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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2018 20:45:35 GMT
Theatre is capable of being for everyone, not just the majority. Some of my facilitation work involves diversity and inclusion efforts. It is not unusual for organizations to have their initial D&I efforts distinct from their usual culture and operations as a separate initiative done on the side. The smart ones usually realize the many shortcomings of doing so. If serious about their D&I commitment, they then disrupt the traditional power and organizational structures and embrace different and far more inclusive ways of achieving their mission. It can be quite challenging to do so, and often takes far longer than anyone would like. |
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Post by kathryn on Oct 27, 2018 21:10:52 GMT
I would guess that in its first year most of the audience the Bridge has attracted are old National Theatre hands - basically, people who know who Nick Hytner is.It will take time to build a new audience in the local community. That is, assuming that there is a ‘local’ community to build an audience from, given the bit of London it’s in - I’m not sure how
many people actually live in those shiny, new, hideously expensive, riverside flats.
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Post by Marwood on Oct 27, 2018 21:14:38 GMT
I didn’t think this was as terrible as some of the reviews have made it out to be, but my main feeling when this ended was just ‘why?’ I just thought far too many jokes ( or attempts at jokes anyway) just didn’t land correctly resulting in many moments of slight embarrassment. I enjoyed the scenes between Andersen and Dickens the most but there was only enough materiel in that for a sketch, not an entire play.
The less said about the time travelling Belgians the better, it only seemed to be an excuse to have the same sort of gunplay as The Lieutenant of Inishmore to pad out proceedings - the TomWaits voiceover introducing part 2 made me think there was originally going to be an interval but McDonagh got to a point, thought ‘sod it’ and just bunged it out as it is, possibly because of this being advertised and tickets sold well before it was in a show worthy state.
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Post by sf on Oct 27, 2018 21:31:57 GMT
I would guess that in its first year most of the audience the Bridge has attracted are old National Theatre hands - basically, people who know who Nick Hytner is.It will take time to build a new audience in the local community. That is, assuming that there is a ‘local’ community to build an audience from, given the bit of London it’s in - I’m not sure how many people actually live in those shiny, new, hideously expensive, riverside flats.
Walk the other side of the railway line into London Bridge, or down Tooley Street past Tower Bridge Road, and there's a much more diverse range of housing - yes, and a fair amount of creeping gentrification too, but there's a fair amount of social housing and a long-established local community in that part of Southwark. I'm sure that kind of outreach would be just as viable at the Bridge as it is at the Young Vic or the Southwark Playhouse.
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Post by sf on Oct 27, 2018 21:33:05 GMT
the TomWaits voiceover introducing part 2 made me think there was originally going to be an interval but McDonagh got to a point, thought ‘sod it’ and just bunged it out as it is, possibly because of this being advertised and tickets sold well before it was in a show worthy state. That's exactly it. I felt like I was watching a first draft. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2018 23:01:08 GMT
The Bridge's productions haven't brought in more diverse audiences, I think it is a real shame they haven't embraced the local community more like the Young Vic especially with Julius Caesar and I don't speak for all BME people but no way would I be going to this if I wasn't offered a free pair of tickets and because my (white) partner is interested, I am not attending until Monday but the casting of black actors is not enough to get racially diverse audiences in, we need diverse stories by and about BME people. Am I the only black person that really doesn't give a sh*t about this kind of thing? I also feel kind of weird that people are scanning the foyer head-counting me. I mean I just acknowledge that theatre is a predominantly middle class pursuit in a predominantly white country. Just as the jazz nights I go to in South London are more of a black thing. Besides, there are so many stories by and about BAME people, way more diversity than anywhere else in the world. I feel far more conspicuous when random people smile and nod patronisingly at me for no apparent reason. Reminds me of the time me and some friends went to some open house art studio event and nearly every one of the white, middle aged artists made a beeline for me and invited me to various things while ignoring my white friends. I understand that race and ethnicity fixation is a constant worry amongst the chattering classes but I'd rather just be treated as anybody else, ta. How do you know that the middle aged artists made a beeline for you because of your colour? |
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Post by asfound on Oct 27, 2018 23:14:46 GMT
Am I the only black person that really doesn't give a sh*t about this kind of thing? I also feel kind of weird that people are scanning the foyer head-counting me. I mean I just acknowledge that theatre is a predominantly middle class pursuit in a predominantly white country. Just as the jazz nights I go to in South London are more of a black thing. Besides, there are so many stories by and about BAME people, way more diversity than anywhere else in the world. I feel far more conspicuous when random people smile and nod patronisingly at me for no apparent reason. Reminds me of the time me and some friends went to some open house art studio event and nearly every one of the white, middle aged artists made a beeline for me and invited me to various things while ignoring my white friends. I understand that race and ethnicity fixation is a constant worry amongst the chattering classes but I'd rather just be treated as anybody else, ta. How do you know that the middle aged artists made a beeline for you because of your colour? Because as I said in my post, they ignored all my friends of similar age, demographic and interests (actually my friends were better qualified and more interested since they were mostly art students whereas I'm a science student). I don't actually know for certain TBF. It's just what it felt like given the context. Not to get too personal, but given previous discussions I feel you are someone who does fetishise race a bit. And I may well be in the minority (of a minority), but I miss the days when I wasn't aware of all this atomisation of identities, when I could just watch a play and relate to the characters regardless of race, gender, sexuality etc. |
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Post by asfound on Oct 27, 2018 23:31:29 GMT
I don't agree there are "so many" stories by BME artists. We will always be in minority but the audiences at shows like Nine Night over shows such as I'm Not Running shows there is a demand, despite the increased supply, to see stories by/about BME people. Theatre is capable of being for everyone, not just the majority. It shouldn't be a novelty nor should it only be staged to get Arts Council money. Maybe you're right, but it's hard to really tell. What is the "correct amount" of BAME stories? I feel I've seen a lot recently. Not just Nine Night, but Misty, Poet in da Corner, a profoundly affectionate, passionate devotion to someone, Tubman, Half Breed etc. And to be honest, I don't get this slavish need to only relate to people that are of the same race/gender as yourself. In fact, the play I felt the deepest connection to this year was the Lehman Trilogy. Not because the characters/actors were of the same race as me (which obviously they weren't), but because their struggle and need to make something better of their lives resonated with me after a lifetime of hearing similar stories from my father (Kenya) and mother (South India). But I guess you're right. There is a big drive in theatre to satisfy white liberal guilt. I just find it very tedious. I never even noticed this stuff when I was growing up in the South West, and now I feel I've become oversensitised to it, and it annoys me. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2018 23:59:43 GMT
asfound when I read your post it struck me that there might be many reasons why those artists might have approached you: you may be very beautiful (beautiful people get a lot of attention); they may have found you more interesting than your friends (you certainly sound interesting) but you assumed it was because of your colour. Your instinct may have been correct. We can’t escape “race” ( a scientifically unsound concept but I use it for the sake of convenience) whether we want to or not. You may be fed up of BAME stories but you can’t speak for everyone. Plays by “white” artists are as much about whiteness and identity as the so-called BAME plays you mention. And accusing someone of fetishising race sounds suitably sensational and shaming but what exactly does it mean? And it is a rather personal accusation to throw at someone you don’t know - except through a few posts on a forum.
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Post by asfound on Oct 28, 2018 0:42:04 GMT
asfound when I read your post it struck me that there might be many reasons why those artists might have approached you: you may be very beautiful (beautiful people get a lot of attention); they may have found you more interesting than your friends (you certainly sound interesting) but you assumed it was because of your colour. Your instinct may have been correct. We can’t escape “race” ( a scientifically unsound concept but I use it for the sake of convenience) whether we want to or not. You may be fed up of BAME stories but you can’t speak for everyone. Plays by “white” artists are as much about whiteness and identity as the so-called BAME plays you mention. And accusing someone of fetishising race sounds suitably sensational and shaming but what exactly does it mean? And it is a rather personal accusation to throw at someone you don’t know - except through a few posts on a forum. I'm a scientist of genetics and I don't consider it unsound. We literally have to control for it because it creates so many confounders. And I never said I was "fed up" of BAME stories, just the idea that I must relate to them for that reason. As I said, I don't consider plays by a person of a particular identity are only relatable to people of the same identity, so frankly I consider your accusation that plays by white people (where are we going with this - it seems pretty dark - most of the time I'm oblivious to the playwright's melanin levels) are only for or about whiteness offensive. I'm sure you related to the character of Nine Night, correct? So why do I need my characters to look the same as me? As for my accusation, it refers to the fact that you do seem to obsess about it a bit, and that's the vibe I get based solely from posts on this forum. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2018 1:50:22 GMT
asfound when I read your post it struck me that there might be many reasons why those artists might have approached you: you may be very beautiful (beautiful people get a lot of attention); they may have found you more interesting than your friends (you certainly sound interesting) but you assumed it was because of your colour. Your instinct may have been correct. We can’t escape “race” ( a scientifically unsound concept but I use it for the sake of convenience) whether we want to or not. You may be fed up of BAME stories but you can’t speak for everyone. Plays by “white” artists are as much about whiteness and identity as the so-called BAME plays you mention. And accusing someone of fetishising race sounds suitably sensational and shaming but what exactly does it mean? And it is a rather personal accusation to throw at someone you don’t know - except through a few posts on a forum. I'm a scientist of genetics and I don't consider it unsound. We literally have to control for it because it creates so many confounders. And I never said I was "fed up" of BAME stories, just the idea that I must relate to them for that reason. As I said, I don't consider plays by a person of a particular identity are only relatable to people of the same identity, so frankly I consider your accusation that plays by white people (where are we going with this - it seems pretty dark - most of the time I'm oblivious to the playwright's melanin levels) are only for or about whiteness offensive. I'm sure you related to the character of Nine Night, correct? So why do I need my characters to look the same as me? As for my accusation, it refers to the fact that you do seem to obsess about it a bit, and that's the vibe I get based solely from posts on this forum. I did not say plays by white authors are only for whites (that’s a disgusting idea) but stand by what I say about them revealing aspects of “whiteness”. I have had friends discuss Lehman brothers and the fact that the wealth was built on cotton, so race is in there somewhere as an untold story. Edward Said writes with great insight on this sort of thing and is infinitely more eloquent than I could ever be. Personally, I relate to plays through their ideas and the emotions they evoke. I relate to well written plays. I don’t have to be a Norwegian man to enjoy Ibsen’s plays. I am a little confused by what you are trying to say: are you calling me out as a racist? Is that what you mean by the fetishisation comment? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2018 7:49:31 GMT
So much for ignoring this thread cleoskryker . . .
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2018 10:01:14 GMT
The Bridge's productions haven't brought in more diverse audiences, I think it is a real shame they haven't embraced the local community more like the Young Vic especially with Julius Caesar and I don't speak for all BME people but no way would I be going to this if I wasn't offered a free pair of tickets and because my (white) partner is interested, I am not attending until Monday but the casting of black actors is not enough to get racially diverse audiences in, we need diverse stories by and about BME people.
I saw 'A Very Very Very Dark Matter' on Wednesday afternoon, and the Young Vic's 'Twelfth Night' on Wednesday evening. The difference between the two audiences was very very very obvious.
Everytime I've been to the Young Vic it was full of young (white) hipsters drinking over-priced cocktails and getting in the way of people who had actually payed to see whatever was on, which is largely why I stopped going, grumpy old bag that I am. If it's changing under the new management, I'm tempted to give it another go.
Look, it's not just the Bridge that has a diversity challenge, is it? My theatre trips of the last few weeks include the NT, the Old Vic and the Finborough, and if the audiences for all of them weren't exclusively white they were pretty close. In general theatre is white and middle class (maybe because theatregoing is perceived as a middle class sport so just going in bumps you up a social notch). You can name one or two theatres that are good at breaking out of that ghetto but they are few and far between.
For a new commercial theatre starting from scratch with all the challenges that entails, I think the Bridge is being reasonably proactive about accessible ticket prices if nothing else. I guess at the moment its overriding concern has to be to get any bums on any seats and build up a returning paying audience base. It's not like it's a subsidised theatre that can get ACE funding for professionally run outreach programmes - it's not really realistic to expect them to have that kind of spare budget at the moment.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2018 10:58:22 GMT
So much for ignoring this thread cleoskryker . . . I changed my mind. |
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Post by Snciole on Oct 28, 2018 12:25:42 GMT
I don't agree there are "so many" stories by BME artists. We will always be in minority but the audiences at shows like Nine Night over shows such as I'm Not Running shows there is a demand, despite the increased supply, to see stories by/about BME people. Theatre is capable of being for everyone, not just the majority. It shouldn't be a novelty nor should it only be staged to get Arts Council money. Maybe you're right, but it's hard to really tell. What is the "correct amount" of BAME stories? I feel I've seen a lot recently. Not just Nine Night, but Misty, Poet in da Corner, a profoundly affectionate, passionate devotion to someone, Tubman, Half Breed etc. And to be honest, I don't get this slavish need to only relate to people that are of the same race/gender as yourself. In fact, the play I felt the deepest connection to this year was the Lehman Trilogy. Not because the characters/actors were of the same race as me (which obviously they weren't), but because their struggle and need to make something better of their lives resonated with me after a lifetime of hearing similar stories from my father (Kenya) and mother (South India). But I guess you're right. There is a big drive in theatre to satisfy white liberal guilt. I just find it very tedious. I never even noticed this stuff when I was growing up in the South West, and now I feel I've become oversensitised to it, and it annoys me. I think you and I might have had similar upbringing. Minorities in mainly white places (I grew up in Southampton with a Jamaican born mum) so at times I approach plays/stories the same way as you.The majority of my friends are white people, it is not odd for me to be in all white enviroents. Whyhouldn't a story about Lehman Brothers have all white men? Why shouldn't The Wipers Times have an all white cast. Equally my upbringing wasn't typically Jamaican so I loved Nine Night but it wasn't my story, just as all plays aren't my story. There are groups of people, oddly living in the same areas as a lot of these theatres that still struggle to see themselves represented positively (imagine the only black roles you see being drug dealers, maids etc) on TV and in theatre. It being better doesn't mean the representation is fair and that representation is for us (actual minorities) as opposed to white audiences, whose social make up is changing (partners, friends, extended family from minorities) and they are no longer feeling represented. The issue right now is we are seeing a lot of black (Afro-Caribbean/African) plays but these were never in the minority (look at the Black Plays Archives) compared to South and East Asian stories but I do have my concerns that this is flavour of the month rather than (mostly white) artistic directors taking a punt on a story because it is good. I wonder how a black writer would be treated if their play was written with white actors only in mind. |
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Post by sf on Oct 28, 2018 13:20:13 GMT
Everytime I've been to the Young Vic it was full of young (white) hipsters drinking over-priced cocktails and getting in the way of people who had actually payed to see whatever was on And that's an accurate description of the clientele in the bar on Wednesday night, as far as I could see, and it's not my scene either. It's not quite an accurate description of the audience for Wednesday night's performance - which, yes, was more white than not, but still significantly more diverse than Wednesday afternoon's audience at the Bridge. For a new commercial theatre starting from scratch with all the challenges that entails, I think the Bridge is being reasonably proactive about accessible ticket prices if nothing else. I guess at the moment its overriding concern has to be to get any bums on any seats and build up a returning paying audience base. Agreed, and I certainly appreciate that they've carefully designed a price structure which includes a good number of cheap seats, and that they have an auditorium in which the view from most of the cheap seats - at least, the ones I've sat in - is quite good. And in my case it's working for them, in terms of them building up a returning paying audience base: I've been four times in the past year, and I've a ticket booked for 'My Name is Lucy Barton' (a return visit, too) next year. I like the place, and I think they're getting a lot of things right, although I didn't love their current production. (I don't think I need to see 'Alys, Always', though, and 'Midsummer Night's Dream' is one of those plays that has been comprehensively ruined for me by being on a reading list for an exam.) |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2018 19:43:47 GMT
@snicole at the risk of taking this thread right off topic I was interested in what you said about black authors writing plays for All white casts. Of course Debbie tucker green did this with her play Stoning Mary and as far as I know her play last year (?) about relationships while it had an all-Black cast - presumably because she cast actors she thought best for that project - did not focus on race or colour - as far as I can recall.
By the way this forum has been an eye opener for me. I have not declared my own ethnicity because I don’t feel I should have to. I think that other posters assume I am white, although my posts and preoccupations might suggest otherwise, but the abuse I have received from people who assume that I don’t know what I’m talking about has been educational to say the least.
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Post by sf on Oct 28, 2018 19:51:45 GMT
So... blog post, which I'm posting here because this show had an odd effect on me: the more I thought about it as I started to write, the more it fell apart. A very very very big miss |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 6:19:05 GMT
By the way this forum has been an eye opener for me. I have not declared my own ethnicity because I don’t feel I should have to. I think that other posters assume I am white, although my posts and preoccupations might suggest otherwise, but the abuse I have received from people who assume that I don’t know what I’m talking about has been educational to say the least. I do hope you have reported those posters who have abused you. The moderators should be made aware of that. |
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Post by lynette on Oct 29, 2018 8:58:08 GMT
Nobody has to declare an ethnicity. People respond to what you say.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 10:23:52 GMT
Representation of different races/nationalities/genders/sexualities on stage is only partly about "hey, are you black, isn't it cool that this story has a well-rounded main character who looks a lot like you and has a family history like yours?", it's also about "hey, are you white, check out this well-rounded main character who looks nothing like you yet is still totally relatable, cool right?". Yeah, I make it sound facile, but honestly, stories are a really vital part of becoming a person. You learn about how different people think, live, behave, you learn about other people and you learn about yourself. It's no accident that kids who grow up reading Harry Potter are more liberal than kids who didn't, and it's not unimportant when people insist their sons can only read books with male protagonists. Maybe by the time we're old enough to be regularly attending theatre, our world views have already been shaped and we don't *need* to see different people's stories in the same way as when we were young and malleable, but it's still stories, and telling different stories is an important part of that. Honestly, if I wanted to watch a load of white cisgender middle-class wankers sitting around a dining table, I can do that every Sunday at my parents' house (or I can just hang in there for the next hit US play to reach these shores). Give me Nine Night, give me Barber Shop Chronicles, give me The Great Wave, give me Misty, give me The Band's Visit, give me An Adventure, tell me stories I *don't* already know, introduce me to characters I *don't* already spend every day with.
Oh, and I hated this play, I thought it was lazily written, incomprehensible with no sense of needing to at least adhere to its own internal logic even if it wouldn't hold up to later scrutiny, and I love a good swear word but it takes more than a kiddie saying "f***" for a joke to be funny. If this were a young inexperienced writer trying to write some kind of McDonagh pastiche, I could let it slide, but I find it very difficult to believe that this was written by the same mind that wrote The Pillowman. Damn shame.
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Post by Snciole on Oct 29, 2018 10:35:29 GMT
Everytime I've been to the Young Vic it was full of young (white) hipsters drinking over-priced cocktails and getting in the way of people who had actually payed to see whatever was on And that's an accurate description of the clientele in the bar on Wednesday night, as far as I could see, and it's not my scene either. It's not quite an accurate description of the audience for Wednesday night's performance - which, yes, was more white than not, but still significantly more diverse than Wednesday afternoon's audience at the Bridge. I think Two Boroughs is a really good scheme to get more of the local community in and I haven't been since Kwame Kwei-Armah took over but I do think his presence will change the makeup of the audience but it will be a slow burn. I don't even fathom why people would hang out in a theatre bar when there are so many better pubs along The Cut. |
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Post by foxa on Oct 29, 2018 12:18:04 GMT
I don't generally eat in theatre bars - Young Vic is always v crowded, but the Old Vic does do a good sharing platter that my daughter and I split on one rushed visit (when we have more time, we usually go to Wahaca or elsewhere) and ....back to the Bridge...the food there is v. good. I haven't booked for this show (didn't appeal, though I am interested to hear about it), but would be willing to go back there for a snack.
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Post by MrsCondomine on Oct 29, 2018 12:51:42 GMT
I'm not even going to attempt the racial discourse route because I'm absolutely not clever enough.
However.
Does anyone else find that the tickets for this are crazily overpriced? Who the hell pays £60 to see Jim "playing himself again" Broadbent?
I may be in the minority but I don't think he's any good...
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Post by sf on Oct 29, 2018 13:32:53 GMT
I'm not even going to attempt the racial discourse route because I'm absolutely not clever enough. However. Does anyone else find that the tickets for this are crazily overpriced? Who the hell pays £60 to see Jim "playing himself again" Broadbent? I may be in the minority but I don't think he's any good...
There are plenty of seats cheaper than £60. I paid a quarter of that. I didn't love the show, as it happens, but I think one of the things the Bridge gets right is that there's a wide range of ticket prices for every performance, and the view from the cheap seats is quite reasonable. Some of them are absolute bargains.
There are plenty of legitimate criticisms to level at this show - further up this thread there's a link to a blog post that's basically 900 words of me trashing everything but the performances and the set. The ticket prices are not one of them.
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