The National Theatre General Thread

Probably an unpopular opinion round here but personally I've never been a huge fan of this idea in London that all arts venues have to be free for all public spaces as well. There should be/are public toilets, libraries, lounges, student centres and community centres for people that need to work or use the facilities. There have been too many times going to the Barbican or NT to see something where I have found nowhere to sit and have a drink or meet friends because there are crowds of people working, sleeping, studying charging phones and so on. I believe there needs to be a balance between exclusivity (to manage numbers) and inclusiveness but I think in London the venues take it too far to the point where it is actually unpleasant at times. Why not have them open to the public when there is nothing on but to ticket holders, tours and people using the bar/restaurants for events?

Considering the amount of money that has been spent on at least two big refurbishments in the last 20 odd years, i agree the place looks poor. I too am getting tired of the amount of people, mostly students who are there to take advantage of the free wifi. But yes, the SBC is similar as is the new Other Place in Stratford. Maybe we're just getting old.

Yes, I like the fact that the foyers of the NT and RFH are available and free to use.

I think the RFH has the balance right - the upper level foyers are open to ticket holders only when there's a show on. In the members' bar they also have a "gadget free" policy in the evening (which in practice really just means no laptops) so the areas aren't occupied by people working.

Yes, yes, trust me I have many posh right on Guardian reading type friends with the old "we love those plucky skateboarders under the NT, makes us feel a frisson of urban grittiness between the cocktails and the show" attitude that say the same things. Doesn't mean there isn't a problem during intervals and before shows with capacity and maintenance issues mentioned above. 

And I know people of that sort really wish your elitist hobbies were shared with the "common man", but the fact is theatre is a niche interest and giving people free wifi and a sofa isn't going to get the queuing up for Ibsen I'm afraid. Best to just accept that different people enjoy different things - because football stadiums and street dance clubs aren't suddenly going to open their doors to you.

The only good point you make is the council funding stipulations, if that's the case then that's how it has to be. 

Yes, yes I'm such a posh right on Guardian reader...

But I think you'll find 'common' is a much more used descriptor of me. 

But anyway flinging thinly veiled insults aside, there is no reason there isn't a good compromise, as with RFH a 'ticket holders' floor/area is perfectly reasonable on days the NT has a full rep happening. Which incidentally is rarely. They do also make announcements to try and clear the place, but frankly probably don't have enough staff to check everyone in the building. Also someone could in fact be sat there with a laptop AND seeing the show. 

I'm not sure how likely people who just wander in to sit down are to go on and see Ibsen, but I suspect they are more likely to do that (or at least get an idea of what's on, how much things cost etc) than they are if they are locked out.

Other places are going down the same route - eg the Royal Opera House opening up the public areas during the day (as with the RFH there are still bars which are for ticket holders only), and the Colliseum was planning the same thing but not seen any sign of that happening yet.

The National could probably free up a lot of space if they just switched the wifi off at 6PM . Or you only get 30 minutes wifi unless you type in an access code that's on your theatre ticket, or something.

RFH? Over tired and failing to identify.

So I go to Nt fairly often but go as often again as noted as warm, free place to hang out when I'm between other less spacious theatre going. So is that 'allowed?'

It is busier than it once was and yes sometimes harder to find somewhere close to sit but better that than empty. But yes I miss those leather sofas too.

What a shame some people in this thread are coming across so whiny, as above, about having trouble finding somewhere to sit in the NT or as you've mentioned here, the Barbican. Though you might bear in mind the latter is part of a large residential complex - heaven forbid any of the residents might be among those inconveniently taking up space. Also a shame that in your later post you had to needlessly dribble some bile onto the discussion, as @emicardiff commented.

When you go into public places, sometimes they're crowded and you can't find a seat or SHOCK HORROR you have to wait for one. The idea that the NT should be protected from this by - what? showing tickets for admission to the bar, eating areas and shop? - is laughable. Though I assume the catering and shop managers wouldn't be laughing, nor thanking whoever was responsible for such a ridiculous notion.

So what if public access doesn't result in mass attendance at productions? That's not a reason to exclude non-ticket holders. I can't believe anyone thinks it is but they evidently do.

As to the actual thread subject, I haven't been to the NT much recently but on the rare occasions I have, I can't say I've especially noticed the tattyness. But yeah I'm sure it's down to the hordes of grubby non-theatregoers.

After Mrs Backdrifter said how much she LIKES the bare concrete look and I finished rolling my eyes, my comment was that it looked like a 1970s university. I half expected to see Howard Kirk on his way to a sociology tutorial.

I don't think it's any worse than the houses at the end of so many Grand Designs episodes, the ones consisting mainly of white space and entire walls of glass, designed and lived in by psychos.

Nearly every theatre I've been to in the world has this system, it's really not that complicated - I suspect in the scramble for self-righteousness and empty PR sounding sloganeering about "openness" people on this thread haven't really stopped to question the logic of why a theatre has to be a public space, why it has to be provide a student learning zone and free office space and conference call centre. And I hate to burst your echo chamber, but many people are annoyed by this - go and eavesdrop on people crowding round ten to a table or wandering back and forth trying to find a seat or somewhere to have a drink.

If I walk past the NT after work at 5.30 and I feel like seeing one of the very rarely sold out shows I'm not going to feel inclined to spend a hard earned £40 if I can't sit and relax somewhere comfortable for the 2 hours before the show starts. I suppose the NT doesn't need the money or the money of people who would spend at the bar if they could find a spot.

Another thing I'm curious about which I suspect this all stems from - I'm interested in a wide variety of arts, music and events, but it only seems to be theatre, and specifically theatre in London, that has this weird, almost guilty anguish from its patrons. All this handwringing about making everything OPEN TO ALL^TM etc. I never see anywhere else. I guess it must be a kind of self-loathing about being interested in a medium considered (using phrases I've seen here) posh and elite. But I'm just not susceptible to that, different demographics like different things, it's not automatically a bad thing. This stuff about people feeling excluded seems to be mostly projection, again stemming from that conflict about being interested in what is considered an "elite" artform. Don't be so insecure. 

I can't say I've ever found it a problem to get a seat or find an area in the NT, even downstairs where you would expect it to be an issue. Obviously up at the Olivier levels it tends to be theatre goers only.

With a book shop, bar and cafe to support plus free exhibitions I would think the NT would find it tricky to stop non ticket holders coming in during theatre times with its current layout.

Personally I'd like theatre to be accessible and open to all not because I'm feeling guilt or self loathing but because I love it and want other people to experience it as well plus the more people who love theatre the more there will be so a win for current theatre goers.

I'll leave the feeling superior to the 'masses' to other people on this thread.

hehe I did have a chuckle at the above...

Some of the data should be in their annual reports and/or some of the ACE published data...as it happens I need to look for other facts and figures about the NT for work this week, so I might have a dig about for some of these fun facts today as well...oh that's right I know how to live...

Meanwhile I shall be sure to do my best charity work with the great unwashed of the South Bank next time I'm in town.

Incidentally the far end (away from the bookshop) has a great view of the BFI 'Stage Door' and you can do some excellent celeb spotting if that's your bag. It' also where I sat close enough to touch Tamin Greig one time. But the restraining order has prevented that.