19,799 posts
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 14, 2018 12:32:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 13:15:13 GMT
As far as I can tell, half the rage is because the character has been reported to be "hugely effete, very camp and very funny". If Disney want to break ground and receive praise, they could write a character who doesn't initially sound like a basic '70s stereotype, or at the VERY least cast an actor with the skill to bring an enormous amount of depth to even the most shallowly-written role.
As for the wider argument of whether it should have been a gay actor... I'm going to say yes, in this case. Of course gay actors can and do play straight characters, and vice versa, but if Disney are going to make a fuss over "look! Gay representation! Isn't that GREAT?", then it would have been a really nice move to cast a gay actor, really commit to the thing and really show that even the universally wholesome House of Mouse don't want actors to hide their sexuality. People look up to Disney, whether they should or not, and this could have been a really positive step forward. At the moment, it doesn't sound promising.
As ever, I'm willing to be proven wrong - maybe Jack Whitehall has learned to act? Maybe the character will actually be genuinely great? - but I can fully understand the initial dismay echoing around the internet today.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 14, 2018 13:45:27 GMT
I am far more offended by the creation of yet another boringly stereotypical gay character than a casting decision.
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on Aug 14, 2018 14:32:29 GMT
I'm falling back on my usual rules: - sexuality is not relevant to acting ability, gay actors can play straight and straight actors can play gay - don't judge something before it has even been made, let alone seen by anyone - click-bait journalism means that casting stories are spun to generate the most possible hits and very often are not accurate - anything published in August (aka silly season) will be even less reliable than usual because all the news outlets are scrabbling around for stories - Twitter is where nuance and reason goes to die
Edit: I've just seen that the source for the initial story is The Sun. FFS, people, haven't we learnt anything from every single 'next Bond' story they have ever published that turned out not to be true?! They're not a reliable source for film news!
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on Aug 14, 2018 14:36:23 GMT
but if Disney are going to make a fuss over "look! Gay representation! Isn't that GREAT?", then it would have been a really nice move to cast a gay actor, really commit to the thing and really show that even the universally wholesome House of Mouse don't want actors to hide their sexuality. People look up to Disney, whether they should or not, and this could have been a really positive step forward. At the moment, it doesn't sound promising. Is it Disney making a fuss? Or is it the usual thing of the internet blowing something out of all proportion?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 14:40:39 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 15:08:17 GMT
My main issue with this news isn’t the casting of a straight man as a gay character. If we are going to criticise that, then we can’t have it both ways. Gay characters who are not relegated to sidekick status or seen to struggle with their sexuality or are two-dimensional are virtually non-existant in media.
For this reason it is the use of a straight actor whose entire gimmick is to supposedly camp up for laughs that I take issue with. Recently there was a YouTube personality doing the very same “comedy routine” at the expense of gay and effeminate men (whose name I refuse to write or give any more views) which I equally find in very poor taste. I fail to see how making a gag out of an often ridiculed characteristic of a minority group can be seen as acceptable.
Eric McCormack does a great job of a straight actor representing a gay character without making him a laughing stock.
That said, it’s only a knee-jerk reaction based on a limited amount of information. Full judgement should be reserved until more is known.
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716 posts
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Post by indis on Aug 14, 2018 15:40:48 GMT
oh please, is it now obligatory to state your sexual orientation before going to an audition? are now only gay people allowed to play gays? well, then only white straight people will play white straight ones and so one oh please
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 16:02:52 GMT
The more I think about this the trickier it gets. You can really tie yourself in knots with this stuff. My initial reaction is that the opportunity should go to a gay actor; then I wonder if All gay actors want to be identified as such given that, as someone said upthread, it’s nobody’s business. It suddenly feels very weird to have parts designated for queer actors but then black actors have had this for years. It isn’t all that clear cut. I’m straight(ish) and don’t feel all that qualified to contribute. I think Disney should listen to the voices of gay performers.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 16:03:55 GMT
I'm falling in the category of 'of course we should wait until it's done to be OUTRAGED'
However I do reserve the right to go 'Ugh Jack Whitehall' when he's cast in ANYTHING other than being himself because, as @baemax rightly points out his acting ability is slightly....limited.
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Post by d'James on Aug 14, 2018 17:00:50 GMT
I’m going to copy what I posted elsewhere:
I’m not that upset by the straight man playing a gay role thing (although that would be an even bigger step forward for Hollywood seeing as there are so few out actors). It’s the character description that worries me more. I guess we’ll have to wait and see. Hopefully Jack Whitehall wouldn’t have agreed to anything too stereotypically offensive.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 20:15:17 GMT
Couldn't care less that he is straight, if we get into only gay people play gay roles and straight play straight we are getting info dangerous territory. And we aren't that far from that as it is with recent 'outrages'
However, and I usually hate the Twitter brigade, the fact that they seem to be having their first gay character as a stereotype from about 40 years ago for cheap laughs is a much bigger issue. It's bad enough theatre promotes these stereotypes, but for Hollywood to do it which reaches far more people is hugely disappointing
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 20:17:22 GMT
oh please, is it now obligatory to state your sexual orientation before going to an audition? are now only gay people allowed to play gays? well, then only white straight people will play white straight ones and so one oh please actually sexual orientation is becoming more common on forms as the government want it for statistics. university's now have to supply that information to government. so it wouldn't surprise me if it spreads as it's the only way to tick that box to prove diversity
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2018 21:02:50 GMT
Twitter isn't one seething mass, btw, though I appreciate it may seem that way. It's reasonably representative of wider society's views, so a good place for journos/bloggers/whoever to gather opinions without having to talk to people, unless it's important for your article that you have the opinion of someone who thinks Twitter is dumb and would never set digital foot in the place.
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Post by asfound on Aug 15, 2018 3:23:41 GMT
It's reasonably representative of wider society's views Lol.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 7:49:08 GMT
Thanks for your searing insight there, what a terrific contribution to the conversation.
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on Aug 15, 2018 11:34:16 GMT
You joke, but it is of course possible that he is bisexual and closeted. Are we going to force people out of the closet in order to play non-straight roles?
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630 posts
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Post by jamb0r on Aug 15, 2018 12:07:34 GMT
I wish more production companies would look at Captain Holt from the TV show Brooklyn Nine Nine for an example of how to get LGBT representation done correctly. The character is gay, but it is only ever mentioned in passing briefly every few episodes, where there is a reference to or scenes including the characters husband. Him being gay is such a minor part of his character - he's just like all the other guys, apart from he's married to a man.
Oh, and the character is played by a straight man
I know we should 'wait and see' but from the short description of Jack Whitehall's character it sounds like he's going to be playing an ancient stereotype.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 12:42:34 GMT
Although another cool thing about Brooklyn Nine Nine is that they now have an openly bisexual character played by an openly bisexual actress. Again, it's only one facet of her character, but the double level of representation is being well-received by fans, particularly as bisexuality is ridiculously widely misunderstood considering it basically just means "attracted to both men and women".
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 12:47:54 GMT
Although another cool thing about Brooklyn Nine Nine is that they now have an openly bisexual character played by an openly bisexual actress. Again, it's only one facet of her character, but the double level of representation is being well-received by fans, particularly as bisexuality is ridiculously widely misunderstood considering it basically just means "attracted to both men and women". I mean it's SUCH complex concept, the whole 'see women, I'm attracted to them, see men, I'm attracted to them too' you'd see why people struggle right. I mean I felt like I needed a whole other degree, just to understand this one facet of my personality. But seriously yes, all for the casual 'oh and I'm married to a/dating a [insert gender of choice] here' Russell T Davies, one of our I think it's fair to say pioneers of LGBT representation on tv said (to paraphrase) he really wanted to get to a point where he could just write a detective show where the detective comes home and casually greets his husband and that's it, no big deal. So to go back to the original point, I've more of an issue with Disney being potentially lazy in it's storytelling than I do with who is playing the part. (But I maintain, someone who could act would be GRAND)
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on Aug 15, 2018 13:18:36 GMT
I know we should 'wait and see' but from the short description of Jack Whitehall's character it sounds like he's going to be playing an ancient stereotype. Please correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the actual description of the character come from The Sun, not from Disney? Just because The Sun says an anonymous source told them something doesn't mean that it's true. Even if they did have an anonymous source and they've quoted them accurately (which are not things you can take for granted with The Sun!), we have no idea whether that person is actually in a position to know what the character will be like - quite apart from the fact that characters in these big budget Disney films evolve considerably during the production process, with scripts treated more like a rough guideline for how the characters will move between the big action set-pieces than actual character studies. I find it really hard to believe that the people making this film at Disney actually intend this character to be a retrograde stereotype. I find it very easy to believe that The Sun is playing to their audience's expectations about gay characters in padding out minor casting news into a click-bait story. Whether Whitehall performs the character well or not is another thing - he has been rather limited as an actor in the past. But, you know, sometimes actors can surprise you, with the right direction.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 14:17:27 GMT
I wish more production companies would look at Captain Holt from the TV show Brooklyn Nine Nine for an example of how to get LGBT representation done correctly. The character is gay, but it is only ever mentioned in passing briefly every few episodes, where there is a reference to or scenes including the characters husband. Him being gay is such a minor part of his character - he's just like all the other guys, apart from he's married to a man. Oh, and the character is played by a straight man I know we should 'wait and see' but from the short description of Jack Whitehall's character it sounds like he's going to be playing an ancient stereotype. Never seen this but it would be great if a straight character was played by a gay actor. Perhaps this already the case - we will never know.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 14:30:11 GMT
Neil Patrick Harris in 'How I Met Your Mother' playing the straightest 'Bro' that ever 'Bro'd'
Going back Rock Hudson in everything he ever did- the great Romantic Hero and straightest character....
I mean the list goes on and on given until very recently almost all gay actors (especially male romantic leads) have been in the closet.
Tangentially there is a case for making the casting of gay actors a political point. The revival of The Boys in the Band did that really well- one of the first commercially succesful plays about openly gay men, revived with a cast of quite famous openly gay men. That's a nice marker of progress and a gesture to a conversation on 'but how far we still have to go'
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 14:53:24 GMT
Historically, and quite rightly so, there are many examples of actors who aren’t heterosexual playing characters with different sexual orientations.
Pam St. Clement in EastEnders Jim Parsons in The Big Bang Theory Sarah Paulson/Cheyenne Jackson in American Horror Story Cynthia Nixon in SATC
It doesn’t rightly matter in any case. It’s only when it’s done in reverse as a punchline that the rampant heteronormativity in society is reinforced.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 15:04:08 GMT
Matt Bomer in 'White Collar'
Russell Tovey in 'Him & Her'
Jonathan Groff in 'Mindhunter'
We can play straight people everyone, just as good as you straight people can!
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