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Post by Stephen on Jul 3, 2023 16:55:23 GMT
I think it's worth noting (and I'm playing devils advocate a little here) that sometimes star casting is a good thing!
Seems to be much better on broadway though where I've seen some wonderful actors in both plays and musicals, all being big names bringing audiences in. Off the top of my head...Glenn Close in Sunset Boulevard (not Blvd) Alan Cumming and Emma Stone in Cabaret, Hugh Jackman in the Music Man. All were some of the best performances in musicals I've seen. Jim Parson in Harvey also a standout for me across the pond.
We just don't seem to be as good at it over here often casting soap/reality tv stars in the lead roles.
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Post by BVM on Jul 3, 2023 17:00:33 GMT
I think it's worth noting (and I'm playing devils advocate a little here) that sometimes star casting is a good thing! Seems to be much better on broadway though where I've seen some wonderful actors in both plays and musicals, all being big names bringing audiences in. Off the top of my head...Glenn Close in Sunset Boulevard (not Blvd) Alan Cumming and Emma Stone in Cabaret, Hugh Jackman in the Music Man. All were some of the best performances in musicals I've seen. Jim Parson in Harvey also a standout for me across the pond. We just don't seem to be as good at it over here often casting soap/reality tv stars in the lead roles. Think you've hit the nail on the head. Star casting - great. Stunt casting - bad!
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Post by tmesis on Jul 3, 2023 21:48:39 GMT
I too go to 'a bit of everything.'
Since Jan 1st I've been to 37 performances. This breaks down:
Play 16 Musical 10 Ballet 6 Opera 5
I increasingly find satisfaction mainly in the plays I go to see and next in order the ballets. I would go and see more ballets but I have seen most of the standard repertoire so many times there's got to be a good reason to see it. I'm surprised I've been to so few operas but again I've seen all the standard repertoire (and not so standard) so many times there has to be a compelling reason to visit; plus the ROH seems to be gradually replacing all their good to OK productions with something far worse.
I've really not enjoyed many musicals recently; The Secret Life of Bees was quite meh, Glory Ride, boring beyond belief and virtually everything at Southwark I've seen has misfired. I love Crazy for You (seen it 3 times - 2 Chichester 1 WE.) The only new(ish) musical I have really enjoyed and also rate highly is The Band's Visit.
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Post by tmesis on Jul 3, 2023 21:53:59 GMT
Oh also forgot, really enjoyed Alex Parker's The Railway Children in Guildford.
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Post by BVM on Aug 12, 2023 10:37:10 GMT
Thought of this thread yesterday as SOLT quoted some official figures re average ticket prices.
Average ticket price currently is £54.38 Average ticket price in 2019 before the coronavirus was £52.17 Adjusted for inflation average ticket price is DOWN 7.8%. (Taken from Stage article - can’t post due to paywall).
Now I know facts and stats aren’t as fun as hyperbole, high emotion, #it’sadisgrace rhetorics, finding an agency seating plan pic, circling the premium seats and screaming into the abyss on Twitter etc etc etc.
But despite perception to the contrary, the average West End ticket price is very much in check.
Of course my previous point re some people having jobs where salaries keep up with inflation while some have massive real terms pay cuts, and the grim widening of inequality under Tory Britain still stand.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 12, 2023 10:46:18 GMT
But what does that average ticket price actually represent?
Is it the average price paid by punters? If so, how is that data gathered?
Is it the average advertised price? If so, how does that work in a world of dynamic pricing?
Statistics can, of course, be used to show anything you need.
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Post by BVM on Aug 12, 2023 10:55:26 GMT
But what does that average ticket price actually represent? Is it the average price paid by punters? If so, how is that data gathered? Is it the average advertised price? If so, how does that work in a world of dynamic pricing? Statistics can, of course, be used to show anything you need. You’re quite right. But one would hope that whatever method SOLT do use, it was the same for 2019 and 2023 so the two are directly comparable. I guess my main point is that perception and reality can vary massively. Add in the high emotion this topic causes and I think even more so! It’s also a common fan excuse as to why their fave show has sold badly. “It’s failed because THEY’VE PRICED IT TOO HIGH!” I mean human nature. Easier to explain it like that when you love something rather than think simply it’s failed cos not many people wanna see it. Anyway, just an interesting tidbit to add to the debate I thought!
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Post by theatrefan62 on Aug 12, 2023 11:06:33 GMT
When people see a show they might be interested in they go on to buy tickets and they'll see the vast majority of good seats at a premium price which for many will be off putting. The majority of the public won't know about day seats, dynamic pricing or offers (although offers don't seem as common place as they once were).
Today you have the cheap 'headline grabbing' tickets at the back being subsidised by the premium seats at the front.
I found an old Lion King ticket from 1999 the other day. Adjusted for inflation it would cost approx £78 today. Those same seats for sale now are £138 to £183 (the seats cross two price bands today)
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 12, 2023 11:19:19 GMT
But what does that average ticket price actually represent? Is it the average price paid by punters? If so, how is that data gathered? Is it the average advertised price? If so, how does that work in a world of dynamic pricing? Statistics can, of course, be used to show anything you need. You’re quite right. But one would hope that whatever method SOLT do use, it was the same for 2019 and 2023 so the two are directly comparable. I guess my main point is that perception and reality can vary massively. Add in the high emotion this topic causes and I think even more so! It’s also a common fan excuse as to why their fave show has sold badly. “It’s failed because THEY’VE PRICED IT TOO HIGH!” I mean human nature. Easier to explain it like that when you love something rather than think simply it’s failed cos not many people wanna see it. Anyway, just an interesting tidbit to add to the debate I thought! They may be comparable but they very much are there to show something that SOLT wants the public to believe. And quite frankly, I am not convinced by their narrative. Top ticket prices are now far higher than they have ever been. That applies to the provinces as well as London. And whilst we cannot prove it, it seems highly likely that high advertised prices are making people question whether they can afford to go to the theatre. The Theateboard community isn't typical as people here are more aware of how to find deals whether it be through papering sites or knowing about day seats/other lower price mechanisms. But the average punter wanting to book a treat for a family trip is going to look at top prices well over 100 quid a go and decide not to bother. And whilst I know that star casting can be expensive, I do really get annoyed at the growing trend for one person shows with huge prices. Yes, I know that this is all a business thing.
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Post by LaLuPone on Aug 12, 2023 11:26:20 GMT
That figure will be from box offices sending weekly data to SOLT telling them the number of seats sold and how much the show grossed. From that SOLT would work out the average ticket price, so it includes everything from rush up to the super premium seats.
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Post by BVM on Aug 12, 2023 11:28:14 GMT
I mean SOLT aren’t exactly the Daily Mail.
Expect it’s more accurate than individual people pointing out individual examples.
They say the AVERAGE ticket price is much the same. I believe them.
This is of course across everything. Really not disputing the big sellers being expensive. But that’s market forces. The market regulates itself.
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Post by anthony on Aug 12, 2023 12:13:25 GMT
I think it's worth noting (and I'm playing devils advocate a little here) that sometimes star casting is a good thing! Seems to be much better on broadway though where I've seen some wonderful actors in both plays and musicals, all being big names bringing audiences in. Off the top of my head...Glenn Close in Sunset Boulevard (not Blvd) Alan Cumming and Emma Stone in Cabaret, Hugh Jackman in the Music Man. All were some of the best performances in musicals I've seen. Jim Parson in Harvey also a standout for me across the pond. We just don't seem to be as good at it over here often casting soap/reality tv stars in the lead roles. Think you've hit the nail on the head. Star casting - great. Stunt casting - bad! BUT sometimes stunt casting is great - and a lot of time, it keeps people in jobs by bringing in punters. I remember years ago people going crazy about Brooke Shields being cast as Morticia Addams in the Broadway production of The Addams Family. Ultimately, her casting kept the show open for longer. Keeping more people in jobs. And her performance wasn't too bad, either. Same with Waitress - the show literally survived on stunt casts. Same with Nicole Scherzinger in Sunset - let's be real: a show like Sunset is never going to be financially viable again without a star attached to it. Sadly, the West End (and Broadway) have moved on.
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Post by SuttonPeron on Aug 12, 2023 12:33:53 GMT
I haven´t been going to the theatre regularly for as many years as most of you. But I do keep every PDF and physical ticket I´ve bought since 2019, and it´s the perfect way to see how prices change. Just some examples: the seat I paid £42 for Wicked, is now £63. Paid £42 for Mamma Mia. Same seat is now £53. The seat I got last winter for £23 at Lion King is now £33 (the cheapest seat, by the way). The horrible seat I had at Frozen for £20, is now £30. And don´t get me started on Les Mis. All of them full price, booked direct.
Screaming into the abyss? Or maybe just facts? Ticket prices ARE rising. Theatres are mostly not selling out. Regular people see those prices and decide not to go.
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Post by BVM on Aug 12, 2023 13:06:10 GMT
I haven´t been going to the theatre regularly for as many years as most of you. But I do keep every PDF and physical ticket I´ve bought since 2019, and it´s the perfect way to see how prices change. Just some examples: the seat I paid £42 for Wicked, is now £63. Paid £42 for Mamma Mia. Same seat is now £53. The seat I got last winter for £23 at Lion King is now £33 (the cheapest seat, by the way). The horrible seat I had at Frozen for £20, is now £30. And don´t get me started on Les Mis. All of them full price, booked direct. Screaming into the abyss? Or maybe just facts? Ticket prices ARE rising. Theatres are mostly not selling out. Regular people see those prices and decide not to go. This can be true AND the average theatre ticket price be the same. All the shows you mention also have cheaper tickets available. Not saying some prices haven’t risen. They have. Saying the average is much the same. And the West End GLOBALLY hasn’t really budged. SOLT are at the more reputable end of fact issuing and I don’t think they are lying. Otherwise we’re kind of in a world where you don’t believe anything. Ultimately. It’s the best evidence we have. What next? We simply choose not to believe the Broadway World weekly figures cos they simply don’t match our fixed cognitions/personal n=1 experience? I mean I’m slightly playing Devil’s advocate. But you get my drift!
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Post by BVM on Aug 12, 2023 13:10:20 GMT
Think you've hit the nail on the head. Star casting - great. Stunt casting - bad! BUT sometimes stunt casting is great - and a lot of time, it keeps people in jobs by bringing in punters. I remember years ago people going crazy about Brooke Shields being cast as Morticia Addams in the Broadway production of The Addams Family. Ultimately, her casting kept the show open for longer. Keeping more people in jobs. And her performance wasn't too bad, either. Same with Waitress - the show literally survived on stunt casts. Same with Nicole Scherzinger in Sunset - let's be real: a show like Sunset is never going to be financially viable again without a star attached to it. Sadly, the West End (and Broadway) have moved on. Completely agree! Sat in many half empty theatres on the last Sunset tour sadly!
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Post by danb on Aug 12, 2023 18:41:55 GMT
Yes, this! The last tour failed to sell and Glenn’s Sunset hardly set the tills on fire. Quite why they keep reviving this over other ALW’s is beyond me. Obvs it is ace but I think we’re a captive audience already aren’t we?
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Post by theatrelover123 on Aug 12, 2023 19:24:23 GMT
I haven´t been going to the theatre regularly for as many years as most of you. But I do keep every PDF and physical ticket I´ve bought since 2019, and it´s the perfect way to see how prices change. Just some examples: the seat I paid £42 for Wicked, is now £63. Paid £42 for Mamma Mia. Same seat is now £53. The seat I got last winter for £23 at Lion King is now £33 (the cheapest seat, by the way). The horrible seat I had at Frozen for £20, is now £30. And don´t get me started on Les Mis. All of them full price, booked direct. Screaming into the abyss? Or maybe just facts? Ticket prices ARE rising. Theatres are mostly not selling out. Regular people see those prices and decide not to go. Not huge jumps in prices then. But more in keeping with increased costs across the board then. Which is understandable
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Post by SuttonPeron on Aug 12, 2023 20:16:36 GMT
Deliberately rising the price of the cheapest seats in the house, making them 150% more expensive, is a huge jump in price I think. Another thing I´ve noticed (and talked about previously) is that the West End is offering less and less good value for money seats. You could get a decent seat for £40-50 not too long ago. Now, the seats offered for that price are generally much worse; so people either spend more money to get a good view, or just stick to the cheapest seats.
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Post by danb on Aug 12, 2023 20:33:16 GMT
Ergo, considering all optics, they offer financially and quality wise less value for money.
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Post by marob on Aug 12, 2023 20:39:09 GMT
Now I’m probably being a bit thick here, especially as I can’t quite articulate what I mean… but how are they counting them? It sounds to me like it’s as separate productions, rather than by venue? I think if it’s individual productions then it’s probably worth bearing in mind that that would include places like the National Theatre, Jerwood Downstairs and Shakespeare’s Globe. All stage far more productions in a year than your typical West End Playhouse and have cheaper tickets/access schemes. How many £10 standing tickets does the Globe have? Several hundred at each performance isn’t it? Would stuff like that not drag the ‘true’ averages down? And if they include the ’affiliates’ that’d add places like the Almeida, Young Vic, etc which again, have cheaper tickets and stage more shows, which would drag the average down more.
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Post by Stephen on Aug 13, 2023 1:06:15 GMT
I'm going a little off topic here but to me, the revivals only make sense when they improve on the previous production or bring something very fresh to it (rare) EG I saw Alan Cumming and Emma Stone in Cabaret in NYC in 2014 and thought that production was excellent. Having since seen the current West End revival it's not a patch on the Mendes version. I fear the same will apply to this new Sunset 'BLVD' having seen Glenn Close in the Broadway revival with a full orchestra, this just won't compare.
Obviously, as I'm always keen to point out, these are just my opinions and many clearly love the new Cabaret and will likely enjoy the Savoy BLVD. Unfortunately, I likely won't.
Wasn't there a joke on one of the Forbidden Broadway numbers about 'welcome to the Revival of the revival of the REVIVAL of...' Ironically, I think it was about Cabaret.
I'll sit down. Worried I'm rocking the boat.
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Post by anthony on Aug 13, 2023 11:38:48 GMT
I wonder if long term, it will be seen that TodayTix has done more damage than good to the industry. The rise of TodayTix have led to bigger discounts being found elsewhere too - the current TKTS iteration offers far bigger discounts than it ever has in the past. I'll be honest, I very rarely pay full price for tickets nowadays. Other than the concerts currently taking place and Rebecca (but that is because I *NEED* to see Rebecca ASAP!), I think the last time I paid full price for tickets was Cock (which was pretty much sold out). Shows don't really sell out in advance anymore unless it's a big show with a big name attached (although even Sunset seems to be struggling), everyone is just waiting for those discounts and Rush tickets.
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Post by A.Ham on Aug 13, 2023 14:09:15 GMT
Lyonesse has sold extremely well in advance sales… despite the prices for anything not behind a pillar being pretty steep even when it first went on sale. Conversely, Backstairs Billy and Sunset, despite them also having star casting, don’t seem to be doing nearly as well.
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Post by Jon on Aug 13, 2023 14:18:38 GMT
Lyonesse has sold extremely well in advance sales… despite the prices for anything not behind a pillar being pretty steep even when it first went on sale. Conversely, Backstairs Billy and Sunset, despite them also having star casting, don’t seem to be doing nearly as well. I think Lyonesse is selling due to the pairing of Kristin Scott Thomas and Lily James plus Ian Rickson directing.
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Post by SuttonPeron on Aug 13, 2023 16:36:14 GMT
I wonder if long term, it will be seen that TodayTix has done more damage than good to the industry. The rise of TodayTix have led to bigger discounts being found elsewhere too - the current TKTS iteration offers far bigger discounts than it ever has in the past. I'll be honest, I very rarely pay full price for tickets nowadays. Other than the concerts currently taking place and Rebecca (but that is because I *NEED* to see Rebecca ASAP!), I think the last time I paid full price for tickets was Cock (which was pretty much sold out). Shows don't really sell out in advance anymore unless it's a big show with a big name attached (although even Sunset seems to be struggling), everyone is just waiting for those discounts and Rush tickets. It really depends on the target audience and the popularity/reputation of each show, I think. SIX has 10 rush seats per performance, never do offers; yet they sell out frequently. And it has a young fanbase who´d be "waiting for TodayTix". Les Mis don´t even do rush or offers, and also sell fairly well. But then, you´ve got Crazy for You not selling well, even when there´s a weekly "lottery", rush, TodayTix sales... Other shows (aimed at younger audiences) like Heathers would never sell out if it wasn´t for the diehard fans buying though rush and offers. Of course, if a show has seats on the cheaper side, some people will book those to avoid waiting for offers and choose the date they want. That´s why there were 5000 in the queue for the Moulin Rouge weekly seats (since it´s a much pricier show), and most likely not for Crazy for You or Wizard of Oz.
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Post by Jon on Aug 13, 2023 16:38:21 GMT
The idea that TodayTix is destroying the theatre industry is hyperbole at best. Shows that aren't appealing or not very good are going to discount even if TodayTix didn't exist.
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Post by danb on Aug 13, 2023 16:53:47 GMT
I think problems start when productions start seeing themselves as premium, because they have a good six months and withdraw all discounting. Phantom & Les Mis have both had periods off the TKTS booth which is fine, but not great for your concession or bar sales. More people in the theatre is more money in the till. £6 ice creams, Plush Olafs, Phantom jewellery boxes etcetera. Not spending much on the ticket does not mean that they won’t spend in the theatre; normally quite the opposite if our gin guzzling at Frozen the other week is anything to go by. We spent more on 4 drinks than on our Disney day seats.
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Post by anthony on Aug 13, 2023 18:03:50 GMT
The idea that TodayTix is destroying the theatre industry is hyperbole at best. Shows that aren't appealing or not very good are going to discount even if TodayTix didn't exist. The irony of talking about hyperbole when no one has even suggested such a thing
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Post by A.Ham on Aug 14, 2023 7:11:44 GMT
Lyonesse has sold extremely well in advance sales… despite the prices for anything not behind a pillar being pretty steep even when it first went on sale. Conversely, Backstairs Billy and Sunset, despite them also having star casting, don’t seem to be doing nearly as well. I think Lyonesse is selling due to the pairing of Kristin Scott Thomas and Lily James plus Ian Rickson directing. I know Nicole has the marmite-factor so won’t get into her effect on Sunset sales, but I guess I’m just surprised that people aren’t as excited at the chance to see Luke Evans and Penelope Wilton making rare West End appearances as they are KST and Lily James in Lyonesse.
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