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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 5:54:56 GMT
£80k is an incomprehensibly high salary for the majority of people, and particularly the young. When the Conservatives are talking as though someone on that level of salary is hard-done-by for being taxed on the part of it that is already more than many people will earn in half a decade, it gives the thoroughly accurate impression that Conservatives simply have no idea what life is like for people who aren't rich. |
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Post by Jan on Jun 8, 2017 6:39:26 GMT
I really wish I, or someone, could put their finger on this whole divide between the younger generation (myself included) being so pro Labour (or Jeremy Corbyn) and their parents being staunch Conservatives. As much as I thought I'd be fine with it, tonight I was really struggling to come to terms with my parents decision that they will likely be voting Conservative, and I just don't know why. They're brilliant in that I can have totally reasonable political debates with them, and whilst I've been pretty vocal and passionate about Labour and Corbyn, I've seen nothing of the same kind in return from them in favour of Conservative other than things along the line of "well we've always voted Conservative" or "I just did what my parents used to do". They seem to have no rebuttal for their dislike of Labour other than blindly repeating phrases they've heard from different media outlets without any expansion or reason behind them and without anything further to add from their own minds. I am so worried that their motive to vote the way they most likely will do is being manipulated by things they read, see and hear. I can't get my head around why they are so opposed to policies which seem to make sense to me and all my peers. And not even that - so many high profile people who are my parents generation are also strongly campaigning for Labour. They talk about all the crap left behind by previous Labour governments but seem to miss the point entirely that Corbyn is trying to be a different kind of Labour leader and that there seems to be a clear and present reason why so many politicians - Conservative and Labour - are against him. Not to mention various owners and personnel of various different media outlets. It seems like the dangers that a Conservative government pose pale into insignificance because they either "don't like Corbyn" or because they're paying to have their minds made up for them by someone else. So. There's my "political rant". But my question is still: I don't understand WHY I feel the way that I do. And WHY my parents feel the way they do. What is it??? All the above is written from my heart and from a place that only wants good for my future. But what is the reason?? Christ, you can tell its midnight. What a load of crap, eh!! I was in London during the IRA bombings and I remember Corbyn cozying up to them, inviting them to the Commons, and speaking on the same platforms as them with tedious regularity - he never did the same with the Unionist terrorists. He was roundly condemned for this by the majority in the Labour party. McDonnell is even worse. You could hardly call the newspapers' digging this up again now as smearing him because it is true. Although I've voted Labour in the past he personally lost my vote right then. Also he's not really offering anything different or fresh on the economic side - it only seems that way because you don't remember the 1970's - nationalisation, for example, was extensively in force then and was very far from a success. So, maybe your parents just remember. |
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Post by loureviews on Jun 8, 2017 6:44:24 GMT
I'm a higher tax rate payer and a Labour supporter. Parsley's view is that of a traditional conservative who will never change. I believe those of us who are comfortably off should give something back for the good of others. And for anyone working in the NHS to consider it safe in Tory hands ...
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Post by boybooshka on Jun 8, 2017 7:29:06 GMT
Although I strongly disagree with it, I understand Parsley's stance (never thought I'd find myself saying that  ) in a self interest, directly effected way because of the taxation proposals. Anyone voting Tory who isn't or aren't likely to be effected by that I just don't get though, and can only explain away in by inheritance voting or believing the crap the msm media feed them. I am a true believer in nationalisation or not for profit operation of essential services. Businesses which are primarily machines for making profit have no place in health, education, public transport or utilities. As for a Corbyn being a terrorist sympathiser, good grief. I very much see him as a peace maker, he tries to bring people together not by sympathising with people's stances but at least acknowledging that they feel they've got a valid argument even if he doesn't agree with it. This helps to get conversations started. And yes he did meet loyalists too. skwawkbox.org/2017/05/25/world-exclusive-corbyn-mowlams-envoy-to-ira-and-loyalists/If we reject his new realigned Labour Party, which unfortunately polls seems to indicate we are going to, I despair for the future of this country. How much more Orwellian can things get? |
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Post by infofreako on Jun 8, 2017 7:29:39 GMT
I certainly didn't get the impression parsley considered it safe in Tory hands. It came across more that it was failing and shouldn't be in government hands at all
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 7:30:49 GMT
"
Even now my average week is 60 hours
I refuse to be be punished by a Labour government
For having this work ethic
For choosing to help myself
"
60 hours? Really? U said on another thread u see over 200 productions a year too! Unless u work/live in the centre of town I think there could be some fantasticallism going on here somewhere......
Incidentally I can be at work for up to 70 hours a week and I struggle to make ends meet, if labour get in my wages will go up. A lot.
So as I work harder than u for a LOT less I say screw the tories and their sodomy of the working class.
That is all
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 7:44:46 GMT
I just can't quite get my head around people who vote entirely in their own self-interest. I live in a Conservative stronghold. I've done so all my life. I'm not super wealthy but I do alright for myself. But it has never once occurred to me to vote for the status quo just because my life under the status quo is fine. I'm not disabled, I barely even get colds, I don't claim benefits, my only debt is my student loan, I don't (and won't) have children, but even so, I can see which parties look most like they really don't care if the vulnerable members of society live or die, and I will always vote against them. I literally cannot understand how people vote without considering the wider implications. It makes zero sense to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 9:02:23 GMT
" Even now my average week is 60 hours I refuse to be be punished by a Labour government For having this work ethic For choosing to help myself " 60 hours? Really? U said on another thread u see over 200 productions a year too! Unless u work/live in the centre of town I think there could be some fantasticallism going on here somewhere...... Incidentally I can be at work for up to 70 hours a week and I struggle to make ends meet, if labour get in my wages will go up. A lot. So as I work harder than u for a LOT less I say screw the tories and their sodomy of the working class. That is all Work and live In centre of town |
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Post by crowblack on Jun 8, 2017 9:28:55 GMT
A conservative attitude Is to live within ones own means Funny that - the friends I know who vote Tory (and there aren't many) were all given massive leg-ups by their well-off parents, ironically, in some cases, parents who themselves benefitted from the postwar socialist reforms in education, housing, health and general social mobility . There's an excellent cartoon strip by Toby Morris called 'on a plate' that nails it. |
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Post by kathryn on Jun 8, 2017 9:39:36 GMT
I just can't quite get my head around people who vote entirely in their own self-interest. I live in a Conservative stronghold. I've done so all my life. I'm not super wealthy but I do alright for myself. But it has never once occurred to me to vote for the status quo just because my life under the status quo is fine. I'm not disabled, I barely even get colds, I don't claim benefits, my only debt is my student loan, I don't (and won't) have children, but even so, I can see which parties look most like they really don't care if the vulnerable members of society live or die, and I will always vote against them. I literally cannot understand how people vote without considering the wider implications. It makes zero sense to me. I'm sorry to say this, but some people are just arseholes. They literally don't care about anyone else suffering as long as they are ok. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 9:43:28 GMT
I just can't quite get my head around people who vote entirely in their own self-interest. I live in a Conservative stronghold. I've done so all my life. I'm not super wealthy but I do alright for myself. But it has never once occurred to me to vote for the status quo just because my life under the status quo is fine. I'm not disabled, I barely even get colds, I don't claim benefits, my only debt is my student loan, I don't (and won't) have children, but even so, I can see which parties look most like they really don't care if the vulnerable members of society live or die, and I will always vote against them. I literally cannot understand how people vote without considering the wider implications. It makes zero sense to me. To risk co-opting an old election slogan 'I'm with Baemax' I live in a Labour stronghold, but was brought up around Conservatives in my family/their friends (except my Mum who 'came out' strongly anti them virtually the minute my Dad died but anyway). None of them particularly wealthy, but nobody particularly struggling. Meanwhile my Dad's side of the family could basically populate the Jeremy Kyle show, and while I think 'benefit cheats' are generally a myth, I can point you to a fair few in that crowd. Still it has never occurred to me to vote Conservative. Because I see people struggling, and while I might not directly need some of that stuff I'm very conscious of being on disaster away from it.
I have many friends who work for the NHS and in education, myself being the latter as well (until recently) and I cannot in good vote for a party that would ruin both. I don't and won't have children, but I don't see why I shouldn't care about their education in the broader sense. I do obviously use the NHS, was at the Doctor's this morning in fact, could I get by with private healthcare? probably, do I think everyone should have to because I could? defiantly not.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 10:57:40 GMT
I'm probably more mobile in my voting than most here. The only main party that I have, and never could, vote for is UKIP. Under Cameron, and with the coalition, the liberal conservatism has now sadly given way to something more akin to the Michael Howard era party, dog whistles and barely suppressed anger in lieu of policy. Labour may be lacking in many areas now but at least they didn't invade Iraq under a false premise, Farron is a pound shop Nick Clegg and the Greens aren't standing here! Decisions, decisions.....
In the past twenty or so years I've been in three way marginal, LD/CON marginal and now I'm in a LAB/CON marginal so, unusually, my vote has nearly always counted for something. As such tactical voting has become a way of life!
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Post by duncan on Jun 8, 2017 11:05:07 GMT
No party has a manifesto that will save the NHS, they are all liars.
The fact is the NHS was not designed for the provision of universal healthcare to a population of 65 million who are going to live to 90 and require all of those lovely expensive treatments ( a lot of them for years and maybe decades) and facilities that were not envisaged in the 1940s.
Either the NHS has to change and stop offering free universal care or else our taxes have to go up to pay for it - but as both options are toxic to voters then no party will take the problem by the horns. Until they do we will continue to spend more and more of the tax income of this country on a sticking plaster solution.
No matter what someone's political persuasion is they have to realise that in its current format the NHS is dragging the entire economy down - it has to change and someone in power has to come out and say it but as they are too afraid they wont and we'll continue to throw money down the drain just so each successive Government can say they have spent more than the previous lot.
Its a nasty cycle of spending rather than looking at the solution.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 11:07:36 GMT
It didn't quote properly so I don't know exactly what bit I said that has you annoyed...
But I know full well that nobody can outright fix everything, never mind the example of the NHS. But I feel that any party but the Tories aren't out to deliberately dismantle it. So right now I'll take that. (I likely won't get it, but as we're talking voting preference)
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Post by duncan on Jun 8, 2017 11:10:53 GMT
The point is though no matter who you are voting for the NHS does need dismantling for the reasons outlined - its not sustainable and until a Government admits that we are going to be in an ever increasing hole.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 11:32:34 GMT
I'm not denying it has issues that need fixing, I've spent enough time waiting for appointments etc like anyone, as well as hearing the utter horror stories from other people. It (and education) were two examples borrowed from Baemax's point in the wider 'voting to make life better for other people' approach point.
I take your point that the NHS needs fixing, personally I voted for a party I think has the best shot at that, but each to their own, such is democracy!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 11:42:04 GMT
Least we know 68 people are voting!
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 8, 2017 11:43:03 GMT
You lot are great. Thanks to all for presenting clear arguments on both sides. I'm proud to be voting Labour this election but I now maybe understand a little better what will lead people to vote otherwise, if I can't always understand why. But maybe I never will and I just have to do what I feel is right!
But please carry on this rather healthy debate, this board has a far wider range of people and thoughts than my facebook and twitter does, so in some terms it's far more interesting to read the opinions of 'strangers' than everyone who you already know agrees with you!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 11:45:03 GMT
Could be a lot worse, we could have the American system (which, even after Obama's painstaking efforts, is still way short of the coverage we get). Imagine an election where one of the parties here was promising to take away coverage for 7% of the population and still getting elected.
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Post by sherriebythesea on Jun 8, 2017 14:37:44 GMT
Could be a lot worse, we could have the American system (which, even after Obama's painstaking efforts, is still way short of the coverage we get). Imagine an election where one of the parties here was promising to take away coverage for 7% of the population and still getting elected. Health care in the US is a nightmare. Insurance companies are bleeding consumers to death and taking some of that money and putting it right into politicians pockets. I administer the Health Insurance for the company I work for. Each year it is crazy trying to find a policy that will just let us keep what benefits we have and not have the premiums too much higher. And then to hear people who don't have access to employee sponsored insurance, screaming to repeal ObamaCare, all the while they are enrolled and depend on the ACA, not realizing that they are the same thing. Our country is so f**ked in so many ways right now |
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Post by infofreako on Jun 8, 2017 14:43:14 GMT
Well the gaps spread between the top 2. Lib dems have done far better on this forums polls than others I've been watching. Every single forum I use has labour on top by varying degrees which is puzzling considering how the polls are predicting tonights outcome
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 14:58:02 GMT
As I approach the community hall which is my polling station, I read: "strong and stable my arse" flyposted to a telecoms box just outside. But Theresa May has the last laugh in the subliminal election messaging stakes as, prominently displayed in the entrance porch, is a colourful Zumba poster featuring a smiling female gymnast and the single banner word: "STRONG".
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Post by Mr Snow on Jun 8, 2017 15:53:37 GMT
I did choose one of the top 4 on the list because to me this time the choice seems clear. But in the past I have voted for each of them in a General Election. I consider myself a floating voter with no party allegiance whatsoever.
That’s why I get depressed when these discussions split so quickly into them and us. I'm amazed that people believe that something as amorphous as a Club of politico’s can together form a Party that really means anything. They support a Party life they choose to support a Football team. I’ve had the vote for 40 years and seen each of those parties policiesmove around quite a bit. To me that makes sense. We have all prospered (yes I mean that) under a mixed economy and when a Party recognises that there are conflicting needs to be met, it tends to be more electable. They have to accept that and moderate their extremists. The Conservative Party have been more successful at this and less dogmatic which is why they’ve been in power for 28 of those 40 years, despite not being at all ‘popular’ – witness the results of our poll.
As long as we are stuck with a two party system we are hostage to dogma (witness Brexit, Holland, Trump etc.) and reluctantly I’m now in favour of PR with the hope of being ruled by coalitions (with all their disadvantage) of centre parties. However, our representatives will never vote for that, so I can dream on.
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Post by stuartmcd on Jun 8, 2017 16:02:47 GMT
Well the gaps spread between the top 2. Lib dems have done far better on this forums polls than others I've been watching. Every single forum I use has labour on top by varying degrees which is puzzling considering how the polls are predicting tonights outcome I don't really pay much attention to the polls. In 2015 the polls had Labour and the Conservatives neck and neck so it was a shocker when the exit poll was released and Labour was a lot lower than anticipated. No poll, including the exit poll, expected the Conservatives to receive a majority |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jun 8, 2017 16:03:54 GMT
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) in a self interest, directly effected way because of the taxation proposals. Anyone voting Tory who isn't or aren't likely to be effected by that I just don't get though, and can only explain away in by inheritance voting or believing the crap the msm media feed them.
