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Post by steve10086 on Feb 25, 2023 1:48:57 GMT
Previously, when he worked with people who were at the top of their game (lyricists, directors, designers etc) a lot of the re-writes and quality control would have happened before a show reached the public. Now he works with Yes Men, gives the public crap, and stamps his feet and throws a tantrum when they don’t like it. And assuming what you say is true about rewrites etc., that's all ALW's fault? His collaborators are entirely blameless? They can do no wrong it seems. You really don’t get it. |
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Post by karloscar on Feb 25, 2023 1:51:59 GMT
I could see your point if this was an innovative or unusual piece of art, and it would take some years for audiences to catch up with the artistic vision. This is a derivative and dull piece, full of boring ballads that needs a major edit on the score and a rewrite of the book to begin to be a coherent and entertaining musical. It's not pandering to the audience to fix pretty obvious problems. Do you not understand my argument? Yes, it's pandering to an audience if you don't agree with the audience. Integrity is about the artist, not the work; it's about doing something that you believe in. I love the way you present your personal opinions about ALW's work as if they are objective facts. In your posts on the subject of ALW to date you have shown that you are incapable of balanced critique. You simply dislike ALW and have nothing substantive or interesting to say about his work. The audience is never wrong! |
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Post by Oliver on Feb 25, 2023 9:19:43 GMT
Do you not understand my argument? Yes, it's pandering to an audience if you don't agree with the audience. Integrity is about the artist, not the work; it's about doing something that you believe in. I love the way you present your personal opinions about ALW's work as if they are objective facts. In your posts on the subject of ALW to date you have shown that you are incapable of balanced critique. You simply dislike ALW and have nothing substantive or interesting to say about his work. The audience is never wrong! I guess that's a valid point of view, I don't see it that way myself though. |
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Post by Oliver on Feb 25, 2023 9:25:56 GMT
Also, regarding the argument about "yes men", how come he worked with Hal Prince no less than three times (on Evita, Phantom and Whistle Down The Wind)? How come he asked Trevor Nunn to work with him on three productions (CATS, Sunset Boulevard, and Woman in White)? Presumably you would not consider these directors "yes men"? Musicals are a collaborative form, however, so you are going to need to work with people you can get along with creatively. No, I would not consider Hal Prince or Trevor Nunn to be “yes men”. That’s my point! He used to work with good people. Now he has Laurence “I’ll direct any old $hit” Connor. Thanks for the clarification. My point was that he worked with them both on more than one occasion. If he just wanted "yes men" why would he ask them both to direct not one but three shows each? The argument doesn't hold up on that account. I agree that he chooses his collaborators poorly but that's not the same thing at all. |
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Post by steve10086 on Feb 25, 2023 9:33:50 GMT
No, I would not consider Hal Prince or Trevor Nunn to be “yes men”. That’s my point! He used to work with good people. Now he has Laurence “I’ll direct any old $hit” Connor. Thanks for the clarification. My point was that he worked with them both on more than one occasion. If he just wanted "yes men" why would he ask them both to direct not one but three shows each? The argument doesn't hold up on that account. I agree that he chooses his collaborators poorly but that's not the same thing at all. Trevor Nunn also directed Starlight Express and Aspects of Love, so that’s 5 shows. But my point is you worked with quality people in the past. Now he works with “yes men”, and there is no one around to tell him when things need work anymore. |
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Post by Oliver on Feb 25, 2023 9:41:40 GMT
Thanks for the clarification. My point was that he worked with them both on more than one occasion. If he just wanted "yes men" why would he ask them both to direct not one but three shows each? The argument doesn't hold up on that account. I agree that he chooses his collaborators poorly but that's not the same thing at all. Trevor Nunn also directed Starlight Express, so that’s 4 shows. But my point is you worked with quality people in the past. Now he works with “yes men”, and there is no one around to tell him when things need work anymore. That's interesting, you probably know more about his collaborators than I do. That would suggest that this change in his attitude happened very recently, post WIW? Regarding no one around to tell him when things need work, you seem to be blaming ALW for absolutely everything which doesn't seem fair. What about the book, why didn't anyone tell Emerald that needed work? Even if we think she's highly cooperative with ALW, it was her story. |
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Post by singingbird on Feb 25, 2023 9:42:17 GMT
Thanks for the clarification. My point was that he worked with them both on more than one occasion. If he just wanted "yes men" why would he ask them both to direct not one but three shows each? The argument doesn't hold up on that account. I agree that he chooses his collaborators poorly but that's not the same thing at all. Trevor Nunn also directed Starlight Express and Aspects of Love, so that’s 5 shows. But my point is you worked with quality people in the past. Now he works with “yes men”, and there is no one around to tell him when things need work anymore. Trouble is, it's not as simple as that. Stephen Ward was directed by Richard Eyre. Love Never Dies by Jack O'Brien and The Woman in White was, of course, Trevor Nunn - none of them are 'yes men'. All of them are respected directors with amazing CVs. So even with strong collaborators it seems that ALW flounders now. Such a shame... |
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Post by Oliver on Feb 25, 2023 9:45:40 GMT
Trevor Nunn also directed Starlight Express and Aspects of Love, so that’s 5 shows. But my point is you worked with quality people in the past. Now he works with “yes men”, and there is no one around to tell him when things need work anymore. Trouble is, it's not as simple as that. Stephen Ward was directed by Richard Eyre. Love Never Dies by Jack O'Brien and The Woman in White was, of course, Trevor Nunn - none of them are 'yes men'. All of them are respected directors with amazing CVs. So even with strong collaborators it seems that ALW flounders now. Such a shame... So whatever his collaborators do you're going to blame ALW for everything? That hardly seems fair. |
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Post by steve10086 on Feb 25, 2023 10:04:00 GMT
Trevor Nunn also directed Starlight Express, so that’s 4 shows. But my point is you worked with quality people in the past. Now he works with “yes men”, and there is no one around to tell him when things need work anymore. That's interesting, you probably know more about his collaborators than I do. That would suggest that this change in his attitude happened very recently, post WIW? Regarding no one around to tell him when things need work, you seem to be blaming ALW for absolutely everything which doesn't seem fair. What about the book, why didn't anyone tell Emerald that needed work? Even if we think she's highly cooperative with ALW, it was her story. I’m not blaming him for everything. I’m clearly stating that he works with crap people these days. People whose work is not of the quality that ALW had in the past. People who add nothing to pot, and don’t help to improve the show. Emerald Funnel came up with an awful plot, and ALW doesn’t see that. A better director would have pointed out all the flaws that the audience have pointed out, but Connor just does what he’s told. |
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Post by Oliver on Feb 25, 2023 10:23:51 GMT
That's interesting, you probably know more about his collaborators than I do. That would suggest that this change in his attitude happened very recently, post WIW? Regarding no one around to tell him when things need work, you seem to be blaming ALW for absolutely everything which doesn't seem fair. What about the book, why didn't anyone tell Emerald that needed work? Even if we think she's highly cooperative with ALW, it was her story. I’m not blaming him for everything. I’m clearly stating that he works with crap people these days. People whose work is not of the quality that ALW had in the past. People who add nothing to pot, and don’t help to improve the show. Emerald Funnel came up with an awful plot, and ALW doesn’t see that. A better director would have pointed out all the flaws that the audience have pointed out, but Connor just does what he’s told. I don't disagree with what you're saying. It's true he has chosen his collaborators poorly, I only question your theory about his motivations. |
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Post by chernjam on Mar 1, 2023 4:47:57 GMT
That's interesting, you probably know more about his collaborators than I do. That would suggest that this change in his attitude happened very recently, post WIW? Regarding no one around to tell him when things need work, you seem to be blaming ALW for absolutely everything which doesn't seem fair. What about the book, why didn't anyone tell Emerald that needed work? Even if we think she's highly cooperative with ALW, it was her story. I’m not blaming him for everything. I’m clearly stating that he works with crap people these days. People whose work is not of the quality that ALW had in the past. People who add nothing to pot, and don’t help to improve the show. Emerald Funnel came up with an awful plot, and ALW doesn’t see that. A better director would have pointed out all the flaws that the audience have pointed out, but Connor just does what he’s told. Steve and I've swapped ALW antidotes for over 20 years now I think, so I always respect his opinion and his take on things (still can remember reading his posts about LND previews when they were clocking in at 3 hours) Anyway, if I had to guess what's the issue - is that he's trying too hard for a hit rather than being guided and passionate about something. He's going against all the old lines he used to repeat about Hal Prince's advice post-Jeeves about the look of a show and how that brings together all the other essential parts. I was deflated when I heard his next project was Cinderella. Prior to that he was mentioning his interest in something else that he needed to try to acquire the rights to that involved someone who was still living, so obviously that didn't happen. But I thought Cinderella - who really cares? The announcement that Emerald was working with him definitely came when she was being celebrated for some of her work. Hard to see what is really edgy about it. And as people had mentioned the topic is kind of been beaten to death between Wicked, Heathers, Mean Girls, etc. Score wise- I think there's a lot of good stuff here - including some of the incidental music. "Only You, Lonely You" "Far too Late" "I know You" "I know I have a heart" I even find "Bad Cinderella" catchy. And he can bring it together at the right moments (Cinderella Waltz... finale) that I thoroughly enjoy. I've listened to the recording a bunch of times and still enjoy it. It's so strange. The trolls on Broadway world are out in great numbers - yet audience wise, it's selling pretty well for previews for something that people are saying is a train wreck. And lest people keep re-writing history, Cinderella did get decent reviews in London, including from the US press. I'm on the fence myself - mostly because NYC isn't the same post-COVID and the ticket prices are crazy just to take a chance. If I'm going to put that kind of cash down, I'll be picking POTO or Sweeny Todd at the moment. But not dead set against giving this a try. Just need some reason to. Perhaps if they do a cast recording that might get my attention. |
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Post by karloscar on Mar 1, 2023 10:53:20 GMT
Bad Cinderella opened in London when nothing else new was even on the horizon. Broadway 22/23 is a much busier season than there's been for years with new musicals and prominent revivals, so the competition is fierce.
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Post by Oliver on Mar 1, 2023 12:26:10 GMT
I’m not blaming him for everything. I’m clearly stating that he works with crap people these days. People whose work is not of the quality that ALW had in the past. People who add nothing to pot, and don’t help to improve the show. Emerald Funnel came up with an awful plot, and ALW doesn’t see that. A better director would have pointed out all the flaws that the audience have pointed out, but Connor just does what he’s told. Steve and I've swapped ALW antidotes for over 20 years now I think, so I always respect his opinion and his take on things (still can remember reading his posts about LND previews when they were clocking in at 3 hours) Anyway, if I had to guess what's the issue - is that he's trying too hard for a hit rather than being guided and passionate about something. He's going against all the old lines he used to repeat about Hal Prince's advice post-Jeeves about the look of a show and how that brings together all the other essential parts. I was deflated when I heard his next project was Cinderella. Prior to that he was mentioning his interest in something else that he needed to try to acquire the rights to that involved someone who was still living, so obviously that didn't happen. But I thought Cinderella - who really cares? The announcement that Emerald was working with him definitely came when she was being celebrated for some of her work. Hard to see what is really edgy about it. And as people had mentioned the topic is kind of been beaten to death between Wicked, Heathers, Mean Girls, etc. Score wise- I think there's a lot of good stuff here - including some of the incidental music. "Only You, Lonely You" "Far too Late" "I know You" "I know I have a heart" I even find "Bad Cinderella" catchy. And he can bring it together at the right moments (Cinderella Waltz... finale) that I thoroughly enjoy. I've listened to the recording a bunch of times and still enjoy it. It's so strange. The trolls on Broadway world are out in great numbers - yet audience wise, it's selling pretty well for previews for something that people are saying is a train wreck. And lest people keep re-writing history, Cinderella did get decent reviews in London, including from the US press. I'm on the fence myself - mostly because NYC isn't the same post-COVID and the ticket prices are crazy just to take a chance. If I'm going to put that kind of cash down, I'll be picking POTO or Sweeny Todd at the moment. But not dead set against giving this a try. Just need some reason to. Perhaps if they do a cast recording that might get my attention. Steve is an absolute legend, I remember him from his TireTracks days. He is incredibly knowledgeable about ALW, certainly the one I would want to ask if I had any questions on that subject. Also, despite his scatching and often hilarious posts about ALW, it ultimately comes from a deep love for the first 30 years or so of his work (excluding Cats and one or two other shows of course!). Thank you for your thoughtful reply, chernjam. I agree with almost everything you say, but I question the part about "trying too hard for a hit". I can't think of anything less likely on paper to be a hit than Stephen Ward, his previous show (which I am not a fan of incidentally). Also, if he was simply after a hit, why wouldn't he just secure the rights to make a musical adaptation of a recent hit movie, as so many other musical theatre composers do? That would seem the way to go in that case. School of Rock is the only time he has done this, a musical I have no interest in and have never even listened to, but even that is a fairly old movie. Also, Cinderella is a risky project, it's been done many times before. I would argue that if he was simply aiming for a hit in this case, he would have done a much more conventional retelling of the story. I never think that ALW involves himself in any project he doesn't feel passionate about. |
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Post by chernjam on Mar 2, 2023 5:42:03 GMT
Steve and I've swapped ALW antidotes for over 20 years now I think, so I always respect his opinion and his take on things (still can remember reading his posts about LND previews when they were clocking in at 3 hours) Anyway, if I had to guess what's the issue - is that he's trying too hard for a hit rather than being guided and passionate about something. He's going against all the old lines he used to repeat about Hal Prince's advice post-Jeeves about the look of a show and how that brings together all the other essential parts. I was deflated when I heard his next project was Cinderella. Prior to that he was mentioning his interest in something else that he needed to try to acquire the rights to that involved someone who was still living, so obviously that didn't happen. But I thought Cinderella - who really cares? The announcement that Emerald was working with him definitely came when she was being celebrated for some of her work. Hard to see what is really edgy about it. And as people had mentioned the topic is kind of been beaten to death between Wicked, Heathers, Mean Girls, etc. Score wise- I think there's a lot of good stuff here - including some of the incidental music. "Only You, Lonely You" "Far too Late" "I know You" "I know I have a heart" I even find "Bad Cinderella" catchy. And he can bring it together at the right moments (Cinderella Waltz... finale) that I thoroughly enjoy. I've listened to the recording a bunch of times and still enjoy it. It's so strange. The trolls on Broadway world are out in great numbers - yet audience wise, it's selling pretty well for previews for something that people are saying is a train wreck. And lest people keep re-writing history, Cinderella did get decent reviews in London, including from the US press. I'm on the fence myself - mostly because NYC isn't the same post-COVID and the ticket prices are crazy just to take a chance. If I'm going to put that kind of cash down, I'll be picking POTO or Sweeny Todd at the moment. But not dead set against giving this a try. Just need some reason to. Perhaps if they do a cast recording that might get my attention. Steve is an absolute legend, I remember him from his TireTracks days. He is incredibly knowledgeable about ALW, certainly the one I would want to ask if I had any questions on that subject. Also, despite his scatching and often hilarious posts about ALW, it ultimately comes from a deep love for the first 30 years or so of his work (excluding Cats and one or two other shows of course!). Thank you for your thoughtful reply, chernjam. I agree with almost everything you say, but I question the part about "trying too hard for a hit". I can't think of anything less likely on paper to be a hit than Stephen Ward, his previous show (which I am not a fan of incidentally). Also, if he was simply after a hit, why wouldn't he just secure the rights to make a musical adaptation of a recent hit movie, as so many other musical theatre composers do? That would seem the way to go in that case. School of Rock is the only time he has done this, a musical I have no interest in and have never even listened to, but even that is a fairly old movie. Also, Cinderella is a risky project, it's been done many times before. I would argue that if he was simply aiming for a hit in this case, he would have done a much more conventional retelling of the story. I never think that ALW involves himself in any project he doesn't feel passionate about. Thats a good point Oliver (Re: Stephen Ward) - It's just a bit strange how things have been post-Sunset/WDTW. As much as the whole Sunset drama focused more on the soap opera/tabloid craziness around the Normas, I wonder if that caused ALW some PTSD. And I think that's part of my "trying too hard for a hit" thought came from. Sunset opened on Broadway with a jaw dropping $37.5 million advance in ticket sales (a record that held up till the recent Hello Dolly revival with Bette Middler) yet closed failing to return its investment. That is one of the reasons the original WDTW directed by Hal Prince got scrapped. I know we have to take all of ALW's interviews with a grain of salt, but at one point before Prince passed away he acknowledged that he wished they had continued working on that collaboration. It's just strange as a fan myself to hear some of that greatness here and there in these scores, but how they have continued to miss that success. |
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Post by marob on Mar 2, 2023 11:10:58 GMT
http://instagr.am/p/CpSFmIRIigM She always refused to say anything negative, even with all the drama surrounding the closure, but seems to be reacting to something. Has his Lordship said something he shouldn’t? Again? |
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Post by raider80 on Mar 15, 2023 19:06:42 GMT
Last week the show grossed $592,938. There is no way this show can last long term with numbers like that. Bad Cinderella Grosses |
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Post by andypandy on Mar 16, 2023 7:17:02 GMT
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Post by steve10086 on Mar 16, 2023 8:24:44 GMT
Crap Cinders is only booking to 3 September? That seems very short, or is that normal for Broadway? |
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Post by viserys on Mar 16, 2023 8:48:02 GMT
The NYTix website is rubbish and thrives on vague rumours like certain English theatre bloggers.
And yes, short booking periods are fairly normal.
They will probably wait until the Tony Awards to either announce closing or extending.
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Post by Mark on Mar 16, 2023 9:50:32 GMT
The same website shows Merrily playing at the Broadway, The Wiz playing at the Hudson, and numerous fake and made up production dates for other shows. It also has Kimberly Akimbo down as closing next week. |
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Post by Oliver on Mar 16, 2023 11:55:01 GMT
The same website shows Merrily playing at the Broadway, The Wiz playing at the Hudson, and numerous fake and made up production dates for other shows. It also has Kimberly Akimbo down as closing next week. The fact that the investors decided to back this show in New York is commendable, since it shows how while they hope for a show to be successful, money is not the primary incentive for them (otherwise they would invest in something other than musical theatre in the first place). It's more about their interest in promoting musical theatre generally. They would, of course, have known that this only has a very slim chance of success on Broadway. I've always admired the altruism on the part of musical theatre investors. |
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Post by mattnyc on Mar 16, 2023 18:43:48 GMT
Good rule of thumb - never believe anything that website says.
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Post by chernjam on Mar 17, 2023 4:14:46 GMT
http://instagr.am/p/CpSFmIRIigM She always refused to say anything negative, even with all the drama surrounding the closure, but seems to be reacting to something. Has his Lordship said something he shouldn’t? Again? Has anyone figured out what this was all about? |
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Post by Oliver on Mar 17, 2023 10:29:48 GMT
http://instagr.am/p/CpSFmIRIigM She always refused to say anything negative, even with all the drama surrounding the closure, but seems to be reacting to something. Has his Lordship said something he shouldn’t? Again? Has anyone figured out what this was all about? It's probably just resentment over what happened originally. |
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Post by c4ndyc4ne on Mar 17, 2023 19:31:10 GMT
did ALW describe the London run as a try-out/workshop at some point?
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