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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 9:46:43 GMT
1)I would not be happy if one of my male colleagues touched my knee. We all have quite senior positions where we work and I cannot imagine any scenario where touching my knee would be justified. Coming from one of the men I work with ( who are often patronising) it would make me very uncomfortable. Likewise, I would not touch their knees. 2)My colleagues all laughed at me when I told them that i don’t Hug or touch most of the people I work with and am always careful about what and how I say things to colleagues. They all thought I was being unduly cautious. My feeling is that I have plenty of friends and family outside the work context to hug and kiss and that I don’t mind if I come across as a bit of a cold fish at work - which I sometimes do. I was always taught that even if someone is upset you ask them first if they want a hug - some people can’t bear to be touched and you never know the traumas of someone else’s past. 3) about a year after I expressed my views a colleague was accused of sexual assault when she tried to comfort a woman at work who was upset. The woman said she had held on for too long and called the police. Another colleague was suspended on the spot for playfully (as they saw it) kissing someone on the cheek. I couldn’t help feeling a bit smug because I had been warning everyone about this sort of thing for years and they’d all made fun of me.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 3, 2017 10:03:10 GMT
1)I would not be happy if one of my male colleagues touched my knee. We all have quite senior positions where we work and I cannot imagine any scenario where touching my knee would be justified. Coming from one of the men I work with ( who are often patronising) it would make me very uncomfortable. Likewise, I would not touch their knees. 2)My colleagues all laughed at me when I told them that i don’t Hug or touch most of the people I work with and am always careful about what and how I say things to colleagues. They all thought I was being unduly cautious. My feeling is that I have plenty of friends and family outside the work context to hug and kiss and that I don’t mind if I come across as a bit of a cold fish at work - which I sometimes do. I was always taught that even if someone is upset you ask them first if they want a hug - some people can’t bear to be touched and you never know the traumas of someone else’s past. 3) about a year after I expressed my views a colleague was accused of sexual assault when she tried to comfort a woman at work who was upset. The woman said she had held on for too long and called the police. Another colleague was suspended on the spot for playfully (as they saw it) kissing someone on the cheek. I couldn’t help feeling a bit smug because I had been warning everyone about this sort of thing for years and they’d all made fun of me. Totally agree with this. Work is work, there is no need to touch, hug, kiss or anything like it even if someone is upset. The fella I’m seeing at the moment works for a large UK bank and was telling me this week about a woman at work who he has a very playful relationship with. She grabs his arse (which I must admit is magnificent so I can see why she would be tempted) and in return he pokes her boob and makes that “buzzer” noise  . I suggested very strongly that he should pack that in, pronto. He was bemused. On the other hand my best pal started a new job in Paris this week. It’s in a government department with French, Spanish, Italian and other nationalities. Their attitude to what’s going on ranges from genuine puzzlement to finding it hysterically funny. |
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Post by harrie on Nov 3, 2017 10:24:11 GMT
Gosh this is making me realise how lucky I’ve been to work with people I consider friends. Whenever I’ve been upset at work I’ve always been glad that someone has been there to give a hug (although I completely understand that some people wouldn’t want to be touched)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 10:48:44 GMT
Re: work it varies considerably dependent on the environment and relationships. And that's where the arts falls into a grey area and falls down as well. I think nothing of, when I meet fellow 'Theatre types' hugging as a greeting, cheek kisses and generally when working quite 'tactile' (I'm actually thinking about this week when falling about laughing at something, and sitting in proximity I ended up with a hand on a knee of a 'colleague' wouldn't happen in my 'day jobs' so much but in that context it was fine). And that's fine when everyone's on board- but that's also where that world falls down. And obviously it gets harder to 'police' in the case of actors, who obviously have to touch each other a lot...it's all a bit murky.
But equally it's rare I've got to 'hugging' levels of intimacy with colleagues in other workplaces. Some I have because they've become genuine friends, and I've had a couple of instances of being upset and work and someone saying 'Do you want a hug' all that is fine with me- I've also worked in fairly female-dominated teams, so that's also a factor.
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Post by Dave25 on Nov 3, 2017 10:49:31 GMT
Hefner, there were a few articles that talked about him negatively, and indeed there have been several former 'Bunnies' over the years who have written 'tell all' books etc that cast him in an unfavourable light. I think this totally depends on if the girls in question got their way. If Hefner gave them what they wanted, he was a fantastic man, and if he didn't, they tried to organise a witch-hunt. People try to use eachother for all kinds of things, that's the game of life. I think there is a huge grey area in this. It's not always so black and white. I also think "being intimidated" is relative. It's not measurable and it differs for everyone. One person is intimidated by a wink eye and another person loves it. "would you like to have sex with me in my hotelroom now", is intimidating to some, to others it is not. To me, what it is, is just a naughty man, being honest about his desires. If it goes further, and someone touches my bum, I either like it or I don't. When I don't, I say, I don't like that, or give him the evil eye, and I move on and forget about it in 10 seconds. Either way, that person is the one to speak to in that moment. If that person happens to be someone that you want something else from, you can decide for yourself how far you are willing to go. If that person thinks of you as only sexual, or you feel like he does not appreciate your immense talent and how special you are, then what's the point in still wanting to get involved with this person. There is a difference between being intimidated and being offended by someone only liking you for sex. You can desire or demand that everyone likes you for more, but it's a fact that some people only like you for that. Also in the stories of other people "I went to his hotelroom 4 times and each time he asked me to have sex. I said yes, but only because I was drunk", there is a big grey area. There are always solutions, you can always walk away, hell, you can even say in that hotelroom "now, here's the rules, I am not going to have sex with you. I will keep this between us if everything we discussed before stays the same. Do we have a deal?". Or you just keep flirting back and go as far as you are comfortable with. I personally would never be intimidated by anyone expressing his desires to me, no matter where or what. Now, if I was literally promised to get something in return for sex, and I did it, and then the person breaks that promise, that would make me mad. Because I am a man of my word. But still, that's being offended, not intimidated. |
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Post by vdcni on Nov 3, 2017 11:15:48 GMT
What a warped view of life you have.
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Post by Dave25 on Nov 3, 2017 11:20:54 GMT
Maybe, but I don't think the opposite is making people exactly happy.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 11:23:27 GMT
What a warped view of life you have. Indeed he does. And there's a line between having differing views on grey areas and coming dangerously close to excusing rape and sexual assault. |
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Post by Dave25 on Nov 3, 2017 11:45:18 GMT
I'm not excusing anything. Rape is wrong, period, but I'm talking about intimidation here. Like people are intimidated by their boyfriend's phone beeping, their FB likes, because the whole big scary world is intimidating. Like being intimidated by people in general letting them know they want to have sex with them. Like people trying to take down the "top model tv shows" because it "gives off the message that everything is about looks while in fact every person is equal" well guess what, not everyone is equal, some people can be models, others can not. Like people hyperventilating about male and female signs on public toilets because it intimidates them because some people can feel gender neutral. A big part of my reaction comes from the fact that we live in a society where everyone is becoming extremely insecure about themselves, immediately dive into the victim role in about any situation, are offended and intimidated by everything, and are basically unable to handle any situation at all anymore. Since when did we become such whimpies? Because it really seems to be something of the new generation. I saw an interview on tv yesterday with a 70 year old lady who said: Back in the day I was walking across a train station and 3 guys were jerking off towards me. It made me laugh, I waved to them and smiled and said, have fun boys! Then I proceeded to buying potatoes and cauliflower, the more important things of my day. This was a very happy and strong beautiful woman, who just made a choice to rise above the victim role. If she even ever saw herself as such. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 11:56:20 GMT
The above post has managed to make so many insluting points I don't even know where to start...
1. Gender neutral toilets are there to allow trans people to safely use the toilet in peace. This is because in many places they are attacked for using the toilets. It's not about 'feeling gender neutral' it's about people getting attacked. And also an extra loo or a sign saying gender neutral really isn't affecting anyone else's life.
2. Women and men are not speaking out about sexual harassment and assault because they feel 'insecure' they're speaking out because it's wrong.
3. Top Model shows etc (personally I love Top Model, it's run by Tyra Banks an excellent feminist woman) is not about again 'insecurity' it's about wider misogyny in society.
4. People aren't 'diving into victim roles' if you're attacked or harassed you are a victim. That's nothing to be ashamed of.
5. You seem to think women can only be 'strong' if they are willing to laugh off unwanted advances by men. That's very disturbing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 12:00:23 GMT
Honestly, focusing ANY discussion onto how the recipients of unwanted behaviour react, or over-react, or should be reacting, or whatever, is to wilfully obfuscate the point that PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE HARASSING OTHER PEOPLE PERIOD. Whether I'd be bothered or not by a man ejaculating onto my coat doesn't override the fact that my sensitivity levels have nothing to do with whether or not the man should have his d*ck out in public. He shouldn't. Focusing the conversation on me is diverting away from the conversation we *should* be having about his bad behaviour. It does not matter how people feel about the bad behaviour, or the severity of the bad behaviour. PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE DOING THESE THINGS IN THE FIRST PLACE. How much clearer can we make it?
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 3, 2017 12:11:35 GMT
People shouldn't be harassing others - that is fine as long as there is a universally agreed definition of what constitutes harassment. And there we do enter a grey area.
There are many behaviours that are clearly harassment but there are others where it is less clear cut. Touching a knee can be completely innocent or could be an indication of something more threatening or intimidating.
It is why we have judicial systems to establish whether the line has been crossed.
We need a culture where complaints can be made without fear and where investigations are carried out swiftly and fairly - so that justice is done and can be seen to be done. I would also like it to be the case where people who are accused and subsequently found not guilty can continue their lives without a permanent stain on their reputation. Mud does stick - but we should try to find ways to stop it.
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Post by Dave25 on Nov 3, 2017 12:39:44 GMT
The above post has managed to make so many insluting points I don't even know where to start... 1. Gender neutral toilets are there to allow trans people to safely use the toilet in peace. This is because in many places they are attacked for using the toilets. It's not about 'feeling gender neutral' it's about people getting attacked. And also an extra loo or a sign saying gender neutral really isn't affecting anyone else's life. 2. Women and men are not speaking out about sexual harassment and assault because they feel 'insecure' they're speaking out because it's wrong. 3. Top Model shows etc (personally I love Top Model, it's run by Tyra Banks an excellent feminist woman) is not about again 'insecurity' it's about wider misogyny in society. 4. People aren't 'diving into victim roles' if you're attacked or harassed you are a victim. That's nothing to be ashamed of. 5. You seem to think women can only be 'strong' if they are willing to laugh off unwanted advances by men. That's very disturbing. 1. No, the discussion is very much about feeling discriminated too. 2. And often the way they handle the situation is wrong too. 3. No, people wanting to take down the show because of the reasons mentioned, it about feeling intimidated by the show being focused on looks. They obviously feel overshadowed, insecure, intimidated. These claims have nothing to do with misogyny. Maybe in your book everything does, but this does not. Also, the show has male contestants now. 4. I think they are. There are tons of other ways to handle the situation. 5. No, they are strong when they show they can handle a situation, but I'm only hearing "me too" and "I feel so intimidated". Strong women make the situation in that moment work how they want it. Life is not a drawing where you can use a pencil eraser to make everything disappear that intimidates you. Make choices in the moment that satisfy you. Do you really think that ALL men you will ever meet in your life will never be bastards? No matter how much we play morale soldiers? That will never happen, so you will always encounter them. So have fun being intimidated about everything for the rest of your life. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 12:42:50 GMT
Dude. Do not try and school me in Top Model. I have watched every season. And even some of the crappy spinoffs. Go sit in your corner.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 12:45:37 GMT
I will not enter into what verges on transphobic discussions about gender neutral toilets. The poster seems somehow offended that we try and include Trans people in our society which is vile and offensive. Moderators, I've reported him but I urge you to consider the things that poster is saying very seriously.
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Post by Dave25 on Nov 3, 2017 12:49:38 GMT
I will not enter into what verges on transphobic discussions about gender neutral toilets. The poster seems somehow offended that we try and include Trans people in our society which is vile and offensive. Moderators, I've reported him but I urge you to consider the things that poster is saying very seriously. I have trans friends and I love them and fight for them. The MTF friends identify as women. They are happy to use female toilets, that's who they are. One is FTM, and feels, looks and acts like a man, uses the men's room. None of them has had any problems. All are against gender neutral toilets, none of them feels gender neutral. None of them wants to put public focus on that by walking into a 3rd multi gender toilet. And STOP whining and reporting whenever you see a post that you can't handle/feel intimidated about and run for your pencil eraser to make everything disappear that does not suit you. That is not how life works. Your attitude is the core of the problem of this discussion and my point. Again, rape and assault is disgusting and wrong, this discussion is not about that. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 12:56:29 GMT
And STOP whining and reporting whenever you see a post that you can't handle/feel intimidated about and run for your pencil eraser to make everything disappear that does not suit you. My dear, I can assure you the last thing I am intimidated by is a man with a keyboard and an inflated sense of self. If I was I'd never go on the internet. |
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Post by theatremadness on Nov 3, 2017 12:56:30 GMT
Dave25, are you being sponsored by the word 'intimidated'? Or are you on a dare with a friend to use it as much as is humanely possible? Or have you just found this word and you're now showing off to everyone that you know how to use it? (Which, by the way, you don't).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 12:59:35 GMT
Dave25 , are you being sponsored by the word 'intimidated'? Or are you on a dare with a friend to use it as much as is humanely possible? Or have you just found this word and you're now showing off to everyone that you know how to use it? (Which, by the way, you don't). We should give him some synonyms! Browbeaten, daunted, afraid, bullied, cowed.... Any more for any more? we could start a game... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 13:02:10 GMT
This discussion has reached a point where I'm afraid to contribute to it because it's degenerated into a toxic environment where people seem to be trying to score points by looking for the worst possible interpretation of everything.
Can we please assume that everyone agrees with the following:
1) Rape, harassment and the use of authority to coerce people is wrong.
2) All of us are basically decent human beings.
3) All of us are trying to be reasonable.
If you're hammering out a furious reply to someone on the assumption that one or more of those points doesn't apply to them then it might be better to wait a while until you cool off. The point of discussion is to try to understand each other's point of view, not to scream at everyone else until they give up.
The weather's nice outside and it's going to be crap tomorrow morning so get out and enjoy it.
(Edited to add)
As there seems to have been some confusion, I will point out that I started writing this post when the discussion was on the previous page and nothing should be inferred from the position it occupied after I posted it.
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Post by Dave25 on Nov 3, 2017 13:02:11 GMT
And STOP whining and reporting whenever you see a post that you can't handle/feel intimidated about and run for your pencil eraser to make everything disappear that does not suit you. My dear, I can assure you the last thing I am intimidated by is a man with a keyboard and an inflated sense of self. If I was I'd never go on the internet. I truly hope so for you. And it's not only about internet, but also life in general. But I think you come across as extremely intimidated by everything. Also, I have not, and will never report anyone. Discussion is life. Erasing/reporting is being numb/choosing the victim role/running away. |
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Post by vdcni on Nov 3, 2017 13:03:28 GMT
I will not enter into what verges on transphobic discussions about gender neutral toilets. The poster seems somehow offended that we try and include Trans people in our society which is vile and offensive. Moderators, I've reported him but I urge you to consider the things that poster is saying very seriously. I have trans friends and I love them, embrace them and fight for them. The MTF friends identify as women. They are happy to use female toilets, that's who they are. One is FTM, feel, looks and acts like a man, uses the men's room. Al are against gender neutral toilets, none of them feels gender neutral. And STOP whining and reporting whenever you see a post that you can't handle/feel intimidated about and run for your pencil eraser to make everything disappear that does not suit you. That is not how life works. Your attitude is the core of the problem of this discussion and my point. Again, rape and assault is disgusting and wrong, this discussion is not about that. No your attitude is the core of the problem in our society. What's the point of saying rape and assault is wrong but then turn around and say - but actually the victims don't handle things correctly, if the victims reacted another way then this wouldn't happen anyway. You remind me of all those American politicians who always send their prayers when people are killed in a gun massacre and then go back to accepting money from the gun lobby and making it even easier for people to buy guns. For lots of reasons people aren't always going to handle things in the same way and when you're being harassed by someone in a position of power over you or if you are not fully an adult then its very easy to say do this but not so easy in practice. And even if you can handle them and brush it off quite easily it's still best to report it because who knows what will happen to the next person who has to suffer it. I was changing trains the other day and needed the loo so went in and while at the urinal someone went into the cubical behind me. When I was leaving I noticed the door was open and there was a woman sitting on the toilet in a state of undress who looked to be masturbating. I was in a hurry as my train was arriving and slightly stunned by what I'd seen so just left and got on my train. Other than the initial shock it didn't bother me but I'm still kicking myself that I didn't stop and tell one of the station staff as who knows who might have gone in there next - perhaps a young boy who wouldn't have known how to handle the situation. Your lack of empathy or understanding of other peoples situations is quite breathtaking. |
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. I suggested very strongly that he should pack that in, pronto. He was bemused. 
