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Brexit
Oct 27, 2019 11:22:05 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 11:22:05 GMT
After last Christmas's Brexit explanation to your working class relatives, why not explain to them this year how things would be so much better if they let people who know better decide for them. It's clearly the future of Democracy - it's certainly the way the EU has operated since the Lisbon Treaty, for example. The solution is to educate, as you know. When we are left with a media owned by the richest or dumbed down, we get what we deserve back. As for the EU, it is as democratic but the dangers are of scale. It is the scale that makes it appear less accountable and there needs to be a way of overcoming that. |
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Brexit
Oct 27, 2019 12:13:33 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 27, 2019 12:13:33 GMT
It's a miracle you don't bump into lampposts and furniture all day long.
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Brexit
Oct 27, 2019 12:38:50 GMT
via mobile
sf likes this
Post by vdcni on Oct 27, 2019 12:38:50 GMT
While direct democracy has been such a success hasn't it.
It's taken what was a issue relatively low down the list of people's concerns and turned it in to one which has split the country. Where nearly everything is viewed through a single issue lens which we will be arguing about for decades no matter what the result.
And the only argument left seems to be it has to be done because 3 and a half years ago there was a close leave win no matter what the cost. What a victory for direct democracy.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 12:58:37 GMT
It's a miracle you don't bump into lampposts and furniture all day long. You aren’t even attempting to make sense now. The mental contortions needed to twist yourself into supporting the spectre of a socialist Brexit have clearly taken their toll. |
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Brexit
Oct 27, 2019 13:32:08 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 27, 2019 13:32:08 GMT
"Lets leave it to people who know what's best for us, but who don't want to face their own election". The perfect strap line for Remain, and a phrase that captures every Leave argument since Lisbon.
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Post by vdcni on Oct 27, 2019 13:38:19 GMT
And a complete lie so it sums up the leave campaign perfectly.
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Post by sf on Oct 27, 2019 14:39:55 GMT
Neil, we have representative democracy, I don’t expect anyone I vote for to do what I want. I elect them as someone that I hope will think for themselves and react to what changes. This is Victorian era nonsense: 'I want other people to think for me becasue I'm just a simple person'.
People died fighting for full democracy (Deptford bridge to Peterloo and a hundred places in between) and you want to give it to - increasingly - self-interested careerists 'who knows best'. What you are really doing is selling your soul for Remain - for the Empire of Virtue. FFS.
No, it isn't "Victorian era nonsense". It's an accurate description of the way a representative democracy is supposed to work. Our MPs are elected to act in the best interests of their constituents. They are not delegates, and they are not paid to take dictation from the electorate. That doesn't mean ignoring the views of voters, but it does mean they have a duty, which some of them still take seriously, not to rubber-stamp legislation or constitutional changes that will diminish rights and damage the economy.
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Brexit
Oct 27, 2019 19:23:42 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 19:23:42 GMT
Events are moving extremely quickly. Ah, Neil. I really wish they were! ;-) |
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Brexit
Oct 27, 2019 21:15:40 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 27, 2019 21:15:40 GMT
This is Victorian era nonsense: 'I want other people to think for me becasue I'm just a simple person'.
People died fighting for full democracy (Deptford bridge to Peterloo and a hundred places in between) and you want to give it to - increasingly - self-interested careerists 'who knows best'. What you are really doing is selling your soul for Remain - for the Empire of Virtue. FFS.
No, it isn't "Victorian era nonsense". It's an accurate description of the way a representative democracy is supposed to work. Our MPs are elected to act in the best interests of their constituents. They are not delegates, and they are not paid to take dictation from the electorate. That doesn't mean ignoring the views of voters, but it does mean they have a duty, which some of them still take seriously, not to rubber-stamp legislation or constitutional changes that will diminish rights and damage the economy.
Thank you, the Earl of Downton Abbey. You do clearly know what is best for the little people. Well, you and Jo Swinton.
Heaven forbid "rubber stamping" one national referendum, two party manifestos, a PM, Government and Cabinet, and the EU Commission.
Shall we have another referendum - on the latest reckoning 53/47? Would that improve things?
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Post by danb on Oct 27, 2019 21:48:47 GMT
Happy to respect the referendum result as long as the government can guarantee all of the wonderful things they promised on their buses and propaganda, otherwise I may have to take them to the small claims court for the NHS millions that I will never have spent on me.
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Post by sf on Oct 27, 2019 21:49:55 GMT
No, it isn't "Victorian era nonsense". It's an accurate description of the way a representative democracy is supposed to work. Our MPs are elected to act in the best interests of their constituents. They are not delegates, and they are not paid to take dictation from the electorate. That doesn't mean ignoring the views of voters, but it does mean they have a duty, which some of them still take seriously, not to rubber-stamp legislation or constitutional changes that will diminish rights and damage the economy.
Thank you, the Earl of Downton Abbey. You do clearly know what is best for the little people. Well, you and Jo Swinton.
Heaven forbid "rubber stamping" one national referendum, two party manifestos, a PM, Government and Cabinet, and the EU Commission.
Shall we have another referendum - on the latest reckoning 53/47? Would that improve things?
Oh, for God's sake. We live in a representative democracy, and I outlined how a representative democracy is supposed to work. If you don't understand the way your own country's parliament works, or the difference between representative democracy and direct democracy, it's neither my fault nor my problem. And beyond that - NO, Parliament certainly shouldn't "rubber-stamp" a withdrawal agreement that, according to every legitimate analysis, will inflict significant damage on our economy, will cause significant difficulties around the border in Ireland, and which will strip established rights from every single UK citizen. The 2016 referendum result, yes, was a win for Leave, albeit a win won via a combination of barefaced lies and the kind of flagrant cheating that would have seen the result thrown out if it had been a GE, but a 4% margin is not a mandate for this dramatic a change to the status quo (it might have been a mandate, though, for something like Norway-plus, but I think that ship has sailed). Parliament, in this instance, is functioning as it was designed to function: the parliamentary process is essentially a series of checks and balances. There isn't an electoral mandate for this withdrawal agreement, or for any kind of "hard Brexit", and there isn't a parliamentary majority in favour of it either, so of course Johnson's attempts to ram it through the Commons have met with gridlock. And having said THAT, the gridlock can't last indefinitely. Something will have to give. But no, MPs should absolutely NOT rubber-stamp this withdrawal agreement on the back of a 4% majority won forty months ago in a vote in which one side broke the law. They should also not rubber-stamp it on the back of a general election result in which no single party won an outright majority. That simply isn't their job.
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Brexit
Oct 27, 2019 22:45:02 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 27, 2019 22:45:02 GMT
While we're still on the theme of People Who Know Best, it seems one half of the Peoples Vote campaign know what's best for the other half of Peoples Vote campaign, and the other half also know what's best for the first side of Peoples Vote. It goes without saying both sides what's best for everyone else.
Its a curious thing that happens when so many groups know what's best for everyone else, and none of them seem interested in what has been voted for. This is apparently a form of 'representative' democracy and absolutely not 'making sh1t up as you go along'.
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Post by vdcni on Oct 28, 2019 5:42:21 GMT
You mean in the way the leave side has been making sh*t up as it went along.
During the referendum campaign the Norway model was suggested by them, that we would stay in the single market, we were told we would definitely leave with a deal and it would be a great deal, easy to get.
Then after the referendum and the next election the single market and customs union were abandoned to keep the Tory right onside and then when a deal was introduced a good chunk of leavers, including most of the current cabinet voted against it and some of them were involved in negotiating it!
Then all of a sudden No Deal became the only 'real' Brexit even though it's an essentially dishonest position as everything we're currently negotiating would still have to be agreed. To the point that people who voted to leave were called Remainers if they didn't want no deal.
Now we have a deal, worse than May's in many respects, which contains things that Johnson and other hard core leavers weren't willing to accept mere months ago but they now pretend are absolutely fine with (presumably because it's the last chance and it still means there's a possibility of no deal and it lets them rip up workers rights!) while Farage demands an extension from the EU in order to defeat it!!!
We have wasted three and a half years trying to sort this and most of the stumbling blocks have been due to the fantasies of the leave side crashing into the reality of what leave means.
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Brexit
Oct 28, 2019 11:14:03 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 28, 2019 11:14:03 GMT
Back to democracy for a moment - it's curious how things get diverted; I see Remain has one more vote in the next Parliament at Vauxhall with Flo Eshalomi taking over from the retiring Kate Hoey. No sign yet of Chuka '3 parties in 9 months' Umunna giving up his £77K basic.
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Brexit
Oct 28, 2019 11:41:05 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 11:41:05 GMT
Chuka has had more parties this year than Freddie Mercury in his prime. I won't rubbish him as I think he is one of the smarter guys in Parliament. But about 6% of this Parliament are now sitting under another party banner than they were elected on so for that reason alone there has to be an election. Also again I think if you switch parties it should trigger a by-election.
The Labour and Tories will want to try and get back the bulk of their defector seats, the Lib Dems are slated to increase their seat numbers and so are the SNP so an election for all those parties makes sense. But we are now arguing over a few days on when an election should take place!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 13:10:43 GMT
It's as though some people think that changing your mind and adapting to different circumstances is a bad thing.
EDIT: Brexiteer, we have First Past the Post which allows for this. If people want to have a system where MPs who develop their ideas away from their party lose their seats, then all they have to do is move to a proportionally allocated party list system. I doubt that would get through parliament as it is, though (because those who mostly complain about it would find that they lose their ability to govern via a plurality as opposed to a majority).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 13:45:00 GMT
It's as though some people think that changing your mind and adapting to different circumstances is a bad thing. I always find it infuriating when politicians are criticised for saying one thing years ago and another thing now. Intelligent people are always prepared to revise their opinions if new information demands it. Doggedly sticking to one opinion no matter what is a clear indication that someone shouldn't have any authority over anything. |
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Brexit
Oct 28, 2019 17:13:29 GMT
Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 28, 2019 17:13:29 GMT
Looks as if Labour have been outmanoeuvred, FTPA rejected by all Opposition Parties tonight and a single majority Bill tomorrow which will pass and give us an early Dec election and kill off any chance of an amended Withdrawal Act.
Believe Labour were holding out to amend the Withdrawal Act with a Custom Union and confirmatory referendum as per their manifesto.
Lib Dems and SNP became impatient and maybe knew the numbers weren’t there and an election and with Brexit unresolved enhances their chances of gaining more seats.
Cannot honestly see anyone but the Conservatives getting a majority, therefore not sure how the Lib Dem strategy can secure remaining in the EU and will likely increase the risk of us leaving without a deal.
What is likely to happen is that the Tories will remain static with about the same number of seats, Labour / Lib Dems / SNP will also remain with the same number of seats divided differently between each other.
How this split of the opposition Parties prior to the election can facilitate cordiality to form a coalition Government afterwards I have no idea and the SNP will only agree if they can get an independence referendum.
If we want to make this a Brexit only General Election and put Brexit to bed either way then we will all need to look at who to vote for in each Constituency and vote for the one who supports our Brexit view regardless of their Politics, i.e. if you are a remainer in a Tory seat, look who was second last time and only vote for them even if they are not your Party of choice, and vice-versa if a Leaver. There will be many tactical voting sites set up to confirm that your voting intention has the Brexit outcome you require.
A Tory remainer has to be prepared to vote Labour/Lib Dem / A Labour/Lib Dem leaver has to be prepared to vote Tory, are we prepared to do this? if not the stalemate will persist.
Here we go 6 weeks of General Electioneering and then another 6 weeks of Brexiteering afterwards, the cynic in me is looking forward for the Benn Act 2 early January to request an extension and stop a No-Deal exit on the 31st Jan.
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Brexit
Oct 28, 2019 19:00:53 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 19:00:53 GMT
Lib Dems and SNP became impatient and maybe knew the numbers weren’t there and an election and with Brexit unresolved enhances their chances of gaining more seats. I’m led to believe that both the Lib Dems and the SNP now see Labour as increasingly losing discipline and that the nineteen Labour MPs voting to move the Johnson deal to the next stage have been a deciding factor in pushing for an election instead. They see support for a referendum as becoming more limited from that quarter and that Labour rifts are leading us inexorably to a Conservative Brexit with few (probably illusory, knowing Johnson) promises in return. Those rifts and the resulting indecision also led Lib Dems and SNP to approach the EU with assurances that they could support an election, the EU only granting the three month extension on that assertion. |
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Brexit
Oct 28, 2019 23:14:58 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 23:14:58 GMT
It's as though some people think that changing your mind and adapting to different circumstances is a bad thing. EDIT: Brexiteer, we have First Past the Post which allows for this. If people want to have a system where MPs who develop their ideas away from their party lose their seats, then all they have to do is move to a proportionally allocated party list system. I doubt that would get through parliament as it is, though (because those who mostly complain about it would find that they lose their ability to govern via a plurality as opposed to a majority). When someone has stepped down as an MEP they are just replaced by the next person on that parties' list. Having a different voting system doesn't really affect someone changing parties or not. Let's take Chuka as an example he is in a seat which has a Labour Majority of over 26K from the last election so is a pretty rock solid Labour seat. Okay he'll stand in a different seat next time but in cases like this I think that there should be a by-election automatically triggered within 6 months of someone switching parties. This would affect both major parties equally and the seat in this case is almost certain to return to Labour and the chances of me voting Labour are about the same as me beating Laura Kussenberg in a gurning contest. |
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Brexit
Oct 28, 2019 23:53:32 GMT
sf likes this
Post by n1david on Oct 28, 2019 23:53:32 GMT
Back to democracy for a moment - it's curious how things get diverted; I see Remain has one more vote in the next Parliament at Vauxhall with Flo Eshalomi taking over from the retiring Kate Hoey. No sign yet of Chuka '3 parties in 9 months' Umunna giving up his £77K basic. Well, she does have to get elected first. Presumably if the people of Vauxhall want a Leaver MP they’ll choose to vote for one. Chuka isn’t standing for Streatham next time so, again, if his new constituency (Cities of London and Westminster) decides that it wants him as an LD MP then he’ll be elected as one. Remarkable how this voting thing works. |
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Brexit
Oct 29, 2019 6:37:08 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 29, 2019 6:37:08 GMT
Hoey, as a Leaver in a Remain constituency, squeezed in with 20K majority. Chuka Umunna standing elsewhere in another GE doesn't serve the voters of Streatham (Labour majority14K)
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Brexit
Oct 29, 2019 13:16:19 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Oct 29, 2019 13:16:19 GMT
The starting pistol has now being fired, the country is going to the polls again on 12th December (don't tell Brenda of Bristol.)
A general election that will be defined by Conservative remainers and Labour leavers.
2 months now of wall to wall election coverage, if you find all this to much, may I suggest the theatre as a great escape!!!
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Brexit
Oct 29, 2019 13:43:33 GMT
via mobile
Post by theatrelovely on Oct 29, 2019 13:43:33 GMT
The starting pistol has now being fired, the country is going to the polls again on 12th December (don't tell Brenda of Bristol.) A general election that will be defined by Conservative remainers and Labour leavers. 2 months now of wall to wall election coverage, if you find all this to much, may I suggest the theatre as a great escape!!! Lib Dems need to sort themselves out and back Labour I think |
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Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 29, 2019 14:10:58 GMT
Lib Dems are either being short sighted or extremely optimistic and have been extremely dismissive of a Corbyn led Labour Party.
Post election and we have a hung Parliament, their position on the Government of Unity has hampered them with Labour even if they were interested and obviously their stance on Brexit would preclude the Conservatives (their Politics outside Brexit are closer to the Tories than Labour, so who knows, the precedent is there)
The Lib Dems are positioning themselves as 'Tory Lite’, in the same way as the Brexit Party could facilitate us remaining in the EU, the Lib Dems could facilitate us leaving the EU as both these Parties will potentially split the votes in the 100 or so marginal seats that actually matter.
I have the honour of being in a constituency where the current leave MP had over 66% of the votes and therefore even if the progressive Parties only put up one candidate my vote wouldn’t have an impact one the overall picture, this though won’t stop me from voting, this is the minimum requirement expected of anyone living in a Democracy, we should all be able to give up ½hour of our lives no matter how often to participate in the Governance of this Country.
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