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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 7:50:42 GMT
Ah, okay. Thank you clarifying. I'm glad we're using white supremacy as a benchmark. That escalated quickly. |
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Post by alece10 on Aug 28, 2017 7:51:27 GMT
I find it hard to keep up with what the latest acceptable term is as its always changing and there is always the fear of saying the wrong thing. When I was young Queer was truly offensive but now it seems to be a perfectly acceptable term to use. I think its a term that younger gays seem to use rather than the older generation who don't see it as a "good" word. And does the + added to the end of LGBT now mean "and anyone else" as that seems to change on a weekly basis. I also often hear elderly people say coloured and they have no idea at all that its no longer acceptable and you should say black. Its not their fault and they mean no offence by it. I much prefer the word "special" to Gay. Which is what we are  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 8:08:20 GMT
*Gay historian hat on* As others above have said 'Queer' has been used by the community for about 30 years. Certainly many campaign groups during the early days of AIDS used it as equally as 'gay' slogans like 'We're here we're Queer' are prominent in Gay Pride marches around then and even before. I'd venture at that time it was more an Americanism, but that was 30 years ago and it's certainly filtered down. From where I'm sat at my desk I can see my 'big gay bookshelf' of books on gay history/AIDS crisis etc etc and there's at LEAST 4 with 'Queer' in the title somewhere, and probably half of them use Queer as a descriptor for members of the LGBTQA 'community'.
So in a 'history lesson' sense various groups have been using it for decades. More reccently individuals who don't feel they fit neatly into any of the traditional boxes prefer it. For example a trans woman who is also a lesbian, might feel saying 'I'm a trans woman but also a lesbian' a bit of a mouthful, AND also not want to specifically discuss gender or sexuality every time so just opts for 'Queer'.
*Member of LGBTQA hat on*
I don't personally use 'Queer' very often, but actually it's quite a nice catch-all term. I can definatly see the power in reclaiming it as a term, and it's handy for those who can't quite find another label or don't like the other labels. Nobody has every pressured me to call myself Queer.
I respect people who have only ever heard it as an insult not wishing to reclaim it, and use it themselves. But I think as with any self-descriptive term I don't think it's anyone's place to tell people they can't use it on themselves.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 28, 2017 8:08:26 GMT
BurlyBear, I understand you were trying to have a conversation, but obtusely saying if gays can reclaim the word queer, then can I say the N word is an asshole and purposely inflammatory thing to say. In fact, I would like to say that you WANT to say the N word and clearly take it lightly, because this wouldn't have crossed your mind otherwise. You know better. Stop being ignorant. I wouldn't dream of calling anyone the N word. You know what the point of the question was I'm sure. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 28, 2017 8:31:17 GMT
We all know this conversation would've been shut down by now if a certain admin didn't want the attention. He can say what he likes but we can't. As the certain admin in question it's my job to generate discussion. However I take that accusation seriously, and if people think this thread should be removed then I'll do it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 8:37:10 GMT
I think it's a reasonable discussion. I saw a young friend raise the same point on twitter a few weeks ago. It's the general chat board so anything goes and I don't see any issue with your responses personally BurlyBeaRTo go back to another point you made- I was really annoyed at Cardiff Pride for being 'The Big Weekend' (which was something we used to have years and years ago unconnected to Pride just free concerts on Bank Holiday weekend) so the lines were very much blurred between 'people celebrating Pride' and 'People here to see Charlotte Chruch's Band' not to say you can't be both, and certainly not to say 'no straight people at Pride' but it felt very much like a 'dulling down' of the actual Pride elemet to get more people in their field for their largely sh*te concerts (Charlotte Church aside, who I have to say was very good but that's not the point) And in that I had two very slimy men loitering near me and a friend informing us 'we're not gay like'....I could go out any weekend in Cardiff if I wanted that ta. |
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Post by bellboard27 on Aug 28, 2017 8:52:38 GMT
Here is an example of navigating the acceptability of language. Several years ago I married and gained a step-son who came to the UK from Asia as a teenager with very little English. He learnt quickly. His best friend at school was black. At the time the phrase “what’s up N” was quite often heard in film and music. He and his friend used it all the time to each other (as did his classmates of all races). He even started using it with me. When I explained to him that if he went up to a black person on the street and greeted them with that phrase, he might have an unexpected reaction, he was very confused. That a word was openly used by a group, but was offended by others using the same word took a bit of persuading. Once he understood, he was fine, but I’m sure the language within his own school community did not change.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 28, 2017 9:09:44 GMT
I wish I'd never brought the N word into it now and I'm sorry if anyone was offended by that. But when people start talking about reclaiming words it's quite hard to overlook it.
But sticking with queer, I know it's been used for years in a political context but it's definitely becoming more widely used now. If that's because it's a convenient catch all term them I'm disappointed that an equally convenient catch all term can't be found. We have no shortage of words in our language. That particular word has a nasty connotation and was originally used to hurt and marginalise people. Reclaiming it and normalising it doesn't wipe that away.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 9:15:19 GMT
I had to stop going to my feminist book group because they kept referring to intersectionality and I didn't know what they were talking about... Sometimes you get past an age where you can keep up any more.
(I also stopped because you're not allowed to be a feminist and not hate Israel now, apparently, but that's another can of worms)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 9:30:49 GMT
I wish I'd never brought the N word into it now and I'm sorry if anyone was offended by that. But when people start talking about reclaiming words it's quite hard to overlook it. But sticking with queer, I know it's been used for years in a political context but it's definitely becoming more widely used now. If that's because it's a convenient catch all term them I'm disappointed that an equally convenient catch all term can't be found. We have no shortage of words in our language. That particular word has a nasty connotation and was originally used to hurt and marginalise people. Reclaiming it and normalising it doesn't wipe that away. I do see where you're coming from but it's only re-claiming if it is being used in the opposite way to previously, so I guess the community either has a 'reclaimed' word or they invent a new word. With the invent a new word you then get backlash for the 'all these new words we can't keep up it's juse nonsense' So I guess it's lose-lose in that some people are going to be annoyed either way? Personally I get annoyed at labels for labels sake, and the forcing them onto people. It's fine if you as a person want 15 labels to describe gender and sexuality but it's also fine if people don't. Sadly some community members don't see that. |
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Post by hulmeman on Aug 28, 2017 9:48:37 GMT
Well, what is the world to call us, if we can't agree what we want to be called? I use the wider "we", because this board is clearly a cross section of people.
Earlier in this conversation cmonfeet asked "Is there hate in their hearts when they say it?" That for me cuts to the heart of the matter. Call me a queer one way and I'll laugh, call me a queer in another way and I'll take your face off. Same with the word "gay".
As people who appreciate theatre and therefore I'm sure words, we know the power of interpreting words. How many plays have we seen where our perception has been changed because of the way words are used. There are hundreds of interpretations of the simple line from Lady Bracknell in "....Earnest" for example. "A handbag" are the words, how they are vocalised is the meaning.
There is of course a perfectly good word in the lexicon for one who is attracted the same sex - it is homosexual.
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Aug 28, 2017 9:58:38 GMT
I use queer. Queer has been widely used by the LGBT community for as long as I've been alive. I completely understand people used to hearing it as a slur finding it offensive, but some LGBT and especially LGBT youth have never known it as a slur. (I also stopped because you're not allowed to be a feminist and not hate Israel now, apparently, but that's another can of worms) Yes, I agree with this. The "social justice" movement is problematic in all kinds of ways, and can be very discriminatory. At the moment there are white supremacists groups actively targeting social justice youth intentionally to spread anti-Semitic propaganda, which is horrifying. Recently a Muslim Indian teenage girl became a white supremacist poster child which is a sentence I can't believe I've just written. On a broader note: racial politics are so contentious. Sometimes watching the news feels like you're living on a knife edge. Perhaps it would be more conducive to calm debate not to bring in black people or the N word unnecessarily. |
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Post by alece10 on Aug 28, 2017 10:01:21 GMT
We all know this conversation would've been shut down by now if a certain admin didn't want the attention. He can say what he likes but we can't. As the certain admin in question it's my job to generate discussion. However I take that accusation seriously, and if people think this thread should be removed then I'll do it. No don't delete. I love a good old barny. Sorry I mean discussion. Besides makes a change from discussing your favourite male dancer on 42nd Street. Oh and in answer to that.... I'd not say no to any of them. |
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Post by andrew on Aug 28, 2017 10:07:10 GMT
I didn't like it when it first started gaining mainstream ground 4 or 5 years ago but now I've stopped caring,. Language is shaped by use, if you don't like it then don't use it and hope that people will follow.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 10:58:42 GMT
Good god, you go to sleep, wake up, and this whole conversation has started.
I'm with Andrew. If you don't like it, don't use it. And if it offends you or upsets you, tell said person or people it upsets you. It's a case by case situation, where some like it, some don't. It's just how it is.
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Post by lynette on Aug 28, 2017 11:43:57 GMT
I come from a place of total ignorance but I do try not to be offensive so I was a little puzzled when I saw the word 'queer' as a trail for a season of drama etc. I thought this word was well out of order. 'Yid' is unacceptable mostly because it is shouted in anti Semitic rallies. We've seen n word reclaimed by one or two people on social media as a stunt I think.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 12:01:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 12:05:33 GMT
The N-Word is used in Rap and certainly is used a lot in culture and is part of the vocabulary of a lot of young black people. This may have come about due to the Rap Culture also. But it was used as a term of affection between two black characters in Fences by August Wilson which was written in 1983 but set in 1957.
I find it both funny and offensive when I hear white guys talking in a fake Jamaican accent using it and pretending to be black. Also people who are mixed race or even quarter black using it as if they are on the streets oF New York.
I've often had black people refer to me as "Blood" although I am White which I find confusing and I could see someone respond "Yo Nigga" back as a return of affection.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 12:06:35 GMT
Personally I think it's a question of progress. Back in the mid 60s when I was becoming aware of different terms used for homosexuals, queer seemed to be one of the less evil ones. Terms like pouf,queen, pansy and nancy boy all seemed so much more derogatory. Fotunately most of these terms seem to have gone the same way as the n word at least when being polically correct. Gay as such seems to indicate the "light" side of things whereas queer has a deeper stronger connotation veering towards different. I feel nowadays that I can identify with queer or gay and proud but would have no pride in being a proud pouf or a proud pansy.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 28, 2017 12:22:14 GMT
Ouch. Not THAT old thank you!  In that last article its suggested that we must use the word Queer because it unites us. I don't see any evidence of that in this discussion. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 12:33:30 GMT
Was there a Queerfest run somewhere along the lines of the numerous Gay Prides - that term "Queerfest" seems to ring a bell but in a positive LGBT type event.
Things have certainly changed for the best Gay activities were only formally legalised 50 years ago and at about the same time there was lots of racism in major countries like the UK and US etc.
I always failed to grasp how nations who stood up to Hitler's supremacist ideology could still have people being so openly prejudiced against different skin colours well over 20 years after end of 2nd World War.
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Post by Jan on Aug 28, 2017 13:38:18 GMT
We all know this conversation would've been shut down by now if a certain admin didn't want the attention. He can say what he likes but we can't. As the certain admin in question it's my job to generate discussion. However I take that accusation seriously, and if people think this thread should be removed then I'll do it. Odd that it is often those who self-identify as social liberals who want things banned (certain newspapers for example) and opinions contrary to their own censored. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 13:45:41 GMT
Was there a Queerfest run somewhere along the lines of the numerous Gay Prides - that term "Queerfest" seems to ring a bell but in a positive LGBT type event. There's one at Oxford University every year - run by the most liberal college in the university, and no-one as far as I'm aware has ever batted an eyelid at the title, it always welcomes anyone no matter how they identify. Certainly when I went it was just a day for everyone to gather together and have fun in a mini-festival atmosphere. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2017 13:53:05 GMT
As the certain admin in question it's my job to generate discussion. However I take that accusation seriously, and if people think this thread should be removed then I'll do it. Odd that it is often those who self-identify as social liberals who want things banned (certain newspapers for example) and opinions contrary to their own censored. Firstly, complaining about what is said is not censorship. In fact it's evidence of the lack of it. On the wider issue there has to be a line (which is clearly far away from this thread); white supremacists, anti-semites, Islamic hate preachers, etc. All need to be censored as their words promote violence. Liberals have, on the whole, been too soft on these issues and it's good to see a more robust push back. Too much liberty and you get the radicalisation of terrorists on the streets of Charlottesville or Borough Market. Words are powerful and extremists rely on being able to spread those words widely. Both libertarians on the right and liberals on the left need to face reality, that freedom cannot be absolute. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 28, 2017 14:22:03 GMT
Although I am an active supporter of Pride, there are many aspects of the LGBTQA+ (or whatever forms are currently acceptable) and the Queer agenda that I really cannot embrace.
The forced use of umbrella terms really frustrates me. Whilst I agree that there are some limited areas of common cause, they are not enough to require everyone to be lumped together under a collective term.
As a gay male, I identify as gay. Not LGBTQA. Gay. The challenges I have faced through life and the challenges faced by gay men through history are different to the other letters in the list. This doesn't give my challenges any greater importance than those faced by others. It just means that they are mine and it is my right to identify with the term Gay.
The umbrella term have conflated sexuality with gender identity - and they are not necessarily linked. To force them together creates confusion and lack of clarity in bringing key issues forward in campaigns.
I would be far happier for each community to have their own structures, campaigns, presence and then come together where there are issues which affect one or more group. That way everyone can have a both individual and collective identity if they so choose whereas the current direction of travel is towards conforming to an agenda which does not always reflect that needs, desires or concerns of the individual.
It seems that when we should be celebrating diversity, we are being told that be conformist. It is that sort of tension that does long term damage to everyone involved.
Queer as a term has a history and whilst the term is being reclaimed, that reclamation is not clear as to what it wants the word to mean in a modern context. For some it is an alternative to LGBTQA, for some it is just associated with sexuality, for others it is part of a modern gay male identity.
I would never use it as part of my identity - but can see why some might choose to use it.
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