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Post by og on Feb 24, 2022 18:47:42 GMT
The events unfolding over in Ukraine will soon impact us in many different ways and going forward our attention, through news and social media coverage, is likely to be focused on the plight of Ukrainian citizens as people are displaced and lives lost.
It's despicable and heart wrenching to see this unfolding.
If you haven't seen it, there's a very poignant message from Ukraine's President worth watching here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t0cmak/president_zelenskyys_heartbreaking_defiant_speech/
This is a thread to discuss concerns regarding all aspects of the events currently occurring in Ukraine.
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594 posts
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Post by og on Feb 24, 2022 19:01:59 GMT
I thought it worth establishing this thread before opening discussion about a topic I've been thinking about. The UK, US, EU & other nations have all announced various sanctions on Russia and Russian Oligarch's in response to Russia's actions, with further sanctions planned. There's talk online about how else people at a macro level can contribute, boycotts etc. Would you be prepared to boycott any Russian Oligarch's companies in response to this unspeakable war? A potentially interesting aspect relating to theatre goers here is Access Industries (and subsidiary Access Entertainment) owned by Leonard Blavatnik. Access Entertainment recently brought Theatre Royal Haymarket, but also have been key investors in productions like Hamilton, School of Rock, Hello Dolly & Groundhog Day. Whilst considered a British & American Citizen, Leonard Blavatnik was born in the Sovient Union, Educated in Moscow, and has established close ties in both his business endeavours and personal life with multiple Russian Oligarchs & close links to Vladimir Putin. Whilst I might be reading too much into this, I certainly find it fascinating. To me, this all plays together a little too closely for my liking. Further reading online suggests Blavatnik's wealth has come from "Illegal enrichment at the expense of Russian taxpayers due to his close relations to the Kremlin; corruption of the Western elites in the interests of the Putin regime." (source: www.spisok-putina.org/en/personas/blavatnik-2/)I was wondering what your stance would be. If it turned out Blavatnik was in support of Putin's actions, would you boycott any of the theatrical ventures associated with his investment? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2022 19:40:54 GMT
I'd boycott any company that supported Putin's actions. It's tricky, though, because Russia has many fingers in many pies. Until someone draws it to your attention it's difficult to know exactly who is behind many companies, especially as they make a point of trying to fuzz the details.
On a personal level I have colleagues in both Ukraine and Russia, and everyone is carefully avoiding the situation. This is very much a Russian government action, not a Russian people action, so we're trying to carry on as normal and not take feelings out on those who have no more control over the situation than we have. Nobody knows how much longer we'll be able to stay in contact.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2022 19:53:42 GMT
I think we should stay well out of it as we are not in EU now. Maybe President Trump had the right idea button down the hatches and don't come running if Putin invades.
My worry would be what of our energy resources do Russia control?
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Post by Jan on Feb 24, 2022 20:21:59 GMT
This is very much a Russian government action, not a Russian people action. Last time I worked in Russia, not so long ago, outside Moscow I was surprised by the very high levels of support Putin had, not everyone and less amongst some of the young, but it was clear even if he’d run a fair election he would still have won in a landslide. Russia has a history of liking “strong” leaders. |
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Post by og on Feb 24, 2022 20:24:10 GMT
I think we should stay well out of it as we are not in EU now. Maybe President Trump had the right idea button down the hatches and don't come running if Putin invades. My worry would be what of our energy resources do Russia control? Nor is Ukraine fwiw |
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Post by Jan on Feb 24, 2022 20:32:10 GMT
I think we should stay well out of it as we are not in EU now. Maybe President Trump had the right idea button down the hatches and don't come running if Putin invades. My worry would be what of our energy resources do Russia control? Our energy resources ? Not much. Germany’s ? Approaching 50%. |
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Post by crabtree on Feb 24, 2022 20:34:35 GMT
I don't know how to process these awful events, and on a very trivial level, I am involved with a Russian co production. Who knows what will happen there now.
A few years ago I was a guest of honour at a concert of tchaikovsky music at his house in Klin. A great honour slightly ruined by the host saying that Putin had sat in my very chair a week before.
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Post by Phantom of London on Feb 24, 2022 21:02:40 GMT
Nothing to really say, but this is absolutely dreadful and for what?
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Post by talkingheads on Feb 24, 2022 22:00:35 GMT
If this escalated, what are the chances of conscription coming back? Frankly I'd rather hide in the woods than fight in a war but I wonder how realistic it would even be in the modern age.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2022 0:53:56 GMT
This is simply terrible!
As someone who, sadly, had to live in a war-torn country for two years and who’s lost his adolescence due to war, I feel so sorry for all the Ukrainian people, but especially for children and teenagers, who’ll have to leave their homes and become refugees because of the crass stupidity, supreme arrogance and insatiable thirst for power of world leaders.
Putin and his troops have invaded Ukraine, there’s no doubt about that; but the leaders from other countries, while they are delivering moving speeches to condemn Putin, seem to enjoy the fact that there is yet another country they can sell their weapons and send their soldiers to; and that there is yet another d***-measuring contest they can take part in and try to win.
And let me not start on at journalists, who needed something like this now that the pandemic seems to be coming to an end and who’ll forget this conflict as soon as another one begins. Who remembers the poor members of the LGBT+ community and women who were left in Afghanistan? Who remembers the refugees from Syria? Who remembers Alan Kurdi? Don’t know about UK, but here in Spain no one is talking about them any more. But right now we have TV specials on every channel where the so-called specialists in international affairs and second-rate politicians debate about the economic consequences this horrible conflict may have for Spain.
And when they speak about the people who are trapped in the conflict, they pity them, but at the same time see them as a burden to Western countries, a big problem Western countries will have to deal with soon.
No one ever dreams about becoming a refugee. Becoming a refugee, especially as a child or a teenager is a nightmare. And, sadly, I know what I’m talking about. You lose everything: your home, your friends, your childhood/adolescence. And you become a wanderer - you are forced to push your cart like Anna Fierling or Tevye for the rest of your life. Yes, some countries open their doors and accept you, but they never treat you as one of their citizens. Even when you become a naturalised citizen, you always feel like a foreigner. There are always people who make sure that you never forget that you’re not one of them: ‘You still speak our language with an accent’, ‘Where are you from?’, ‘Don’t you ever think about returning to your country’ …
And what is even worse is that you also feel like a foreigner in the country where you were born, especially if you left it as a child/teenager and spent years away from it. You can’t even speak your mother tongue without an accent any more. So you feel more or less like Eliza Doolittle at the end of the show: You know that you’ll never be fully accepted by toffs, but you can’t go back to the corner of Tottenham Court Road either.
Anyway, what I’m trying to say is that today is a very sad day, because another war has broken out. And I sincerely hope that this insanity won’t last for long. As an intelligent person said: There are no winners in a war; there are only victims and everyone loses. |
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Post by frappuccino on Feb 25, 2022 4:49:05 GMT
Looks like Putin did not consult the oligarchs. He is trying to reassure them by saying "these are desperate measures. Russia is a global economy and we are not trying to destroy the system we participate in. We can't forsee geopolitics"
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Post by Jan on Feb 25, 2022 8:14:59 GMT
Looks like Putin did not consult the oligarchs. He is trying to reassure them by saying "these are desperate measures. Russia is a global economy and we are not trying to destroy the system we participate in. We can't forsee geopolitics" Russia isn't really a significant global economy, not in the top 10 for GDP, around the same as Australia, despite their large population. What may hamper Putin this time is it is in effect a civil war, Russian troops fighting against people who (in Russian eyes) are also Russians, so somewhat different even from his war in Georgia. This may eventually undercut his support at home and maybe in his army. |
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Post by Someone in a tree on Feb 25, 2022 8:17:20 GMT
It's terrifying to see war on our door step. Ive holidayed in Ukraine twice and its mortifying to see spots I've stood on now on the news and covered in bloodshed.
I worry that Ukraine is Czechoslovakia and I'm wondering which country will be Poland
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Feb 25, 2022 8:21:11 GMT
My worry would be what of our energy resources do Russia control? 3% |
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Post by Jan on Feb 25, 2022 8:32:55 GMT
I worry that Ukraine is Czechoslovakia and I'm wondering which country will be Poland Nowhere. His next step would have to be into a NATO member country. He won't do that. His troops will have major trouble subduing and holding Ukraine, a country of 40m people with plenty of them ready to resist, he won't be able to spare the resources to do anything else even if he wanted to - remember Russia failed in Afghanistan too. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2022 9:22:29 GMT
He also has the issue that it isn't the Cold War any more. Back then the only external source of information Russians had about the outside world came from shortwave radio, and only for those living in the country because the government jammed it in all major cities. Now many ordinary Russians have friends around the world and they know the difference between what they're being told the West wants and what westerners actually think of Russia. The wealthier they are the more likely they are to have had direct experience of the West, and those are the very people Putin needs to have on his side.
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Post by Jan on Feb 25, 2022 9:47:04 GMT
Now many ordinary Russians have friends around the world and they know the difference between what they're being told the West wants and what westerners actually think of Russia. The wealthier they are the more likely they are to have had direct experience of the West, and those are the very people Putin needs to have on his side. I think even more important than the Russians who have had experience of the West are the large number who have had experience and ties to Ukraine. Just to expand on my earlier point, a very rough analogy to think about would be England invading Scotland, two separate countries but with all sorts of ties between them, families in each others countries, large exchanges of people due to work and holidays, a shared culture to a large extent. The Russian public will likely view current images from Ukraine differently to what they saw coming from Chechnya for example. |
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Post by Dawnstar on Feb 25, 2022 20:25:16 GMT
While Putin invading Ukraine would be awful at any time, I do feel that him doing it now, after the ghastly last 2 years the world has had with covid, is particularly awful.
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Post by og on Feb 26, 2022 7:52:39 GMT
While Putin invading Ukraine would be awful at any time, I do feel that him doing it now, after the ghastly last 2 years the world has had with covid, is particularly awful. It's been brewing for years, Western news has just had other stuff to talk about. I dare say without covid this may have happened sooner. Maybe the experience of 'managing' Covid in Russia has had a detrimental effect Putins mental stability (not that it was anywhere close to 100% beforehand). |
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Post by crowblack on Feb 26, 2022 14:18:25 GMT
There's an interesting piece by Giles Fraser in Unherd on the religious background that may be driving Putin (I say 'may' because I don't know, but we in the secular West do massively underestimate the religion factor when it comes to global conflicts, the Middle East, Arab Spring and the like. Even leaders like Blair who is himself unusually religious by UK political standards admits he underestimated its role in the conflicts he engaged in.)
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Post by joem on Feb 26, 2022 14:52:44 GMT
Whilst I am not keeping on commenting on anything non-theatre related, this is a despicable act which cannot be justified even if you don't consider the Ukrainian regime to be particularly democratic. Killing people is never the answer and solutions could have been found, but a strongman - especially an ageing and now frankly somewhat decrepit one - survives by being seen to be a strongman.
I would strongly condemn equating all Russians with Putin, even if he does have significant support there, and I would be wary of accepting at face value any articles which automatically brand all successful Russian businessmen as thieving money-launderers - even if quite a few of them are. What they should be asked to do, if they live in this country, is to either condemn the deaths of innocent people caused by this attack or get the hell out of here. Making billions in this country whilst trampling on our most cherished values - right to life, oppoisition to violence, democracy - is not on.
That's it.
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Post by og on Feb 26, 2022 17:40:32 GMT
What makes this war slightly different is how the internet is now enabling so much information to emerge from the ground. Clips I've been seeing today, we're not yet seeing on the news (and I presume not likely to) but is appearing via fairly credible sources online, is the many cases of Russian conscripts captured in Ukraine who have no idea why they are there, often on the assumption they were drafted in for training exercises etc. Most are young men, practically boys. One clip shows a Russian conscript speaking to his parents on the phone who had no idea he was in Ukraine, whilst he had no idea why he was there. Galling to see so many different clips pop up of innocent young Russian men, launched into a war they know nothing about; looking genuinely ashamed and abashed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2022 2:35:34 GMT
I am of Russian Blood and ashamed of what Putin and Kremlin is doing to Ukraine. I am with Ukraine. Я російської крові і мені соромно за те, що Путін і Кремль роблять з Україною. Я з Україною
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2022 2:36:24 GMT
I worry that Ukraine is Czechoslovakia and I'm wondering which country will be Poland Nowhere. His next step would have to be into a NATO member country. He won't do that. His troops will have major trouble subduing and holding Ukraine, a country of 40m people with plenty of them ready to resist, he won't be able to spare the resources to do anything else even if he wanted to - remember Russia failed in Afghanistan too. As a person of Russian Blood I am very happy to hear that. f*** Putin |
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