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Post by bellboard27 on Oct 18, 2017 9:48:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 12:38:57 GMT
I think women need to stop treating men like the enemy. Some of us do experience it. And part of what makes all of us human is the ability to understand what other people go through. This isn't a men versus women thing. It's a people versus total bastard thing. Men get abused too. Women are abusers too. Yes, men abusing women is more common, but one fact that often gets ignored in discussions like this is that people don't get abused as a demographic. If you are abused you are abused as an individual, by an individual. If you are a man who has been abused your suffering isn't diluted by the fact that abuse of men is less common. If you are a woman you don't get automatic outrage points because women are abused more than men. We are all people, and this is a problem that affects us all. Anyone who splits the world into groups and decides their group's emotions are more valid than any other's is part of the problem. We're all on the same side. Or at least we should be. I really do hear what you're saying - but... “Hey BME people, stop talking about racism, we’re all people, nothing happens to you that doesn’t happen to other people, it just happens to you more”. I don’t think you’d say that because it’s transparently untrue. I’d love it if people were just people; that’s partly why I like gender and colour blind casting – in most cases, gender/colour are not particularly interesting parts of the character being played. But you can’t ignore the power structures we all live within and the fact that they were created and are owned by white men. That doesn’t mean that all white men are privileged per se, but it does mean that the structures privilege white men over others. The way men and women experience the world is not the same. My experience of work, walking the streets, using public transport, going on holiday, etc, is different from yours. You are freer than me in the society in which we live by virtue of your maleness. I don’t think I’m racist but I’m privileged by being white and I don’t do much (if anything) to try to change that structural inequality. If BME people are angry at me as a representative of ‘whiteness’, I don’t like it but I understand. |
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Post by harrie on Oct 18, 2017 13:49:59 GMT
I agree with all that’s been said, but although no one can deny that women are without a doubt the main victims of sexual abuse, we shouldn’t ignore the fact that some men are victims too, and when they do speak out about it are usually told to ‘man up’ or to take it as some kind of complement. Male victims should be encouraged to talk about their experiences just as much as female sufferers.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 14:09:50 GMT
This is a very emotive subject I think, and rightly so. And it certainly isn't going to go away any time soon. However, (and I do completely get that this simplifies something that isn't simple somewhat) but I do believe that at the very heart of it all, nothing will ever be perfect but society in general would be better if everyone was just a little bit kinder to each other.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 14:16:12 GMT
This is a very emotive subject I think, and rightly so. And it certainly isn't going to go away any time soon. However, (and I do completely get that this simplifies something that isn't simple somewhat) but I do believe that at the very heart of it all, nothing will ever be perfect but society in general would be better if everyone was just a little bit kinder to each other. Exactly that Ryan. I may be a raging Feminist but I also just want everyone to be a bit bloody nicer to each other. A great deal of problems would indeed be solved by the approach of 'Don't be a dick' and equally 'Just be a bit kinder'. Rightly so, these things are far more complex. But if we're talking of each doing our part, well kindness to others ain't a bad place to start. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 14:33:53 GMT
The way men and women experience the world is not the same. My experience of work, walking the streets, using public transport, going on holiday, etc, is different from yours. You are freer than me in the society in which we live by virtue of your maleness. I almost totally agree with that statement, but with a few caveats: first, the one harrie mentions above, that society's response to male distress is automatically "man up," - and that causes damage that nobody much has quantified beyond male suicide statistics. Second, until recent strident demands for "female equality" (also right), women were somewhat insulated from excesses. Men standing for women on public transport, moderating their language and behaviour around them etc were once social norms. Yes, they hid a multitude of nastiness that is now seeping out, but what I'm getting at is that some of the most vocal advocates of "women's rights" did one heck of a lot of damage to the wider female experience of life. It isn't men alone who shape the female world - yes, it's very true that men do, but it isn't quite the entire story, and that's very sad. Bless you Mr Monkey! I don't want men to stand on public transport for me - being female is not a condition that gives you wobbly ankles. I want to be able to get the train without a man ejaculating on my coat (actually happened to a colleague of mine). I'm not weak and feeble and I don't need to be protected from bad language (I bet mine is worse than yours anyway). I want to be treated like a human being - as Matthew said, like we're all just people. |
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1,504 posts
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Post by foxa on Oct 18, 2017 15:13:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 15:49:55 GMT
being female is not a condition that gives you wobbly ankles Indeed. But when a man sees a woman struggling to keep her balance on the tube, it used to be that a seat would be instantly offered. That's gone. Partly manners, partly scared of lashback. I guess it's because I'm old enough to remember when things just were different. People were not scared to take care of each other - but they WERE scared of public scorn for inappropriate behaviour. It was called out and everybody around backed it up. Men did set the rules on one level, but women also held their own line too, and each brought something useful. The result was "a people" I think. "Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women and the Rise of Raunch Culture" by Ariel Levy is an outstanding read, explaining an awful lot about where things went wrong, from an outstandingly perceptive perspective. Agreed, treating people kindly isn't a bad idea (but aw, do I HAVE to with BB? He's a bear anyway). We all know you're one of the nice ones, TM - don't try to hide it! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 16:29:25 GMT
This is a very emotive subject I think, and rightly so. And it certainly isn't going to go away any time soon. However, (and I do completely get that this simplifies something that isn't simple somewhat) but I do believe that at the very heart of it all, nothing will ever be perfect but society in general would be better if everyone was just a little bit kinder to each other. Exactly that Ryan. I may be a raging Feminist but I also just want everyone to be a bit bloody nicer to each other. A great deal of problems would indeed be solved by the approach of 'Don't be a dick' and equally 'Just be a bit kinder'. While I agree with that, the point I was trying to make yesterday is that treating people as a group can sometimes be very much a matter of being a dick. Not all that long ago I encountered a situation where a man who had been raped was told by a woman that no man could possibly understand the anxiety she felt around men. It wasn't as vile as it sounds because she didn't know that he'd been abused, but it makes the point that the audience for everything we say is made up of individuals and we need to make sure we're not dicks to those individuals. None of us know all the people who post on the forum and we certainly don't know the lurkers, and to me "be a bit kinder" includes considering the effect of what I'm saying on the non-median members of the audience. We do all need to be kinder, but let's not forget that some quite nasty things have been said about men in this forum and when men have been upset about it their comments have been brushed aside with things like the #NotAllMen stupidity. That's not being kind. That's being a dick of Trumpian magnitude. It's absolutely right that men should take women's complaints seriously, but women need to take men's complaints seriously as well. |
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Post by kathryn on Oct 18, 2017 16:38:46 GMT
Monkey I think you may be wearing rose-tinted glasses, judging by what my mum recalls about her time working in London from the late 60s to late 70s. And even earlier than that, judging by the very amusingly aghast articles I've seen about what use women put their massive hat pins do when bothered by men on public transport.
They weren't aghast about the women being bothered, by the way, but by the prospect of being stabbed for doing the bothering.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 16:38:50 GMT
The thing is though Matthew it isn't a mutually exclusive situation. And taking women seriously doesn't mean not taking Men seriously. But the simple maths of the matter I'm afraid is that more women find themselves in these situations than men. I've actually seen some lovely things on my social media from men (mostly gay men in this instance) sharing similar experience of sexual harassment and abuse that stem from the same places as that which women receive. It's all about patriarchal society's expectations of the 'man up' mentality or 'real men' and it indeed all stems from the same sordid place. And women have supported that/these men.
I also think you're very much misunderstanding what #notallmen is used to mean, because you are doing exactly that. Trying to brush aside these very real instances with the idea that not all men do that, and that in calling out men on that means somehow women are 'picking' on men.
We aren't picking on men. We're simply trying to create a world where we don't have to fear a job only comes at the price of a sexual favour. Or that we will be believed when we say someone assaulted us.
None of us want men who suffer the same abuse to be silenced or brushed aside because we've bloody well lived being silenced and brushed aside. Women are not the enemy either and I for one don't appreciate being made out to be one simply for lending my voice to this cause. Because this cause isn't trying to put down men it's trying to get on with our lives in peace.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 17:15:28 GMT
That's sort of like when people complain about rising divorce rates though, overlooking that it doesn't just mean "more marriages are failing than ever before". We were more peaceful Back In The Day because we'd been conditioned to Not Make A Fuss, not because we were necessarily any less likely to be the recipients of unwanted attention. I'm not sorry that things feel less peaceful now, as I've watched young women become much more aware of and willing to speak up when things just aren't right. I wish I'd had that strength and support when I was younger, or at the very least I wish my parents hadn't brought me up to be polite to strangers, but I'm glad things have swayed that way now. Long overdue!
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1,504 posts
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Post by foxa on Oct 18, 2017 17:43:17 GMT
I think it can be exhausting not knowing the rules. The train example, TM gave earlier is interesting. Anecdotally, I see women giving up seats to other women (say, pregnant women) most commonly. Some men, I think, fear being snapped at if they offer. Some think women have too much anyway so if they want equal rights then they can stand. And some folks are just too busy looking at their phones. And I think all the not knowing what to do and how it will be received is tiring for everyone (but, optimistically, maybe a necessary stage.) It's that trying to figure out who needs/wants help and offering it rather than a clear - ah, it's a woman, ah it's an old person - rule. I offered a seat to man much older than me who seemed tired and he took it, but looked a bit depressed so I wasn't sure I'd really helped.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 18:01:27 GMT
The thing is though Matthew it isn't a mutually exclusive situation. And taking women seriously doesn't mean not taking Men seriously. But the simple maths of the matter I'm afraid is that more women find themselves in these situations than men. Yes. I know that. I keep saying that. What I'm trying to get across is that the fact that (many) more women than men find themselves in those situations does not invalidate the experiences of men as individuals. I keep saying that I've found some of the things that women have said distressing, and the response I get is always "ah, but more women suffer than men". How is that taking the feelings of men seriously? I don't use Twitter so perhaps it has a wider use than the one I know because I've only encountered it here, but when it's used here it is always used sarcastically to dismiss a man's opinion as being unworthy of being heard. The pattern is: Someone makes a stupid generalisation in which they tell men what men think. Several men point out that this isn't what men think at all. The original poster snidely responds with "Sorry, I forgot to add #notallmen", implying that they're going to disregard what actual men say in favour of the generalisation. It's used in an extremely contemptuous and dismissive way. On this forum I don't remember it being used any other way. I'm not trying to brush aside the experiences of women, and if that's the impression I'm giving then it's certainly not intentional. I don't think that the women here are intentionally picking on men. But when I say that I've found some of the comments here deeply hurtful I'm not saying it "just for funsies", to use a phrase from earlier in the discussion. The distress is real. But all I get back is comments about how women are affected more than men, as if I'm trying to steal distress from women and you have to claim it back for your exclusive use. But don't you see that when you resort to saying things like "the simple maths of the matter..." you are brushing aside men who have suffered the same? The fact that more women suffer doesn't mean that women suffer more, and from the male side this attitude does come across as dismissive. |
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Post by Phantom of London on Oct 18, 2017 18:09:19 GMT
Heard on the radio (LBC) this morning that in today's Daily Fail a WOMAN 'jornalist' reported, that woman make these things up, just so they can get on television for Woman's Hour.
Come on I am shocked that these Jurassic attitudes still exist and more surprised it was a lady writer to publish this, perhaps this lady wrote this article whilst wringing out laundry on the mangle!!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 18:11:40 GMT
Heard on the radio (LBC) this morning that in today's Daily Fail a WOMAN 'jornalist' reported, that woman make these things up, just so they can get on television for Woman's Hour. It's the Daily Mail. They make everything up. Can you blame them for assuming everyone else does too? (Yes. Yes, you can.) |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 18:13:24 GMT
Ok firstly, google is your friend. So here is some information on what 'Not All Men' means in a wider context. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NotAllMenAnd I think to be honest this is your current problem-you don't seem to be coming from a very wide perspective, indeed you seem very much to be limiting it to this board. Whereas the rest of us are having a much broader conversation. If you have had negative encounters with women hear, I'm sorry to hear it, but I suggest you raise that with your fellow moderators if it crosses a line, or with the women involved when it happens. Because that is not the wider issue, that seems in fact to be a personal issue between you and some comments made. That's not to disreard it but that is not the issue at hand. I can't keep saying it in different ways so I'm saying it once more: Women wanting their sexual assault to be recognized does not invalidate the experience of men. To borrow from a friend on this: Yes we recongise that men can be sexually assaulted but can we please have one conversation where men do not make it about them. That concern is a sincere one, but only when it is raised as it's own thing and not as a counter argument to women asking to be recongised and listened to. |
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Post by foxa on Oct 18, 2017 18:19:23 GMT
I typed a reply and then deleted it. I feel sure if we were sitting in the same room, Matthew, we could make sense of this, but I don't think it's going to happen here - and I certainly don't want to be called a dick of Trumpian magnitude if I try.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 18:40:52 GMT
I typed a reply and then deleted it. I feel sure if we were sitting in the same room, Matthew, we could make sense of this, but I don't think it's going to happen here - and I certainly don't want to be called a dick of Trumpian magnitude if I try. I'm sure it would be far easier in the same room. One of the problems with public discussions is that everything's on record and you can't take anything back. That rather strangles people's ability to say what they're really feeling. It reminds me of a debate on abortion we had at school once, where everyone calmly presented their intellectual arguments and then someone wiped out every other opinion in the room by quietly telling us all how she'd felt about discovering her parents had planned to abort her. That level of openness made possible in a closed environment gave us all an appreciation of just how complicated an issue it was and reset everyone's opinions at a stroke. Personal experience can focus the attention magnificently. |
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Post by Dawnstar on Oct 18, 2017 19:16:52 GMT
I don't use Twitter so perhaps it has a wider use than the one I know because I've only encountered it here, but when it's used here it is always used sarcastically to dismiss a man's opinion as being unworthy of being heard. The pattern is: Someone makes a stupid generalisation in which they tell men what men think. Several men point out that this isn't what men think at all. The original poster snidely responds with "Sorry, I forgot to add #notallmen", implying that they're going to disregard what actual men say in favour of the generalisation. It's used in an extremely contemptuous and dismissive way. On this forum I don't remember it being used any other way. I haven't seen this #notallmen hashtag specifically but I do think there seems to be a strong tendency on the part of some women in today's society to patronize & belittle men. I don't know if this is considered to be a feminist revenge for centuries of patriarchy or what. Surely if we as a society are supposed to be aiming for sexual equality then that means neither gender should make sweeping negative generalisations about the other gender. The thing that surprises me most about the Weinstein case is that every article on it seems to say that all women experience sexual harrassment/assault. I'm currently feeling like I'm the only woman on the planet who has never been sexually harassed (unless you count being wolf-whistled at by a builder when I was 17, which I don't think really counts) let alone assaulted. I can only think that being plain & liking to dress in a fairly covered-up way, due to my OCD, has the advantage that men aren't interested in harrassing me. |
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Post by kathryn on Oct 18, 2017 19:26:36 GMT
No, it just means you've been lucky. Doesn't matter how you dress - women in burkas get assaulted/harassed. It's not really about sexual attraction, it's about power - or at least, it's the power that turns them on, not your physical appearance. Some of the time it's reallyabout showing off in front of other men and just being a plain old bully. .
I haven't been harassed at work, but then I work in a very female-dominated industry. Things like that are more likely to make a difference than what you wear.
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Post by Dawnstar on Oct 18, 2017 19:42:45 GMT
I haven't been harassed at work, but then I work in a very female-dominated industry. Things like that are more likely to make a difference than what you wear. The company I've temped for for 10 years has about an even gender balance, I'd say. I've never felt that my gender has caused any sort of bias at work & I've never heard any rumours of anyone else having problems with sexual harrassment or suchlike, so I guess I'm fortunate it's a decent company from that point of view. |
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Post by kathryn on Oct 18, 2017 20:02:27 GMT
It's a lot to do with the culture. Any culture where individuals can accumulate a lot of power and influence with little oversight or accountability is ripe for abuse.
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Post by lynette on Oct 18, 2017 20:42:23 GMT
Had lunch with three pals today and each of had a tale to tell of sexual misbehaviour at work. And three of us are well retired. Plus ca change, eh?
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Post by n1david on Oct 20, 2017 17:04:41 GMT
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