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Post by fiyero on Mar 15, 2024 9:42:59 GMT
This post: We had some very upset performers in another thread recently due to them being misidentified on stage. Can discussion about who is/isn’t on include your source of information please. If theatres are not displaying correct information that’s down to them. If you guess and get it wrong that’s down to you so please don’t. Thank you. Reminded me of a big bug bear of mine, not knowing who is on. This was in the MJ thread where what you think is the cast-board is really just the normal cast list like you'd see in the programme. It is is right by an entrance door and you feel in the way waiting for it to rotate. I only noticed it wasn't a cast board when I studied my photo of it. Same at Moulin Rouge (unless its changed recently) where there is the normal cast list then a rotation to covers on today. Not defending it but you can see why a performer would be misidentified when management (at some level) seem to be keeping it a secret that they are on! I am someone who sees shows multiple times and am always keen to see covers and alternates. I have seen a few smashing their cover debuts too, just by chance. But I hate how hard it is to find out. I saw School of Rock at Woking, no cast board and I asked if there were any covers, nobody knew. Alternate Dewey was on. I saw Jersey Boys in Eastbourne (quite a trek!) Went specifically to see the alternate Frankie and saw a sign saying the 1st cover was on. Oh well, always a gamble. The alternate I wanted to see was actually on, just an old sign hadn't been taken down. Les Miserables (before the original run closed), I asked if any covers were on - was told none were. Heard an announcement but the audience were so LOUD I couldn't hear who for so spent act 1 guessing until Gavroche came on and was clearly an adult female rather than a child boy (She was brilliant too!) So what rights do we have? In the good old days there would have been a slip in the programme. Now it seems some shows have no slip, no sign and no announcement! It isn't always easy to identify who you are seeing visually! |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Mar 15, 2024 10:50:59 GMT
Just for context, and for those who didn’t see the thread where the upset occurred, I think there are three potential areas of concern.
Firstly, attendance. If cast members are casually referred to as being off when they weren’t then some might see that as a slur on their attendance.
Secondly, positive or negative comments about a performance which are assigned to the wrong person.
Thirdly, offence that might be caused by just saying someone is someone else.
Totally agree that it should be the theatre’s responsibility to tell audiences clearly who is appearing.
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Post by Distant Dreamer... on Mar 16, 2024 16:49:50 GMT
Thank you for setting up this topic fiyero as I share your view totally! I feel it is very disrespectful if the theatre does not announce who is performing, unless they are the main cast...regardless of what the show is. As for front of house staff not knowing either, that is totally inexcusable. Cast screens should be in every venue and an announcement also made before the performance starts. For me, cast is very important and I appreciate how different people can add to a role. It's the variety I greatly enjoy (and very much a big part of opera as well). Sadly, some audience members don't seem to care and it adds to a wider topic of why people see shows. Some people will just want to see the show and won't know or care to know who they see. Others, like me, want to appreciate each performer. In respect of BurlyBeaR's comments, absolutely agree. This should not be an opportunity to spread negativity but embrace the diversity of theatre. Out of interest in a longer runnnig west end musical (6 months or more), what are the chances of seeing all the main cast on? I'm convinced the changes are very low given holidays and sickness...intrigued to see if others know more. |
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Post by Dr Tom on Mar 16, 2024 22:34:23 GMT
I completely agree that all venues should have cast boards visible, ideally more than one. Some venues have them on screens, but they are in such awkward places that you feel like you're blocking other people coming in while you wait for them to rotate.
Even then, there have been plenty of cases where the cast board is wrong, or they've left up posters of cast change details from previous shows.
Some venues don't have cast boards at all, or only announce changes to main roles. The smaller roles, ensemble and swings don't seem to matter.
I've been sat in audiences during the interval with people behind me discussing the programme and saying things like "are you sure that's him?", knowing full well that someone else is on in the role (but I would never turn around and say that).
Now, of course last minute changes and role swaps during the show are inevitable, but I do feel that these should be announced (out of respect for both the audience and the performers. I was at Frozen recently when Ben Irish took over as Hans during the show and that was announced (but they didn't ever announce who had taken over Ben's role as Pabbie).
Ultimately, I feel for anyone who is misidentified, but the theatre has to take a huge amount of responsibility here. There are a lot of theatre goers who just want to say thank you to the people who they think they saw on social media, and not everyone has access to sources like TheatreBoard.
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Post by Distant Dreamer... on Mar 17, 2024 10:18:43 GMT
If I were a performer I’d also feel a bit upset that I wasn’t recognised if I had covered a certain role.
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Post by craigbowker on Mar 19, 2024 9:29:38 GMT
I don't often wish we had playbills over here, but when it comes to getting inserts with that night's cast, they're welcomed.
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Post by fiyero on Mar 20, 2024 18:47:52 GMT
Woking again for I Should Be So Lucky matinee. I'd seen on Twitter that covers were on so asked if there was a cast board, then specifically if any covers on. Was told they didn't think any were as there would be a sign by the door. A supervisor said 2 were on when pushed and found the signs on a clipboard. They obviously hadn't bothered to put them up.
There was an announcement though so people would at least have had some notification if they cared!
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Post by ceebee on Mar 21, 2024 9:29:15 GMT
Where cast lists get frustrating is when you book to see a certain performer/combo, only to find it has changed on the day. For example, I booked to see Jesus Christ Superstar last night in Crawley, as Luke Street had put his performance dates as alternate Jesus / Judas on his instagram, and I wanted to see him play Judas opposite Ian McIntosh as Jesus which (to me) would be a vocal battle! I turned up to find that Ian McIntosh wasn't on as Jesus, and instead Timothy Roberts took on the role as second cover (perhaps even third for the whole tour?). Well, I would firstly like to say that Timothy Roberts absolutely smashed the role of Jesus - he was SUPERB! I really enjoyed his performance and the dynamic between him and Luke Street as Judas was fantastic.
However....
I have now paid around £700 for tickets to see this show on four different occasions, primarily to see Ian McIntosh as Jesus, and he has only performed in one show.
Interestingly, constantly being off/understudied just raises the profile of the very capable ensemble members, and it is directly due to Luke Street's brilliant Judas that I sought to rebook for this show. Here's a guy who played Jesus at yesterday's matinee and Judas at the evening show - that's a good day's work by anybody's standards.
At the very least, all producers/venues should be totally transparent about which cast is on and they should proactively share this information online as well as at the venue. Ticket prices are becoming too expensive for producers and venues to arrogantly dismiss or ignore concerns around which cast people are seeing.
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Post by forfivemoreminutes on Mar 21, 2024 10:35:51 GMT
Where cast lists get frustrating is when you book to see a certain performer/combo, only to find it has changed on the day. . From the website: The appearance of any member of cast is subject to change and may be affected by contracts, holiday, illness, or events beyond the producers’ control I understand it’s annoying when you want to see someone in particular, and more venues definitely should display cast boards (tour venues are notoriously bad for this over West End) but… you can’t control cast illness? and even if the venue did publish the cast, you can’t ask for a refund or an exchange because a certain performer isn’t on 99% of the time, it only changes on the day because someone is unable to perform, I’m sure you’d rather have a talent understudy than a struggling lead? |
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Post by ceebee on Mar 21, 2024 11:02:18 GMT
Where cast lists get frustrating is when you book to see a certain performer/combo, only to find it has changed on the day. . From the website: The appearance of any member of cast is subject to change and may be affected by contracts, holiday, illness, or events beyond the producers’ control I understand it’s annoying when you want to see someone in particular, and more venues definitely should display cast boards (tour venues are notoriously bad for this over West End) but… you can’t control cast illness? and even if the venue did publish the cast, you can’t ask for a refund or an exchange because a certain performer isn’t on 99% of the time, it only changes on the day because someone is unable to perform, I’m sure you’d rather have a talent understudy than a struggling lead? My point is that greater transparency on who is performing helps to manage expectations. My own view is that customers should absolutely be able to change their booking if they wish to, for any reason. |
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Post by forfivemoreminutes on Mar 21, 2024 13:15:34 GMT
From the website: The appearance of any member of cast is subject to change and may be affected by contracts, holiday, illness, or events beyond the producers’ control I understand it’s annoying when you want to see someone in particular, and more venues definitely should display cast boards (tour venues are notoriously bad for this over West End) but… you can’t control cast illness? and even if the venue did publish the cast, you can’t ask for a refund or an exchange because a certain performer isn’t on 99% of the time, it only changes on the day because someone is unable to perform, I’m sure you’d rather have a talent understudy than a struggling lead? My point is that greater transparency on who is performing helps to manage expectations. My own view is that customers should absolutely be able to change their booking if they wish to, for any reason. Yeah but you can't even change on the day if you're unwell, it wouldn't be good for business if they just let people cancel on the day because they don't like who's on (especially for circumstances out of anyone's control, may I reiterate) |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Mar 21, 2024 14:02:34 GMT
Producers only want us to care about who’s on when it suits them. Big up actor X, Y and Z to sell the tickets but then go quiet when they don’t appear. Not even the curtesy of telling people someone is indisposed and naming the alternate. It’s completely one sided.
I don’t see how it doesn’t make sense to allow tickets to be exchanged for a different day in the same run right up to an hour before the performance. Either because of cast changes or just because sh*t happens, people get poorly, have care commitments or any other unforeseen circumstances. ATG+ have this as one of their “benefits” but really, keeping your money but changing the performance date seems an entirely reasonable ask. Nobody loses anything and you have a happy customer.
Of course theatres seem to have customer satisfaction at the very bottom of their priorities, despite their claims to the contrary, the post show “how did we do” surveys etc. Last year in this forum a producer had a go at us for moaning about ticket prices “let producers make some money” etc. Ok but how about reciprocating by treating paying customers better, announcing who’s actually performing and being a bit more flexible?
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Post by Dave B on Mar 21, 2024 14:08:09 GMT
but really, keeping your money but changing the performance date seems an entirely reasonable ask. Nobody loses anything and you have a happy customer. As much as I agree with your general point, there is one missing here. If the show cannot sell the returned seats with an hours notice but could have sold the seats for the day you change to - the show is out the cost of those tickets. They could have sold 4 tickets but they actually sold 2.
As a customer I'd love if they all had the NT's system of credit with pretty much no questions asked but I think the Donmar and Almeida's system of crediting you *if* they sell the ticket is, at the end of the day, fair enough.
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Post by ceebee on Mar 21, 2024 14:37:16 GMT
My point is that greater transparency on who is performing helps to manage expectations. My own view is that customers should absolutely be able to change their booking if they wish to, for any reason. Yeah but you can't even change on the day if you're unwell, it wouldn't be good for business if they just let people cancel on the day because they don't like who's on (especially for circumstances out of anyone's control, may I reiterate) The whole business model should change so that tickets can be changed for a fee to an alternative performance. Why should people spend hundreds just to find their preferred person isn't on? If I want own label beans, I'll buy them, but I was expecting Heinz 'cos it said Heinz on the label. (Yes, I'm comparing actors with baked beans.) |
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Post by forfivemoreminutes on Mar 21, 2024 14:51:10 GMT
but really, keeping your money but changing the performance date seems an entirely reasonable ask. Nobody loses anything and you have a happy customer. As much as I agree with your general point, there is one missing here. If the show cannot sell the returned seats with an hours notice but could have sold the seats for the day you change to - the show is out the cost of those tickets. They could have sold 4 tickets but they actually sold 2.
As a customer I'd love if they all had the NT's system of credit with pretty much no questions asked but I think the Donmar and Almeida's system of crediting you *if* they sell the ticket is, at the end of the day, fair enough.
this is exactly it - touring shows in particular do not get last minute sales of tourists wondering in off the streets like west end shows can. theatre is still a struggling industry and could not afford for last minute cancellations to happen in this way. some theatres that DO offer exchanges on the day then will dynamically price the return at a lower band to get it shifted last min, again losing them money. I do understand it’s annoying when things happen and you’ve got a ticket you can’t get your money back from - just yesterday I was feeling unwell and ATG, despite being an ATG+ member, wouldn’t even exchange. but i just sold it myself to someone and it wasn’t the end of the world. And, ticket protection options exist for if you do think you may need to cancel last minute, i don’t think a lot of them take ‘i don’t want to see the understudy’ as a reasonable excuse though… |
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Post by mrnutz on Mar 21, 2024 15:21:44 GMT
but really, keeping your money but changing the performance date seems an entirely reasonable ask. Nobody loses anything and you have a happy customer. As a customer I'd love if they all had the NT's system of credit with pretty much no questions asked but I think the Donmar and Almeida's system of crediting you *if* they sell the ticket is, at the end of the day, fair enough.
The Donmar also credit you without necessarily reselling the ticket, I believe. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Mar 21, 2024 15:27:54 GMT
Last minute sales in the WE will most likely be discounted. Many on this forum rarely if ever pay full face value for a ticket because they have the flexibility to buy rush. Touring shows get advance bookings at full ticket price. If profitability lives or dies based on a last minute exchange leaving a seat for that nights performance unsold but in its place selling a seat on a different day then I’d suggest that the show has much bigger problems. I’m not buying it, it’s just smoke and mirrors to try to justify terrible service.
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Post by forfivemoreminutes on Mar 21, 2024 15:36:38 GMT
I’m not buying it, it’s just smoke and mirrors to try to justify terrible service. When you purchase a ticket, you agree to the terms and conditions of sale. 'Changing your mind' isn't a reason for these to be broken. Every show website states that they cannot guarantee the appearance of a certain performer, and when you buy your ticket YOU agree to this, it's not terrible service to stick to the terms of sale? At the end of the day, theatre is a business. |
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Post by ceebee on Mar 21, 2024 16:00:05 GMT
I’m not buying it, it’s just smoke and mirrors to try to justify terrible service. When you purchase a ticket, you agree to the terms and conditions of sale. 'Changing your mind' isn't a reason for these to be broken. Every show website states that they cannot guarantee the appearance of a certain performer, and when you buy your ticket YOU agree to this, it's not terrible service to stick to the terms of sale? At the end of the day, theatre is a business. You missed my "Heinz" analogy earlier. If a show is selling itself using promo photos of a decent lead who is relatively well known and that lead fails to perform in 3 out of 4 shows booked (whether indisposed, ill, babysitting, day off, on holiday), then I reserve the right to be able to flex my booking to see the person I paid to see. I don't normally get hung up on this stuff, and happily enjoy many understudies/covers (and I see ALOT of theatre). Perhaps for that reason, when I am literally spending thousands of pounds each year, I expect the publicised performer to fulfil as many shows as they can. Perhaps in the case of Jesus Christ Superstar I've just been unlucky regarding the lead (and don't get me wrong, Luke Street as the alternate for both Judas AND Jesus is sensational). Regarding touring shows, it isn't good enough to treat the provinces as second-class or inferior to a perhaps more monied west-end audience. Touring show prices are comparable with west end now in many instances, without the option of day seats/rush tickets. Frankly, any producer with a penchant for quoting terms and conditions and a "couldn't care less" attitude deserves to fail - audiences can spend their money on other pursuits, and because I have ended up playing "JCS lottery" and it has cost me the best part of £700, it makes me far less reluctant to book in advance and far more likely to hunt down locations where the show is selling badly and I can pick up a freebie or a £13 ticket on the day. This benefits nobody and is the road to ruin. This is where the likes of WestEndCovers and Instagram are of great value, because you can identify performers and productions you want to see and then buy tickets accordingly, relatively confident that you will get to see what you paid for. |
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Post by Dave B on Mar 21, 2024 16:06:18 GMT
As a customer I'd love if they all had the NT's system of credit with pretty much no questions asked but I think the Donmar and Almeida's system of crediting you *if* they sell the ticket is, at the end of the day, fair enough.
The Donmar also credit you without necessarily reselling the ticket, I believe. Oh fab, my mistake there then. The only time I returned one was for the recent Macbeth, it had been sold by the time I turned away from BO so my credit was instant  |
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Post by forfivemoreminutes on Mar 21, 2024 16:14:05 GMT
When you purchase a ticket, you agree to the terms and conditions of sale. 'Changing your mind' isn't a reason for these to be broken. Every show website states that they cannot guarantee the appearance of a certain performer, and when you buy your ticket YOU agree to this, it's not terrible service to stick to the terms of sale? At the end of the day, theatre is a business. You missed my "Heinz" analogy earlier. If a show is selling itself using promo photos of a decent lead who is relatively well known and that lead fails to perform in 3 out of 4 shows booked (whether indisposed, ill, babysitting, day off, on holiday), then I reserve the right to be able to flex my booking to see the person I paid to see. I didn't miss it, I ignored it because comparing actors to beans is truly baffling. Ian isn't a stunt cast, he's an average west end performer - as are the covers. You didn't pay to see him - you paid to see the show as per it says when you book "The appearance of any member of cast is subject to change". No sure what you're not grasping about that. It's not the Ian McIntosh show. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Mar 21, 2024 16:28:33 GMT
Respectfully, we know what the T&C’s say. We’ve been discussing it on this forum for seven years. What we’re talking about is how it could be made better than it is now. The c word.. change. But to my point upthread theatres/producers don't care enough to change. They just want to grab the money.
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Post by forfivemoreminutes on Mar 21, 2024 16:46:50 GMT
Respectfully, we know what the T&C’s say. We’ve been discussing it on this forum for seven years. What we’re talking about is how it could be made better than it is now. The c word.. change. But to my point upthread theatres/producers don't care enough to change. They just want to grab the money. this is really going in circles but how, pray tell, would shows make said money, if everyone just cancelled their tickets every time an understudy went on, they couldn’t be bothered to go or just didn’t fancy it anymore? audiences would be half empty and it. is. not. how. businesses. work. The biggest companies are making profit yes, but you think the theatre industry is really making that much? If you want to make lots of money, theatre is not the industry to work in - most companies are still struggling especially since post covid. The entire economy is in shambles in case you haven’t noticed and theatres are getting arts funding cut left right and centre. It’s not about oh no greedy producers, it’s about being sustainable. |
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Post by punxsutawney on Mar 21, 2024 16:58:28 GMT
I agree with the premise that it should be clearly signed who is an understudy/replacement when you go to see a show, but only so you know who you're seeing and don't misdirect praise or criticism the wrong way. I fundamentally disagree with the idea that a performer being replaced entitles you to a refund unless that is clearly outlined beforehand, this isn't a music concert and you are not paying to see a performer as an individual, you are paying to see the show which they are scheduled to perform in! There are very few star actors that justify that reputation, and you're certainly not seeing them on a touring production!
For every instance of somebody like ceebee above, who has had some poor luck seeing the show in multiple locations and missing an actor they wish to see on the majority of occasions, there will be tenfold instances of people who did not understand what they were booking when they were booking it, and would seek refunds for actors who were never scheduled to perform on that show! Enabling these refunds will lose money and waste time for touring houses that are often already in a fragile position financially.
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Post by ceebee on Mar 21, 2024 17:13:26 GMT
You missed my "Heinz" analogy earlier. If a show is selling itself using promo photos of a decent lead who is relatively well known and that lead fails to perform in 3 out of 4 shows booked (whether indisposed, ill, babysitting, day off, on holiday), then I reserve the right to be able to flex my booking to see the person I paid to see. I didn't miss it, I ignored it because comparing actors to beans is truly baffling. Ian isn't a stunt cast, he's an average west end performer - as are the covers. You didn't pay to see him - you paid to see the show as per it says when you book "The appearance of any member of cast is subject to change". No sure what you're not grasping about that. It's not the Ian McIntosh show. Actually, having seen "an average west end performer" in the role once, I paid good money specifically to see him again. Several times. I haven't seen him once since. I feel justified in expecting more communication regarding the availability of principle cast members. As for your patronising comment regarding what you think I'm "not grasping", I think I'll just leave it there. With a contribution of sixteen largely opinionated posts so far on this forum, I think I prefer to engage with more respectful longstanding members. |
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We had some very upset performers in another thread recently due to them being misidentified on stage. Can discussion about who is/isn’t on include your source of information please. If theatres are not displaying correct information that’s down to them. If you guess and get it wrong that’s down to you so please don’t. Thank you. 
