing on, and replaces it with 'Webber'. It felt rather close to the truth from my perspective. Beyond that there's not much I can say on here. |
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Post by danb on Apr 24, 2022 9:40:14 GMT
Fair point. SOR covers a lot of bases which I think was the source of its success. It is the movie onstage with added songs which is a lot easier to sell than “hey, I’ve got a great idea for a musical about the chiropractor from the Profumo affair”. No amount of bangers were going to save that were they?
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Post by scarpia on Apr 24, 2022 9:48:06 GMT
Fair point. SOR covers a lot of bases which I think was the source of its success. It is the movie onstage with added songs which is a lot easier to sell than “hey, I’ve got a great idea for a musical about the chiropractor from the Profumo affair”. No amount of bangers were going to save that were they? I rather liked the idea, if not the execution. One could have said the same thing about writing a musical about dancing cats with lyrics by a dead poet or a musical about the wife of an authoritarian Argentine president that few at that point had heard of in this country (though that latter idea wasn't ALW's). |
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Post by singingbird on Apr 24, 2022 10:05:35 GMT
I don't agree that *his* output is worse, but if you don't have good collaborators of course your shows will suffer. LND is a bad musical despite having a ravishing score. He's never lost his musical genius. When I talked about *evidence* I was referring to claims about his working methods by Scarpia, but you seem to be talking about whether collaborators like him or not, which is something different altogether. To address that point, I am only aware of two people who have spoken negatively about their experiences of working with him, Patti Lupone (who I have no respect for but I won't go into that here) and Jack O'Brien, who had some row with ALW during LND. I would be interested in seeing the accounts of Amy Powers and others. I don't expect he's always easy to get on with but big deal quite honestly, most great artists aren't. That said, David Zippel is not someone who needs to work with ALW, he would only do it (twice) if he enjoyed collaborating with him. As for the point about 'Bad Cinderella' It's not unusual for a composer to suggest the title of a song (if that is even what happened). I did direct you to the podcast with Amy Powers. Did you listen to it? The list of fall-outs extends well beyond Powers, O'Brien and LuPone. Biddy Hayward and Brian Brolly come to mind, as do certain former CEOs and shareholders of RUG, plus lawsuits/anecdotes from people like Ann Crumb, John Cameron, Hershy Kay, Anthony Bowles, and Judy Kaye. And that's leaving aside the awkward relationships between composer/producer and the current cast of Cinderella. If you want I can give you a reading list of various biographies and interviews with other former collaborators that mention this kind of stuff happening. Re the 'control' aspect, I can't think of any other MT composer who regularly insists on being named as co-orchestrator or even principal orchestrator for work he didn't do. It's well known in MT musician circles that he doesn't do orchestrations. There's an old Spitting Image episode where the ALW puppet crosses out everything with everyone else's name on, down to the manufacturer of the piano he's playing on, and replaces it with 'Webber'. It felt rather close to the truth from my perspective. Beyond that there's not much I can say on here. Interesting points and I largely agree. His relationship with Don Black has often seemed truly collaborative - certainly on Tell Me and Aspects, although I don't hugely rate a lot of Don's lyrics. It's clear, however, that ALW can orchestrate. I'm pretty certain the original LPs of JCS and Evita, credited to him, wouldn't have had an unnamed orchestrator actually doing the work - and they both sound amazing. On the other hand, he gets sole credit on Cinderella and that sounds woeful... |
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Post by scarpia on Apr 24, 2022 10:09:45 GMT
I did direct you to the podcast with Amy Powers. Did you listen to it? The list of fall-outs extends well beyond Powers, O'Brien and LuPone. Biddy Hayward and Brian Brolly come to mind, as do certain former CEOs and shareholders of RUG, plus lawsuits/anecdotes from people like Ann Crumb, John Cameron, Hershy Kay, Anthony Bowles, and Judy Kaye. And that's leaving aside the awkward relationships between composer/producer and the current cast of Cinderella. If you want I can give you a reading list of various biographies and interviews with other former collaborators that mention this kind of stuff happening. Re the 'control' aspect, I can't think of any other MT composer who regularly insists on being named as co-orchestrator or even principal orchestrator for work he didn't do. It's well known in MT musician circles that he doesn't do orchestrations. There's an old Spitting Image episode where the ALW puppet crosses out everything with everyone else's name on, down to the manufacturer of the piano he's playing on, and replaces it with 'Webber'. It felt rather close to the truth from my perspective. Beyond that there's not much I can say on here. Interesting points and I largely agree. His relationship with Don Black has often seemed truly collaborative - certainly on Tell Me and Aspects, although I don't hugely rate a lot of Don's lyrics. It's clear, however, that ALW can orchestrate. I'm pretty certain the original LPs of JCS and Evita, credited to him, wouldn't have had an unnamed orchestrator actually doing the work - and they both sound amazing. On the other hand, he gets sole credit on Cinderella and that sounds woeful... Believe me, I was shocked when I learnt recently about the JCS and Evita concept albums. I had always thought those orchestrations were ALW's work. Cinderella was orchestrated by David Wilson, ALW's in-house Head of Music. |
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Post by Oliver on Apr 24, 2022 10:15:00 GMT
I don't agree that *his* output is worse, but if you don't have good collaborators of course your shows will suffer. LND is a bad musical despite having a ravishing score. He's never lost his musical genius. When I talked about *evidence* I was referring to claims about his working methods by Scarpia, but you seem to be talking about whether collaborators like him or not, which is something different altogether. To address that point, I am only aware of two people who have spoken negatively about their experiences of working with him, Patti Lupone (who I have no respect for but I won't go into that here) and Jack O'Brien, who had some row with ALW during LND. I would be interested in seeing the accounts of Amy Powers and others. I don't expect he's always easy to get on with but big deal quite honestly, most great artists aren't. That said, David Zippel is not someone who needs to work with ALW, he would only do it (twice) if he enjoyed collaborating with him. As for the point about 'Bad Cinderella' It's not unusual for a composer to suggest the title of a song (if that is even what happened). I did direct you to the podcast with Amy Powers. Did you listen to it? The list of fall-outs extends well beyond Powers, O'Brien and LuPone. Biddy Hayward and Brian Brolly come to mind, as do certain former CEOs and shareholders of RUG, plus lawsuits/anecdotes from people like Ann Crumb, John Cameron, Hershy Kay, Anthony Bowles, and Judy Kaye. And that's leaving aside the awkward relationships between composer/producer and the current cast of Cinderella. If you want I can give you a reading list of various biographies and interviews with other former collaborators that mention this kind of stuff happening. Re the 'control' aspect, I can't think of any other MT composer who regularly insists on being named as co-orchestrator or even principal orchestrator for work he didn't do. It's well known in MT musician circles that he doesn't do orchestrations. There's an old Spitting Image episode where the ALW puppet crosses out everything with everyone else's name on, down to the manufacturer of the piano he's playing on, and replaces it with 'Webber'. It felt rather close to the truth from my perspective. Beyond that there's not much I can say on here. Thanks for the information, I will check out the podcast, but, as I say, if you work with hundreds of people, you're not going to please everyone. I don't understand what you mean when you say he doesn't do orchestrations. Who orchestrated Cinderella and Stephen Ward for example? Who orchestrated the original recording of Evita with Julie Covington? MT musician circles sounds like 'rumour' to me and is probably based on misinformation based on some dispute ALW had with David Cullen. |
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Post by Jon on Apr 24, 2022 10:22:44 GMT
Are we forgetting 'School Of Rock' here? Is it an inconvenient part of this career-nosedive narrative because it ....went so well? It ran for the entirety of 2016, 2017 and 2018 on Broadway, recouped its investment, and was warmly welcomed by most Broadway critics in a way ALW has rarely been. There wasn't a lot of new ALW music in it (and I'm not referring to the small amount of music from the movie) - bits from 'Variations', a reuse of a standalone song 'I've Been In Love Too Long', but 4 or 5 really good new pieces. I'll agree that an established story shape to underpin it, surprising but effective collaborator on the book, and Slater much more comfortable on lyrics than he was on Love Never Dies, all underline what others have said about 'Book' and 'Collaborators'. Perhaps after that experience of writing with a safety net 'Cinderella' has been a frustrating experience - going back to genuinely writing a musical fully from scratch, with the paradox of having a framework tale but subverting it (which can get messy when you think you've got a safe frame, but haven't). I haven't seen it, and wouldn't back it for Broadway mainly due to the negativity that's gathered to it, but it's not on TKTS, or Today Tix, the Easter Deals were something the production did seasonally. Booking for the week ahead appears healthy (but who knows what's a fully sold ticket on their plan) but not well sold in subsequent weeks at all. ALW certainly did give Glenn Slater the title for 'Where Did The Rock Go?' from School Of Rock - because Jim Steinman told ALW there should be a song with that title when he saw the off-Broadway try out workshops. Title suggestion and what the song will address seem like a creative invitation and catalyst to me - not a control freak's action (though he may be so elsewhere!). I think School of Rock worked because ALW wanted to do something fun but I wonder if the failure of Stephen Ward meant it had to play things a little safer. |
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Post by Oliver on Apr 24, 2022 10:26:18 GMT
Interesting points and I largely agree. His relationship with Don Black has often seemed truly collaborative - certainly on Tell Me and Aspects, although I don't hugely rate a lot of Don's lyrics. It's clear, however, that ALW can orchestrate. I'm pretty certain the original LPs of JCS and Evita, credited to him, wouldn't have had an unnamed orchestrator actually doing the work - and they both sound amazing. On the other hand, he gets sole credit on Cinderella and that sounds woeful... Believe me, I was shocked when I learnt recently about the JCS and Evita concept albums. I had always thought those orchestrations were ALW's work. Cinderella was orchestrated by David Wilson, ALW's in-house Head of Music. Well if that's true, it's one less thing ALW can be blamed for, since people on this forum were saying that the orchestrations were bad (something I don't agree with) because ALW wrote them himself. So now any criticism of the orchestrations on this forum should presumably be directed at his head of music, not ALW, or will ALW still be blamed for controlling him too much and not allowing him to orchestrate freely the way he otherwise would? I don't believe any of this is true. |
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Post by scarpia on Apr 24, 2022 10:30:43 GMT
I did direct you to the podcast with Amy Powers. Did you listen to it? The list of fall-outs extends well beyond Powers, O'Brien and LuPone. Biddy Hayward and Brian Brolly come to mind, as do certain former CEOs and shareholders of RUG, plus lawsuits/anecdotes from people like Ann Crumb, John Cameron, Hershy Kay, Anthony Bowles, and Judy Kaye. And that's leaving aside the awkward relationships between composer/producer and the current cast of Cinderella. If you want I can give you a reading list of various biographies and interviews with other former collaborators that mention this kind of stuff happening. Re the 'control' aspect, I can't think of any other MT composer who regularly insists on being named as co-orchestrator or even principal orchestrator for work he didn't do. It's well known in MT musician circles that he doesn't do orchestrations. There's an old Spitting Image episode where the ALW puppet crosses out everything with everyone else's name on, down to the manufacturer of the piano he's playing on, and replaces it with 'Webber'. It felt rather close to the truth from my perspective. Beyond that there's not much I can say on here. Thanks for the information, I will check out the podcast, but, as I say, if you work with hundreds of people, you're not going to please everyone. I don't understand what you mean when you say he doesn't do orchestrations. Who orchestrated Cinderella and Stephen Ward for example? Who orchestrated the original recording of Evita with Julie Covington? MT musician circles sounds like 'rumour' to me and is probably based on misinformation based on some dispute ALW had with David Cullen. As mentioned, Wilson orchestrated Cinderella. I can't remember now who did orchestrate the original concept albums of Evita and JCS. ALW himself certainly had some input but the main work of it wasn't done by him. That doesn't mean I think any less of his work for those scores, as they're two of my all-time favourites and I rate both extremely highly. I really don't mind if someone else orchestrated them, but I do wonder why he felt the need to block out any credit for their input. The MT musicians circle isn't a rumour in the sense that I had it from some very reliable sources, I just don't want to name names. But given I'm not going to identify them, I can understand why you wouldn't want to believe me on this and that's fine. |
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Post by Oliver on Apr 24, 2022 10:58:23 GMT
Thanks for the information, I will check out the podcast, but, as I say, if you work with hundreds of people, you're not going to please everyone. I don't understand what you mean when you say he doesn't do orchestrations. Who orchestrated Cinderella and Stephen Ward for example? Who orchestrated the original recording of Evita with Julie Covington? MT musician circles sounds like 'rumour' to me and is probably based on misinformation based on some dispute ALW had with David Cullen. As mentioned, Wilson orchestrated Cinderella. I can't remember now who did orchestrate the original concept albums of Evita and JCS. ALW himself certainly had some input but the main work of it wasn't done by him. That doesn't mean I think any less of his work for those scores, as they're two of my all-time favourites and I rate both extremely highly. I really don't mind if someone else orchestrated them, but I do wonder why he felt the need to block out any credit for their input. The MT musicians circle isn't a rumour in the sense that I had it from some very reliable sources, I just don't want to name names. But given I'm not going to identify them, I can understand why you wouldn't want to believe me on this and that's fine. Thanks for your reply. I believe you and I believe them, the only question in my mind is what the basis of the information is, and whether there may be some misunderstanding which has arisen from it. For example, could it be that ALW designed the orchestrations but delegated some of the part writing to others? In that case, they may have had some input but he would have deserved orchestrator credit in my view. This later gets translated by people to 'so and so wrote the orchestrations'. I doubt that David Wilson and others would be happy to let their own work be credited to someone else. |
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Post by max on Apr 24, 2022 10:59:14 GMT
I remember Tim Rice commenting on Andre Previn sharing an Oscar nomination in 1974 for "Original Song Score and Adaptation or Scoring Adaptation" in the Jesus Christ Superstar film. Rice commented that he wasn't sad when 'The Sting' won, as Previn had been rude about the JCS music, and only tinkered with the work ALW had done on the orchestrations. I didn't feel Rice would comment that way if the original JCS orchestrations weren't ALW's. The film orchestration is very close to the concept album (as opposed to original Broadway production that was between them). Michael Walsh's love/hate book on ALW does contain comment from Anthony Bowles about ALW asking for input on orchestration (for 'Jeeves' I think) and turning him down as it would be without credit. Can we ever know if it was Bowles or ALW who were over-asking?
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