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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 8:19:55 GMT
Does anyone here wear a burqa? Or a niqab, or a hijab, or even any non-Islamic religious dress? *You're* the board member I would most love to hear from on this topic. Honestly, you're NOT going to get a decent discussion on the topic if it's a bunch of non-Muslims hollering at each other in supposed defence of women who can almost certainly speak for themselves if only we were to be so non-arrogant as to actually ask for their input.
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Post by crowblack on Aug 9, 2018 8:20:50 GMT
She appears to have the same view as Boris And so does Ken Clarke, who many people seem to regard as their favourite Tory, especially as he's a prominent Remainer. Honestly, is there anyone on here whose heart genuinely leaps with joy when they see (what is presumably) a woman in a burqa or niqab? This whole thing seems to me to be like that Hans Anderson story where everyone is afraid to say anything, only here's it's the polar opposite of nudity. I suspect, btw, that if the countries that originate and promote these garments didn't sit on top of most of the world's oil this whole debate would be very different, especially in government.
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Post by n1david on Aug 9, 2018 8:22:19 GMT
They were Emily Thorberry’s words, not mine. She appears to have the same view as Boris, which was my point. Personally I couldn’t give a toss what anyone wears. Emily Thornberry doesn’t want to ban the burkha, but isn’t a fan. Boris Johnson doesn’t want to ban the burkha, but isn’t a fan. One of them used insulting language to describe women who wear the burkha. That’s the difference. (Note: writing as no great fan of my constituency MP.)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 8:23:41 GMT
I don't know that "I would actively discriminate against a woman wearing a burkha when hiring a carer" is necessarily *better* than "haha burkhas make you look silly and inhuman and I can't be dealing with them".....
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Post by crowblack on Aug 9, 2018 8:34:07 GMT
in supposed defence of women who can almost certainly speak for themselves if only we were to be so non-arrogant as to actually ask for their input. Pretty much by definition such women are unlikely to be on a theatreboard because their religion also disapproves of most of the arts (but hello, if you are!). Have you ever seen a woman in a burqua or niqab in a theatre? I haven't. The only time I even saw headscarves - not face coverings - were on the schoolgirls at a preview of The Jungle. I lived in several very multiethnic streets in London where I tried to talk to covered women - not veiled, but mostly covered - and they would turn their faces away if a 'westerner' (for want of a better word) tried to talk to them. Even in the corner shop - the man, from North Africa, was very very chatty but his wife, a white British convert from Lancashire - rarely said a word apart from hello, tended to avert her eyes and when she started having babies didn't come in the shop at all. And no, in case you are wondering - this wasn't a reflection on me and the way I look - generally the areas were like Mr Benn with shopkeepers and locals saying hi when I was on my shopping trips or bike rides. My mother taught English and 'settling in" to Somalian refugees in Liverpool and women did not turn up for classes - only men. And these were classes taught by a woman. My friends from Muslim backgrounds are not very religious - they go to pubs etc.. One had a religious phase after 9/11, when he had got verbal abuse in the street, though around the same time he'd had other issues (job loss and an ex). I was talking about this to a friend yesterday who came here from Iran after the revolution, where she was forced to cover up. She often posts pictures of pre-revolution Iran and it could be any country in the Med in the 70s - normal looking women in floral dresses, swimsuits and so on. She is very frustrated by the pussyfooting around the issue here. Btw I have noticed another friend (not Muslim but similar - won't identify in case she reads this!) becoming more religious which I do find surprising and worrying. Another neighbour has moved to Israel, while one of Mum's friends isn't allowed to see her grandchildren because she isn't deemed religious enough to visit by her daughter, who has gone hardcore. Society seems to fragmenting into little compartments. When I was at school or university I don't ever remember giving a thought to what religion people were but now it seems so many people want to be hyphenated by their religion, sexuality etc..
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 9:00:08 GMT
Whether we have such ladies here or not is moot (and let's not forget that we are a teeny-tiny cross-section of the theatre-going public at the end of the day, never mind the wider population) - the point is that it is blisteringly arrogant to talk ABOUT this subject from the outside, like our opinions are thoroughly informed and mean anything, like anyone might care to ask us what the "solution" is, like a solution may even be needed. We can all play the "I have Muslim friends" card, but "I don't mind burqas" vs "I hate burqas" is a really obnoxious argument for people who don't have a horse in the race to think they have the right to super-strong opinions over.
Peace out, someone let me know if this thread goes back to casually insulting Boris Johnson, the li'l sh*t.
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Post by apubleed on Aug 9, 2018 9:12:29 GMT
Whether we have such ladies here or not is moot (and let's not forget that we are a teeny-tiny cross-section of the theatre-going public at the end of the day, never mind the wider population) - the point is that it is blisteringly arrogant to talk ABOUT this subject from the outside, like our opinions are thoroughly informed and mean anything, like anyone might care to ask us what the "solution" is, like a solution may even be needed. We can all play the "I have Muslim friends" card, but "I don't mind burqas" vs "I hate burqas" is a really obnoxious argument for people who don't have a horse in the race to think they have the right to super-strong opinions over. Peace out, someone let me know if this thread goes back to casually insulting Boris Johnson, the li'l sh*t. You have the entire internet at your finger tips to educate yourself in this subject if you don’t feel you know anything about it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 9:42:58 GMT
You have the entire internet at your finger tips to educate yourself in this subject if you don’t feel you know anything about it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 9:46:47 GMT
Peace out, someone let me know if this thread goes back to casually insulting Boris Johnson, the li'l sh*t. Can we get back to politics yo. Or in this case, 'what has this particular lil sh*t got up to this week' cos I am HERE for that part of this thread.
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Post by crowblack on Aug 9, 2018 10:00:48 GMT
don't have a horse in the race I'm a human being. I'm a woman. Horses in this race. No man is an island and all that, and there IS such a thing as society. From my own life experience and that of seeing other people going through a series of - shall we say 'things' - and ending up "finding god" in some extreme form and further isolating themselves I have my own thoughts on this but this is a public forum and not very anonymous so I'll leave you to work out what that is.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 10:09:06 GMT
Peace out, someone let me know if this thread goes back to casually insulting Boris Johnson, the li'l sh*t. Can we get back to politics yo. Or in this case, 'what has this particular lil sh*t got up to this week' cos I am HERE for that part of this thread. Johnson is positioning himself as a populist, this means saying inflammatory things so that he attracts the sad group who think they have been stopped from saying what they want when, in fact, we’ve just become more polite. Being rude and arrogant is apparently a vote winner with some people.
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Post by crowblack on Aug 9, 2018 11:36:14 GMT
Don't try and play this game with me I missed this comment of yours (from a blood pressure point of view, it's a shame I noticed it now). It's not a game. This is about misogyny and the life chances for women. All women, equally. Oh, and incidentally when I use the term "Guardian reading liberal" I do so as one myself, for 30 years now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 12:12:55 GMT
Bringing it back to Mr J, further thought had me guessing that the idea is to destabilise May by backing her into a corner. If she doesn't kick him out of the party, she looks weak. BUT she can't risk losing a seat in the Commons, and quite possibly a constituency if it went to by-election. Would it go to by-election though? Surely he'd just remain as an independent MP, unless his constituency somehow forced a by-election in the same way as Ian Paisley Jr's constituents will hopefully do in the next few weeks. But for that to happen Parliament would have to declare he had committed misconduct (which, to be fair, they probably could find a way of doing).
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Post by crowblack on Aug 9, 2018 13:44:10 GMT
Simply getting his £70k until he has enough other work to resign in his own time? I was just thinking, the old cabinet minister pension plan of going-to-Brussels is no longer there for any of them.
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Post by Mr Snow on Aug 9, 2018 13:52:39 GMT
Boris is definitely a Marmite politician.
Can he be elected to run the country - possibly.
BUT within the Conservative Party he has a lot of support and I can't see him ever being deselected, even if the occupant of No 10 called for it.
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Post by sf on Aug 9, 2018 14:52:50 GMT
Boris is definitely a Marmite politician. Can he be elected to run the country - possibly. BUT within the Conservative Party he has a lot of support and I can't see him ever being deselected, even if the occupant of No 10 called for it.
...and that, frankly, is utterly terrifying. The Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe debacle alone should have ended his political career for good - but somehow, despite all the available evidence against him, people still fall for Boris Johnson's act. If you need proof that critical thinking is dead, there it is.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 15:21:48 GMT
I had a somewhat depressing conversation about Boris Johnson today (as if such a conversation could be anything else), with someone who was well aware that BJ plays to the audience to get them on his side but somehow imagined that this only applied to other people. I couldn't get across the idea that if you think he's on your side then you're one of the ones who have been played,
It's like the fake news problem: for far too many people, fake news is the stuff those other idiots believe.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 9, 2018 15:23:49 GMT
Apropos of nothing very much, my good friend works for the Foreign Office at the British Embassy in a major European capital. BJ visited last year and there were lots of grumbles from the rather left leaning staff about him coming, having to meet and greet, line up and shake hands etc. Anyway he rolled up in the official limo, virtually fell out of the car, suit crumpled, shirt hanging out, hair all over the place etc, and proceeded to charm the knickers off the lot of them for an hour before disappearing off to the ambassadors residence for a boozy lunch. Had them eating out of his hand.
I suspect there’s something about him that only projects in person, which may be why he was a popular mayor. He certainly got out and about and met people. Something that can’t be said for the current incumbent.
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Post by n1david on Aug 9, 2018 15:37:08 GMT
Not everyone in the Foreign service found him so appealing: www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-41453375/boris-johnson-reciting-kipling-in-myanmar-temple-not-appropriateinews.co.uk/news/politics/good-riddance-anguilla-boris-johnsons/Interestingly, I've seen Sadiq Khan in person more than I ever saw Boris (or Ken, come to that). I assume some of that is because I tend to go to events that Sadiq supports and Boris was more lukewarm about, like Pride, but it may also be because Boris's efforts to meet ordinary people were generally connected with stunts like zipwires designed to get column inches and TV coverage, so Sadiq's tend to be rather lower key and not noticed by people other than the attendees. The only time I met Boris in person was at the LGBT Hustings for the 2012 mayoral election. At that meeting he denied that he'd ever written “If gay marriage was OK – and I was uncertain on the issue – then I saw no reason in principle why a union should not be consecrated between three men, as well as two men, or indeed three men and a dog.” in his 2001 book - despite someone having a copy of the book at the hustings.
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Post by kathryn on Aug 9, 2018 15:48:48 GMT
Anyway he rolled up in the official limo, virtually fell out of the car, suit crumpled, shirt hanging out, hair all over the place etc, and proceeded to charm the knickers off the lot of them for an hour before disappearing off to the ambassadors residence for a boozy lunch. Had them eating out of his hand. You know, con artists and grifters are always very personally charming. That's how they get away with being con artists and grifters.... They key is, once you've been taken in by one the first time, not to fall for it again. Which means doing the painful personal work of admitting that you were conned. That last bit is the part that the electorate seems to struggle with, these days.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 15:49:14 GMT
Oh I rather like Sadiq. He's like a little pocket Mayor. One you can pick up and take anywhere to any event. I'm sure you could fit him in a bag if need be, like a little chihuahua.
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Post by Mr Snow on Aug 9, 2018 15:53:34 GMT
Someone I know was in the Chamber when he chaired his first council meeting as Mayor. At the end he said that concluded business, he’d like to thank everyone and announced “Now I have to get ready to meet the Gentlemen and Ladies of the Press for a Q&A.” He then lifted both hands to his head and vigorously ruffled his hair. “Now I’m ready.” And he marched out to much laughter.
My point is that although it’s an act, he knows it is and thoroughly enjoys playing to the audience. His methods have brought him wealth and position.
I underestimated Trump and I don’t want to make that mistake again. People who call either of them idiots, are missing a lot about what they do.
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Post by Mr Snow on Aug 9, 2018 15:59:41 GMT
Anyway he rolled up in the official limo, virtually fell out of the car, suit crumpled, shirt hanging out, hair all over the place etc, and proceeded to charm the knickers off the lot of them for an hour before disappearing off to the ambassadors residence for a boozy lunch. Had them eating out of his hand. You know, con artists and grifters are always very personally charming. That's how they get away with being con artists and grifters.... They key is, once you've been taken in by one the first time, not to fall for it again. Which means doing the painful personal work of admitting that you were conned. That last bit is the part that the electorate seems to struggle with, these days. The favourite victim of a professional con man is always a 'mark' he's successfully defrauded before. Most people refuse to believe they were conned, so successfully do they buy into the story, hence they are ripe for the taking a second and subsequent time. Read David Maurer's The Big Con.
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Post by sf on Aug 9, 2018 16:40:41 GMT
I underestimated Trump and I don’t want to make that mistake again. People who call either of them idiots, are missing a lot about what they do. Absolutely. An idiot is the one thing Boris Johnson absolutely is not. He's utterly soulless and mercenary and doesn't believe in anything at all apart from the greater advancement of Boris Johnson, but he's also charming and cunning. He knows how to work a crowd, he knows his audience, and - as we saw in that appalling column the other day - he knows how to sound the dog-whistle in a way that gives him plausible deniability later. He is completely dreadful in just about every way, and I would never underestimate him.
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Post by bellboard27 on Aug 9, 2018 16:56:19 GMT
During the EU referendum campaign period I was watching some interviews with fishermen. Almost all very strongly leave, but also scathing about politicians of all colours as you might imagine. However, an interviewer asked one what he thought of Boris - "I would trust him with my life", came the reply. I nearly choked! A least trustworthy politician it is hard to select - but it shows how persuasive he can be, not just about some point he is making, but about also about his personality. As sf says, he is not to be underestimated.
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