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Post by David J on Mar 13, 2021 9:57:52 GMT
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1409084/Curfew-for-men-Will-UK-have-6pm-curfew-for-men-women-safety-evgSorry lads. All those tickets you've gone and bought now the shows have announced they're opening again? Looks like you'll have to exchange to a matinee or cancel them. And say goodbye to that evening pint or meal you've been looking forward to these past few months. What happened to Sarah Everard is horrible so we must put women first. Even though this won't stop the actual psychopaths from going out in the evening. As if lockdown wasn't bad enough. 
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Post by alece10 on Mar 13, 2021 10:21:03 GMT
Of course all men are rapists and murderers and all gays are pedophiles.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 13, 2021 10:36:07 GMT
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Post by juicy_but_terribly_drab on Mar 13, 2021 12:34:16 GMT
God I hate the media and how much they stir up rubbish to distract from the real issues. All they're doing by giving such ridiculous suggestions as a 6pm curfew for men this much attention is distracting from the real issues that allow rape culture and toxic masculinity to persist and create entitled, violent men. The culture wars are really killing all progress because while everyone's distracted arguing over trivial stuff like Dr. Seuss books going out of print and Pepe Le Pew getting cancelled, real people are suffering and those actually important but difficult to solve problems (or problems with solutions that are not beneficial to those in power) go ignored.
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Post by talkingheads on Mar 13, 2021 12:40:26 GMT
People do realise she said this in relation to a prior comment relating to women staying in to highlight how ridiculous it is as a notion? Nobody is actually advocating for this but it makes for a great outrage headline and here we are.
The amount of men absolutely telling on themselves by taking women's awful stories of fear and twisting it to make it an attack on men over the last few days is disgraceful. Nobody is saying it's all men. But, as several women have pointed out, they have no idea who is a good man and who isn't when out alone.
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Post by vdcni on Mar 13, 2021 12:54:30 GMT
It's a non story. Anyone talking about this is simply trying to distract attention from the actual issues.
We saw the same last year with BLM when conservative voices diverted the argument onto side show aspects like statues and changing old TV shows as soon as they could.
It's done so they can avoid engaging with the real problem and paint those concerned with the actual issues as ridiculous.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 13, 2021 13:00:35 GMT
People do realise she said this in relation to a prior comment relating to women staying in to highlight how ridiculous it is as a notion? Nobody is actually advocating for this but it makes for a great outrage headline and here we are. The amount of men absolutely telling on themselves by taking women's awful stories of fear and twisting it to make it an attack on men over the last few days is disgraceful. Nobody is saying it's all men. But, as several women have pointed out, they have no idea who is a good man and who isn't when out alone. Mark Drakeford did take it seriously and said it was worthy of careful consideration. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 13:42:36 GMT
I've been following some interesting discussions on Reddit recently where — unusually for the Internet — everyone was trying their damnedest to see others' points of view without trying to score points off everyone else. In particular, many men were asking what they can do to help women feel safer. Several of the points I took away from those discussions were:
* The overwhelming majority of men have been listening to women, and want to do the right things.
* The overwhelming majority of men are already doing exactly what women say they should be doing.
* There is a very small minority of men who are a problem, and they don't care that they're a problem.
* There is a very small minority of women who don't care how hard men try because it'll never be enough.
It's not a matter of educating people. Men aren't brought up to think it's OK to harass women. The people who do it know that it's not acceptable but they just don't give a damn. Short of making things like cat-calling and wolf-whistling a criminal offence (and I'd be fine with that, but how well could it be enforced?) what can be done to stop it?
How do you make people who don't care, care?
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Post by sph on Mar 13, 2021 15:20:37 GMT
How do you make people who don't care, care? This is exactly it. If a man is inclined to commit rape or murder, he already knows that what he is doing is wrong. That being said, a higher police presence on the streets at night would be beneficial around areas of London where attacks are common. Men can do all the things like crossing the street etc to make women feel less threatened, but that won't prevent the actual attacks from happening. We need to make tangible changes to combatting crime. An ordinary man crossing the road or hurriedly overtaking or being on the phone isn't going to help a woman if an actual rapist is around the corner. I remember reading a post from an old friend on facebook once saying that once, on a train, she was the only woman in a carriage with about twenty men. She said that she was worried because if she got raped there'd be no one there to prevent it. I couldn't help but think that this was a ridiculous way to look at the situation. If one of those twenty men was a rapist, there would be NINETEEN other men there to stop it. The only fight I've ever seen break out on a tube happened because a man basically punched a drunk guy harassing women. |
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Post by talkingheads on Mar 13, 2021 20:38:03 GMT
A lot of sickening images and videos of police brutality towards women at a peaceful protest tonight.
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Post by alece10 on Mar 13, 2021 20:52:00 GMT
Is this the same gathering that was banned by the courts due to the Covid pandemic?
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Post by talkingheads on Mar 13, 2021 21:11:00 GMT
Is this the same gathering that was banned by the courts due to the Covid pandemic? Yes. But nevertheless police officers manhandling people, especially women, unnecessarily especially today is an extremely bad look. |
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Post by NeilVHughes on Mar 13, 2021 21:35:01 GMT
The organised event was cancelled.
This was women deciding to take their daily exercise/walk at the same time in the same place which included the Duchess of Cambridge earlier in the day.
This was always going to happen, the Police and Home Office should have worked with the organisers to make as safe a COVID compliant vigil as possible, spread throughout the day as requested by the organisers who were warned to stay away or be fined and therefore the women who wanted to show their respect only had one choice which was to act independently and choose to take their allowed exercise simultaneously.
With the Bill going through Parliament next week this is what will happen to anyone who decides to peacefully protest in the future, the right to protest in Britain potentially becomes illegal from next week and dissent will no longer be tolerated.
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Post by talkingheads on Mar 13, 2021 22:02:33 GMT
The organised event was cancelled. This was women deciding to take their daily exercise/walk at the same time in the same place which included the Duchess of Cambridge earlier in the day. This was always going to happen, the Police and Home Office should have worked with the organisers to make as safe a COVID compliant vigil as possible, spread throughout the day as requested by the organisers who were warned to stay away or be fined and therefore the women who wanted to show their respect only had one choice which was to act independently and choose to take their allowed exercise simultaneously. With the Bill going through Parliament next week this is what will happen to anyone who decides to peacefully protest in the future, the right to protest in Britain potentially becomes illegal from next week and dissent will no longer be tolerated. Ironically making protests illegal will create far more protests. I have never been on a march but I appreciate how they unite people in a common cause. |
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Post by NeilVHughes on Mar 13, 2021 22:19:01 GMT
Having seen the videos of how the Police allowed the Rangers supporters free reign to celebrate last week maybe the women should have disguised themselves as male football supporters.
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Post by distantcousin on Mar 13, 2021 22:38:54 GMT
People do realise she said this in relation to a prior comment relating to women staying in to highlight how ridiculous it is as a notion? Nobody is actually advocating for this but it makes for a great outrage headline and here we are. The amount of men absolutely telling on themselves by taking women's awful stories of fear and twisting it to make it an attack on men over the last few days is disgraceful. Nobody is saying it's all men. But, as several women have pointed out, they have no idea who is a good man and who isn't when out alone. Mark Drakeford did take it seriously and said it was worthy of careful consideration. Not surprised. He's an utter lunatic. How he ever got to be in a position of power, I'll never know. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 23:14:55 GMT
Men aren't brought up to think it's OK to harass women. Some men aren't. It's naive in the extreme to think that all men are brought up to respect women because they just aren't. It's a sad fact of life that the prevailing view in some cultures is that men can do what they like and women just have to put up with it. Blanket statements like yours do not help. Nor does assuming that women are being hysterical when they say they feel unsafe being the only woman in a train carriage with 20 men. Assuming one of those men would help her out of an uncomfortable situation is also naive. Some might, yes, but we can't know we are surrounded by the good ones, especially when in order to help a woman a man might have to risk his own life. You can all say you would be willing to do it, but you can't know how you would react until you are actually in a situation - you might decide differently if there was a knife or something else like that involved. So all we can do is look out for ourselves. What I would love is for every man to be dressed up convincingly as a woman and forced to walk through a crowded bar/club full of drunk men, or the medina in Marrakesh, or a dark alleyway leading away from a main road without any CCTV and no windows from nearby houses facing onto that alley. Only then would you know what it feels like to be a woman, and only then could you truly appreciate the problem. But seeing as that isn't possible, just don't tell women we are being paranoid or that we can't possibly feel unsafe in a train carriage full of men. Let us tell you what is safe and what isn't, you have no right to decide that for us. If we tell you we feel safer if you cross the road rather than follow us up it, then do it. The broader problem may not be easily fixed, but the more men listen to women and do follow those easy things many of us are suggesting, then that at least is a start. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 13, 2021 23:48:52 GMT
I have frequently felt unsafe on a train journey or walking the streets of Oxford.
Curiously I tend to feel safer in London as the parts I frequent are busy with other people.
I would say it impossible to make the streets feel safe for everyone. Fear is not always rational and can be triggered by a whole range of factors. Not all of these can be eliminated.
This is not to say that there are not steps that can be taken. But we have to be realistic in what we think we can achieve.
Men are far more likely to be the victims of assault/murder. Women are far more likely to be the victims of sexual assault/domestic violence.
Yes, the majority of perpetrators are men. But a significant percentage are not.
There are issues that need to be addressed. But there is a sad truth that new laws will not deter many wannabe offenders. When someone is intent on committing an act of violence, they are not thinking through the legal ramifications.
We will never have the resources to have police on every corner day and night acting as deterrents. And quite frankly I don't think anyone wants to live with that level of police presence. Much police work is reactive. There is a limit to the deterrence they can offer.
I am also not convinced that harsher sentences will act as a deterrence. Murder already comes with a mandatory life sentence. Yes, that means 10 to 15 years for many. But the psychology of violent criminals would not suggest that long sentences have any significant effect.
Greater prospect of conviction might have an effect. But again in the heat of the moment that sort of rational thinking is very rare.
Thankfully stranger abduction/murder cases are very rare. The fact that this most recent case seems to have been committed by a serving police officer makes it feel worse. But it also rather serves to highlight the point that the law and associated consequences are ignored by those who are intent on committing acts of violence.
It is impossible to dismiss the human tragedy of people who lose their lives in moments of almost unimaginable horror. They will always resonate with the wider public.
But noone has yet articulated a plan that will actually make a real difference to situations where violent assault is in the offing.
I have no idea what those steps would be. I wish I did.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2021 6:23:37 GMT
Men aren't brought up to think it's OK to harass women. Some men aren't. It's naive in the extreme to think that all men are brought up to respect women because they just aren't. It's a sad fact of life that the prevailing view in some cultures is that men can do what they like and women just have to put up with it. Blanket statements like yours do not help. Some cultures, yes. But in Britain most men are not brought up that way. Some men don't respect women but it's not because they're brought up to think that's OK. They're brought up to think it's not OK but they do it anyway. That's a fundamentally different problem and requires a fundamentally different approach. (And yes, I know there are some religions where half the population is treated as an underclass, but that's a different type of problem altogether.)
Women keep saying that only women know what it's like to be a woman, but many of you also seem to think that only women know what it's like to be a man. Please listen to us when we tell you how we see things. Inventing a fantasy image of men in which they're all monsters and then attacking men as if that fantasy was true does not help either. (For example, your first sentence in the quote below: "you have no right to decide that for us". That's something you're claiming I think. It's not something I think.)
You're illustrating part of the problem right here. Men are already listening to women, and have been for a long time. All the things you're saying are things we already know. We are listening to you say what makes you feel safe. The problem isn't getting men in general to understand. The problem is in trying to change the behaviour of the fraction of men who know exactly what they are doing when they harass or threaten women and do it anyway.
And it is just a fraction. In one discussion someone was saying that she goes jogging every day and probably gets unwanted attention of some sort several times a week, but she also made the point that she passes hundreds of people on each run and almost all of them are no problem at all. She knows it's only a minuscule number of men that are an issue but it doesn't feel that way. That discussion, at least, appreciated that most men are already doing everything right.
If you pay attention to the discussions that have been and are happening you'll see that men are already doing things like crossing the road to avoid following a single woman at night, or stopping to let her get further ahead, or choosing not to sit near her on an empty train. I'm certainly aware of those things because I've been engaging with the problem for years. Many men have. But it's not as simple as saying "do what women suggest" because different things make different people feel safe. In one recent discussion one woman suggested that men could use a flashlight at night because a person who's up to no good wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves, but then someone else pointed out that a bright light can be used to dazzle and disorient a potential victim. If a man halts for a minute to let a woman get ahead of him, what about the other woman who thinks "Why's he lurking there doing nothing?" In some cases there's no right answer.
What's certain is that the answer is not to berate the men who are already engaging with the issue.
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Post by nick on Mar 14, 2021 11:43:22 GMT
I'm sorry but men (ALL men) still need to be educated. We (men) are more likely to objectify another person (I want to say women but it goes deeper than that). The reason is that our behaviour is reinforced by what we see around us especially when we are growing up. We see women being objectified by the media (Daily Mail, I'm looking at you). We still see actions left unchallenged. Not gender but how shocking was it to see Alex, the weatherman, atanding up to Piers Morgan?
Let's put the responsibility on men to look to their behaviour, to challenge behaviour we know is wrong. It's often small things - interrupting a women talking where we wouldn't do the same to a man, eyeing a woman inappropriately etc. I'm a child of the 60s/70s and I HOPE that I have never upset a woman by my actions but I suspect I have and I apologise.
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Post by theatreian on Mar 14, 2021 11:54:39 GMT
I must admit I would not walk alone at night where I live in South Birmingham. I usually feel safer in central London too. It is a very difficult area for everyone as making everywhere feel safe is an almost impossible task. This latest tragedy is at least making everyone more aware of how everyone thinks and feels. I don't know if the same level of fear exists in other countries such as the France or Spain for instance. In some areas better street lighting may make a difference .
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Post by Jan on Mar 14, 2021 12:12:22 GMT
The organised event was cancelled. This was always going to happen, the Police and Home Office should have worked with the organisers to make as safe a COVID compliant vigil as possible, Why the Home Office ? Sadiq Khan as Mayor is the equivalent of the Police and Crime Commissioner for London and is responsible for policing in London - it is his direct responsibility, nothing at all to do with the Home Office. |
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Post by NeilVHughes on Mar 14, 2021 12:28:21 GMT
Mayor - oversight
Home Office - control
London's mayor is responsible for the Metropolitan Police's priorities and monitoring performance.
Operational matters is the responsibility of the Metropolitan Police commissioner who is appointed by the Home Secretary and due to the National responsibilities in areas such as terrorism is the primary line of accountability.
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Post by Jan on Mar 14, 2021 13:06:15 GMT
Mayor - oversight Home Office - control London's mayor is responsible for the Metropolitan Police's priorities and monitoring performance. Operational matters is the responsibility of the Metropolitan Police commissioner who is appointed by the Home Secretary and due to the National responsibilities in areas such as terrorism is the primary line of accountability. No you are wrong, your quick googling of this has let you down. The person responsible for doing what you proposed is the Mayor, not the Home Office. The Home Secretary is *only* responsible for the Met's national priorities such as anti-terrorism, *not* for purely London-based policing. I mean I get you don't want to criticise the Mayor because he's in the Labour party but he is directly responsible, that's just a fact. |
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Post by NeilVHughes on Mar 14, 2021 13:48:08 GMT
The Commissioner is accountable in law for exercising police powers and to the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime (MOPAC) and is held to account for the delivery of policing by the Home Secretary and the Mayor of London. Both have a role in appointing the Commissioner, with the decision taken by the Home Secretary following consultation with the mayor.
Therefore the Home Office is equally culpable if not more by what happened with Extinction Rebellion.
Extinction Rebellion were banned by the issuing of a Section 14 order by the MET which was carried out against the will and knowledge of the Mayor which would imply the management and control of demonstrations lies outside the Mayoral office.
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