|
Post by scarpia on Sept 18, 2022 9:44:25 GMT
Or are we really just going to see the cheapened version shoehorned in within a couple of months? I'm going to guess about a year. It can't be done as quickly (or seamlessly, with the media not even noticing) in London since the producers don't own the theatre this time. And then we'll have the 'for the 21st century', 'bigger and better' rubbish again etc. The reports said the Shuberts were reluctant to do so, so I'm guessing not.
|
|
|
Post by SuttonPeron on Sept 18, 2022 12:52:59 GMT
No one gives '200%' every night in a job they have done for 35 years. Do you know why the show closed? did the Shuberts give them notice? Not that it would matter. Cameron would would be blamed either way I know no more than what´s public about the closure. However, what I do know is that less than a month ago (meaning 35 years after opening night) the show did not feel dated or stale, and certainly not rushed. And as we´ve seen happen in other shows, that can only happen with a cast and crew that´s passionate and devoted to the show they´re working at (and a good resident director). Of course Cameron will be blamed because this is certainly not the first time he´s closed a long-running iconic original production to replace it with a scaled-back touring version. I highly doubt the Schuberts wanted to close the show.
|
|
2,804 posts
|
Post by couldileaveyou on Sept 18, 2022 18:37:22 GMT
|
|
|
Post by surge on Sept 18, 2022 18:50:46 GMT
Either way, I feel devastated by the news. I first was forced to see this with my class trip to Toronto, Canada back in 1989, and saw Colm Wilkinson and Rebecca Caine. I was not looking forward to watching a bunch of actors running around a stage singing what they were thinking.. And then the dark and eerie stage drew me in with the auctioneer's gavel crack and his loud booming voice echoing throughout the theater "SOLD!". I can not explain how much this show has changed me and has provided for me through several life-changing experiences and my heart has shattered finding out about its closing on Broadway. Needless to say, I have purchased several tickets for various performances on Broadway in January as I don't want to see it go. I will figure out how to pay for my decision later. This is going to impact a lot of individuals like me I am sure.
|
|
|
Post by surge on Sept 18, 2022 18:55:20 GMT
I don't have anything nice to say so I will keep it to myself.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2022 21:38:12 GMT
I respect that the show means a great deal to some people, but I just can't get worked up about it closing. Sadness will prevail for a short time around the actual closing and the life on Broadway will quickly move on to whatever is next.
|
|
861 posts
|
Post by karloscar on Sept 18, 2022 22:39:41 GMT
It's theatre dahling! Nothing's supposed to last forever. (Phantom was one of those shows which left me totally cold, though I could see why it appealed to some. Christine and Raoul were rather tedious and we don't ever learn enough about the Phantom to care much what happens to him. Nice design and clever work by Hal Prince but one viewing was more than enough.)
|
|
6,276 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by Jon on Sept 19, 2022 0:03:38 GMT
I respect that the show means a great deal to some people, but I just can't get worked up about it closing. Sadness will prevail for a short time around the actual closing and the life on Broadway will quickly move on to whatever is next. 35 years is a fantastic run. I always think the long runners created unrealistic expectations when as Cameron pointed out 1-2 year run was considered a success when he was starting out.
|
|
|
Post by intoanewlife on Sept 19, 2022 12:43:30 GMT
I have seen this show twice with a nearly 20 year gap in between and had the same experience both times.
It was fine until the last 10 minutes where they stand screeching at each other over the top of each other so I couldn't understand what either of them were saying and then it just finished.
I still have no idea what happened x
|
|
|
Post by surge on Sept 19, 2022 13:21:01 GMT
I guess it's theatre, but I also like seeing the mask when you see a video of Times Square and knowing that the musical that drew me in is still around for me to experience again if I choose. (Call me selfish) If it were not for the school choosing to take our class to see it, I may not be a theatre buff today. I cannot wait to see the next show.
But as far as the Phantom, he is a dark and mysterious character that in the end I feel compassion for. You are right, we don't know much about him and I think the entire show leaves us to imagine the details in our own minds... that includes how the story ends. The disfigurement of the Phantom for example, is the reason the world has not shown him any compassion. And being ugly myself, I can see the cruelty that is shown by all who expect one to be appealing to the eyes and easy to look at....
Anyway, I view it as a great love story that tends to pull at the heartstrings in the end with some pretty good music.
|
|
|
Post by 141920grm on Sept 19, 2022 14:18:06 GMT
No one gives '200%' every night in a job they have done for 35 years. Do you know why the show closed? did the Shuberts give them notice? Not that it would matter. Cameron would would be blamed either way I know no more than what´s public about the closure. However, what I do know is that less than a month ago (meaning 35 years after opening night) the show did not feel dated or stale, and certainly not rushed. And as we´ve seen happen in other shows, that can only happen with a cast and crew that´s passionate and devoted to the show they´re working at (and a good resident director). Of course Cameron will be blamed because this is certainly not the first time he´s closed a long-running iconic original production to replace it with a scaled-back touring version. I highly doubt the Schuberts wanted to close the show. It's always difficult for those who are not huge fans of a show, to drum up basic empathy for all the people whose immediate livelihoods or career aspirations are affected by its closing, than the ones who are aware of the realities of the industry but do care a lot in addition to the average person's concerns about weekly grosses and a great night out. I hope none of the Broadway cast see this thread and the "high horse" comments that could come across callous to some.
|
|
|
Post by scarpia on Sept 19, 2022 17:16:49 GMT
I don't have anything nice to say so I will keep it to myself. His comments seem evasive and some of the inside gossip on this is that Phantom isn't really faring more badly than most other Broadway shows right now. It could weather the storm on this. Its grosses and attendance rates were far worse in the early 2000s when it did really look like it was going to shut, and indeed the producers were thinking it might have to close circa 2002. I suspect this is a similar situation to what happened in London and there is something going on behind the scenes that is not being disclosed. The most I can surmise is that Cameron wants to shut it and bring the scaled-down version to Broadway and has, as in London, got his way again. But how he has done it, I don't quite know, since RUG owns the majority rights for the Broadway production. RUG and ALW still have said absolutely nothing about this and it looks like the news leaking to the media have caught them off guard and, once again, Cameron has beaten them to it. It will look stupid of them to suddenly say next week that it isn't closing after all and is just going on hiatus and is coming back 'bigger and better', given how that all played in London, but I wouldn't put it past them. I wasn't expecting this show to outlast the 2020s but it would be nice (if a pipe dream) for it to be captured and preserved for posterity. Because the Albert Hall thing and that damn film are not what the Phantom magic is really about.
|
|
6,276 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by Jon on Sept 19, 2022 17:42:17 GMT
I assume the Majestic will be getting a long overdue refurbishment before perhaps reopening with a new show and even a new name (The Harold Prince Theatre anyone?) in Autumn 2023.
I find it odd that they're closing it rather than moving theatres etc unless the contracts are so ironclad that they have to close it in order to introduce new contracts.
|
|
|
Post by scarpia on Sept 19, 2022 17:59:55 GMT
I assume the Majestic will be getting a long overdue refurbishment before perhaps reopening with a new show and even a new name (The Harold Prince Theatre anyone?) in Autumn 2023. I find it odd that they're closing it rather than moving theatres etc unless the contracts are so ironclad that they have to close it in order to introduce new contracts. The Broadway contracts are much tighter and ironclad than London, and the unions stronger. Moving theatres, especially to a smaller one, would also give the impression of a downscale which - even if that is the reality - is one that is clear they are trying to avoid given their marketing language when they did this in London. Some are speculating that the TV series that is going to be made that features rehearsals of the show might be used to generate publicity for the new Broadway production. Would be lovely (and overdue) if they were finally to rename the Majestic the Prince. It's the theatre where Hal Prince met Steve Sondheim for the first time and so it feels very appropriate.
|
|
5,265 posts
|
Post by mrbarnaby on Sept 19, 2022 23:10:39 GMT
He is obviously closing this so he can reopen his cheap Phantom shortly after. And pocket all that extra money he won’t be paying in royalties.
|
|
|
Post by inthenose on Sept 19, 2022 23:34:15 GMT
He is obviously closing this so he can reopen his cheap Phantom shortly after. And pocket all that extra money he won’t be paying in royalties. I made a very long and detailed post explaining how all this worked in the main Phantom thread, but yes, you’re absolutely correct.
|
|
|
Post by inthenose on Sept 19, 2022 23:37:05 GMT
RE: the London closure and downsizing:
Here's what actually happened.
Everything that happened at this show was related to residual payments and the complex situation regarding the contracts of director Hal Prince, the late Maria Björnsson and a few other creatives (to a much lesser extent).
Prince in particular - ever since the show opened - was receiving a nightly percentage of the box office gross. This may sound absolutely mental, but it has some logic.
Staging musicals is a very risky and hugely expensive business, especially groundbreaking shows with new technology, huge special effects, a sizeable orchestra and large cast. Add a star name, Michael Crawford, on top of that (also with his own sizeable slice of the pie each night) and the producers naturally will try and keep costs as a low as possible wherever they can, until the show is up and making money.
If a mega show/film bombs and loses investors millions, it can take with it the credibility and entire career of the director, star and anybody else who cost the money men moolah. A director will often trade off a huge freelance salary in return for a percentage of box office, which gives them incentive to do their best (and most commercially successful) work, which in turn sells more tickets. It's like working on commission.
These contracts remained in place from when work began on the show in 1985, right through until 2020. They were cast-iron. Attempts may have been made to buy people out of their contracts for a lump sum. Naturally, these would've been declined.
With the show earning well over $6 billion at the time of closing, you can imagine this was hundreds of millions of pounds that RUG were "losing".
Then two things happened. First of all, Hal Prince sadly died in July 2019. Then, Covid struck. The show was forced to close. But plans were already afoot.
The original production was officially closed. The producers could now open a legally distinct new version of The Phantom of the Opera, with "new direction" (Seth Sklar-Heyn) and "new designs" (Matt Kinley). After extensive and very careful consultation with specialist intellectual property lawyers, of course.
As you can imagine, neither the new director, designer - or any other beneficiaries from the original production contracts - will be receiving a penny in box office revenue. It's a new show.
Now the producers get 100% of the take every single night, with no estates to pay massive residuals to.
It's 2020, and seeing as the show is now closed, it's our one opportunity to also do all that good stuff to the theatre, upgrading it all nice and ready for another 30 year run. While we're at it, let's cut running costs by using all this marvellous 2020 technology we obviously didn't have back in 1986.
As a result, many of the crew were laid off, troublesome and labour intensive effects/staging were cut or restaged to not require crew to operate (notably the angel) and around half of the orchestra were dismissed, again hugely saving on running costs.
Nowadays, not only is the show cheaper than ever to run, the producers are actually making more money at the box office than they ever have in the past, because they are out of those contracts.
This whole thing has been a legal flimflam.
|
|
6,276 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by Jon on Sept 20, 2022 0:33:18 GMT
If you think about it, this happened with Les Miserables on Broadway. The original production closed in 2003 then returned to Broadway three years later using the sets of the US tour for a limited run before extending until 2008 so it's very likely Phantom will be back on Broadway within a couple of years, probably at a smaller theatre like the Broadhurst or the Imperial.
|
|
|
Post by bobbievanhusen on Sept 20, 2022 1:02:08 GMT
It's always difficult for those who are not huge fans of a show, to drum up basic empathy for all the people whose immediate livelihoods or career aspirations are affected by its closing, than the ones who are aware of the realities of the industry but do care a lot in addition to the average person's concerns about weekly grosses and a great night out. I hope none of the Broadway cast see this thread and the "high horse" comments that could come across callous to some. I think you're the one up there on your high horse. Shows close all the time, some within weeks of opening.I would have huge empathy for young kids, fresh out of college, going into their first Broadway show and it closed in a few weeks. That would be soul destroying. The majority of these people have had constant work for 35 years. Going from a Local 802 contract from 2018, the basic musician rate for Broadway was $1888.77. A WEEK. If they double on an instrument they got an additional $235 a week. Even on the basic rate they were earning $7540 a month. Stage Managers were on $3342 A WEEK. If their 'immediate livelihoods' are threatened after earning those type of salaries, for 35 years, I have no empathy for them. I'm not sure aspirations was the right word to use, but I think if someone aspired to do or be something, they wouldn't have stayed for so long, or have done it by now. I do hope the Broadway cast read this, so they can appreciate how lucky they have been, to have it last so long. If people thought it would last forever, then they're fools because nothing lasts forever. Cats should have taught them that
|
|
|
Post by bobbievanhusen on Sept 20, 2022 1:26:27 GMT
Now the producers get 100% of the take every single night, with no estates to pay massive residuals to. That is true, but you have also simplified it, because the producers will still have to pay money out to the 'new director' and 'new designer' (albeit at a fraction of what would have been paid) along with all the other usual costs of running a production in a West End Theatre. Nowadays, not only is the show cheaper than ever to run, the producers are actually making more money at the box office than they ever have in the past, because they are out of those contracts. Incorrect. Phantom has been running at a loss since it reopened, and i know that as fact, so this idea you have of Cameron suddenly making millions from the show is misplaced.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2022 7:54:43 GMT
I do agree with the poster above. Yes of course the Broadway grosses are published but it's actually a small piece of information from a huge and complex jigsaw. And I would be very surprised to learn any poster on a good forum would know the exact financial spreadsheets for a Broadway show. It is wrong to say ALW/CM's primary motivation is money. Anyone who has spent any significant amount of time with them would know this. Millionaires already. But artistes of course. Creators. And producers. You know, they may be motivated to have a financially VIABLE show, but that is different. I would put it to you that that is not greed, rather wanting their wonderful creation to continue to enchant audiences for years to come. 2022. 1988. Very VERY different.
And Broadway is not the West End. And Phantom is not in a Lloyd Webber theatre. The forces at play involve more people and are more complex. And believe me, Broadway is VERY money/profit focussed. Like next level. Many producers there would make ALW/CM's alleged "profit motivation" look insignificant. Small fry.
But, you know, let us look at the past. It's no crime for mega musicals to close and return as cheaper versions. Rather, it's universal. Are there any triumphs from the 80s and 90s that returned bigger and more expensive in 2022? I don't think so. The world has changed my Dears! Truly it has.
Anyway, enough on my musings. Back to the facts. All we know now is that the original production closes in February. Nothing is announced for after that. I just think you know, let us celebrate the show and it's 35 years, because what an extraordinary success. EXTRAORDINARY! Rather than complaining let us see it again, (several times perhaps!), let us celebrate it's run. I am grateful to the composer and the producer - because they created this fantastic show. What a glorious achievement. And Bravo to that! And I look forward to see what the future holds.
|
|
|
Post by scarpia on Sept 20, 2022 16:15:35 GMT
Now the producers get 100% of the take every single night, with no estates to pay massive residuals to. That is true, but you have also simplified it, because the producers will still have to pay money out to the 'new director' and 'new designer' (albeit at a fraction of what would have been paid) along with all the other usual costs of running a production in a West End Theatre. This isn't quite the case because the commercial arrangement will be entirely different. The original would have been based on getting a percentage of the gross. With these new ones, it's almost certain that the arrangement will be a one-off fee at the start with all the IP assigned to Mackintosh/RUG, so no royalties or continuing box office percentage. And that fee will be paltry because people like Seth Sklar-Heyn are not anywhere near in the same league as people like Hal Prince and can't command those kinds of fees. From what I hear, the Broadway production has been taken by surprise since they were already in the middle of recasting. Pretty sure this could have continued and its run is being ended, yet again, prematurely.
|
|
|
Post by inthenose on Sept 20, 2022 17:47:22 GMT
That is true, but you have also simplified it, because the producers will still have to pay money out to the 'new director' and 'new designer' (albeit at a fraction of what would have been paid) along with all the other usual costs of running a production in a West End Theatre. This isn't quite the case because the commercial arrangement will be entirely different. The original would have been based on getting a percentage of the gross. With these new ones, it's almost certain that the arrangement will be a one-off fee at the start with all the IP assigned to Mackintosh/RUG, so no royalties or continuing box office percentage. And that fee will be paltry because people like Seth Sklar-Heyn are not anywhere near in the same league as people like Hal Prince and can't command those kinds of fees. From what I hear, the Broadway production has been taken by surprise since they were already in the middle of recasting. Pretty sure this could have continued and its run is being ended, yet again, prematurely. This.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2022 17:42:43 GMT
Oh, nobody on here knows the "commercial arrangement" I don't think. No, no. Unless we have someone from the RUG/CM finance departments here?!
It is very much still credited as Hal Prince's original direction. So his estate will be getting paid.
He can't exactly pop in in person for cast changes now (not sure if he did latterly anyway). So they do need someone to "direct the Prince direction" as t'were.
Nobody knows what Seth's financial package is. Nobody knows if it's a one off or ongoing. Bit insulting to suggest he'd be happy to do it on the cheap though!
(I do also sometimes find a London/NYC snobbery. Nobody in Leicester had any issues with Seth's direction. In fact the atmosphere there was electric. The crowds ecstatic. Wonderful times!)
|
|
|
Post by scarpia on Sept 22, 2022 18:35:43 GMT
Oh, nobody on here knows the "commercial arrangement" I don't think. No, no. Unless we have someone from the RUG/CM finance departments here?! It is very much still credited as Hal Prince's original direction. So his estate will be getting paid. He can't exactly pop in in person for cast changes now (not sure if he did latterly anyway). So they do need someone to "direct the Prince direction" as t'were. Nobody knows what Seth's financial package is. Nobody knows if it's a one off or ongoing. Bit insulting to suggest he'd be happy to do it on the cheap though! (I do also sometimes find a London/NYC snobbery. Nobody in Leicester had any issues with Seth's direction. In fact the atmosphere there was electric. The crowds ecstatic. Wonderful times!) You can believe that no-one knows if it suits you. Hal Prince got 4% of the gross. It was a 'run of show' contract. Meaning that the closure of the original production meant that ended. I'm sure his estate will get something now but it won't be that. And the principal director for the new production is clearly credited as Seth, not Hal (it just says 'Originally Directed by Hal Prince' because he had a stipulation in all his contracts that all future revivals had to say that - so you will see that even on the posters for shows like Cabaret). You're living in an alternate reality if you think Seth Sklar-Heyn is getting paid even 50% of what Hal Prince was. On the subject of Prince, Carol Burnett is leading a campaign to have the Majestic renamed after him once the show departs and I am VERY on board with this: www.nytimes.com/2022/09/21/theater/carol-burnett-hal-prince-broadway.html
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2022 19:14:13 GMT
I haven't hazarded a guess as to SSH's package as a percent of Prince's.
I would stand by my comment that I don't believe anyone on here knows the current financial arran-ge-ments.
Not unless they work in RUG/CM finance.
And if they did one might say they'd be really rather Silly Billys if they were popping on t-internet to spill the financial beans!
|
|
6,276 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by Jon on Sept 23, 2022 0:54:08 GMT
I assume other producers won't be what Cameron and RUG have done with Phantom and Les Mis with their shows because their contracts weren't as generous in terms percentage of gross and/or royalties.
|
|
|
Post by SuttonPeron on Sept 23, 2022 11:24:41 GMT
I haven't hazarded a guess as to SSH's package as a percent of Prince's. I would stand by my comment that I don't believe anyone on here knows the current financial arran-ge-ments. Not unless they work in RUG/CM finance. And if they did one might say they'd be really rather Silly Billys if they were popping on t-internet to spill the financial beans! It doesn´t take a genius to know that SSH, who has only one direction credit and has mostly served as an associate director in Mackintoshs´ productions will recieve much less than someone who had directed more than 30 shows, many of them very successful before Phantom.
|
|
|
Post by SuttonPeron on Sept 23, 2022 11:31:30 GMT
(I do also sometimes find a London/NYC snobbery. Nobody in Leicester had any issues with Seth's direction. In fact the atmosphere there was electric. The crowds ecstatic. Wonderful times!) Leicester was meant to be the start of a tour. People did complain about the unnecessary changes to the staging, direction, and the set, but also understood downscaling the show was needed to bring it to as many venues as possible. And people were concerned it would end up at HMT. Nobody was fired, no jobs were lost, the largest orchestra in the West End was still at Phantom, the Brilliant Original in London was still running... Indeed wonderful times!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2022 13:46:02 GMT
Not sure how I can be any clearer.
I don't know what percent of Prince's salary Seth would get. Nobody's knows if it's "paltry." (I never disagreed that Prince would have had more - his estate may STILL get more for all we know!)
People on here do not know the details of the current "commercial arrangement."
Phantom currently has one of (if not the) largest pit orchestra of any open ended running West End Musical - ongoing wonderful times My Dears! Wonderful times I tell thee.
|
|