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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 19:14:42 GMT
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sf likes this
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 19:14:42 GMT
I don't get all the vitriol hatred for David Cameroon, who delivered on his manifesto, even with staunch Brexiters and remainers he seems to not be liked. Really? Given he was the one who caused all this chaos in the first place and ruined this country for generations who didn't want the result that was predominantly backed by people who won't be around long enough to feel its full effects, I think it's rather obvious why remainers at least dislike him so much. The referendum was unnecessary, Brexit is unnecessary, and nothing I have seen convinced me that this will be anything other than a complete disaster for trade, international relations and everything else. For that, David Cameron is entirely to blame given it was his choice to call a vote when he did. |
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Post by sf on Dec 12, 2018 19:21:57 GMT
I don't get all the vitriol hatred for David Cameroon, who delivered on his manifesto, even with staunch Brexiters and remainers he seems to not be liked I do get it - he held a referendum for no other reason than to pacify the right-wing of his party, rather than with consideration for the country as a whole. Opinion polling shows that "Europe/EU" was stated as an issue by less than 5% of the population during the early 2010s, so by holding a referendum he emphasised the issue and created many of the divisions in the wider public we see today. He took almost sole charge of the Remain campaign, which was poorly conceived and executed, saying next to nothing about the positive aspects of EU membership, concentrating on Project Fear and not holding Brexiters to account on the detail of their plans. He did not work well with Remain campaigners outside the Tory party, resulting in botched events and confused messaging. He promised that he would stay regardless of the result, and quit the following morning. He set the house on fire and ran away.
And this - all of this - is why history is almost certainly going to remember him as the most incompetent Prime Minister since Lord North. He gambled the country to appease a minority of his own MPs, didn't bother to fight for the outcome he wanted, lost, and left others to clean up his mess.
May has turned out to be worse than anybody could possibly have imagined, and I've no sympathy for her at all - she is where she is because of red lines she imposed - but she didn't make the mess, she inherited it (and then, yes, made it worse). History isn't going to be kind to her either, and that appalling line about "citizens of nowhere" ought by rights to haunt her for the rest of her life, but Cameron's sins are greater.
Slightly.
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 19:33:52 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 19:33:52 GMT
No doubt there is Brexit fatigue setting in, with a lot of people. However Theresa may not be forgiven for calling an ill-fated general election that took the Conservatives out of power, so that will not help her tonight. This week withdrawing from the vote and I expected a last minute amendment, which never came, she sunk like a ship, like she did in the fatal general election, that again won't help her. So if Mrs May wins tonight, what then? I don't get all the vitriol hatred for David Cameroon, who delivered on his manifesto, even with staunch Brexiters and remainers he seems to not be liked. We are living in strange times, that look like its going to get stranger. David Cameron The spineless **** Offered a Brexit vote Which he had promised to gain party support And then f***ed off When the result didn’t go his way Politicians have NO accountability in the UK It’s pathetic And then people wonder why Society is out of control |
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 19:35:26 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 19:35:26 GMT
The last thing that should be allowed to happen is to let something take place because people are tired and bored. This is our lives, our future and the way that our nation will be perceived for decades. If anyone is bored of what is at stake then they need to get a grip. We are bored of the daily media coverage Which dominates everything I only have one life And don’t want to spend it listening to the same thing day after day I will be dead soon Life is too short |
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 19:35:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 19:35:54 GMT
I don't get all the vitriol hatred for David Cameroon, who delivered on his manifesto, even with staunch Brexiters and remainers he seems to not be liked I do get it - he held a referendum for no other reason than to pacify the right-wing of his party, rather than with consideration for the country as a whole. Opinion polling shows that "Europe/EU" was stated as an issue by less than 5% of the population during the early 2010s, so by holding a referendum he emphasised the issue and created many of the divisions in the wider public we see today. He took almost sole charge of the Remain campaign, which was poorly conceived and executed, saying next to nothing about the positive aspects of EU membership, concentrating on Project Fear and not holding Brexiters to account on the detail of their plans. He did not work well with Remain campaigners outside the Tory party, resulting in botched events and confused messaging. He promised that he would stay regardless of the result, and quit the following morning. He set the house on fire and ran away. Very well put |
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 20:12:07 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Dec 12, 2018 20:12:07 GMT
David Cameron didn't take it likely to put a referendum in the manifesto and would have had an very intelligent policy unit behind him, who advised him it is the best thing to do. Because you didn't get the result you wanted, doesn't mean David Cameron was wrong to see through an electoral pledge.
It wasn't David Cameron that caused Brexit it was uncontrolled immigration that did, it is very well for people in well paid jobs in their ivory palaces theatres and I include myself in this and not respect the result of the referendum and feel it is unfinished business, but if you are someone that works hard and cannot afford to pay a mortgage, but can afford to pay someone elses instead (rent), in a grotty place with no hot water, why would you vote remain? So therefore it becomes a protest vote.
I agree that it never crossed David Cameroon's mind that he would lose the referendum. But it's stunning the people even Tory supporters that are against him, a man that put the conservatives back in power.
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Post by n1david on Dec 12, 2018 20:20:56 GMT
Because you didn't get the result you wanted, doesn't mean David Cameron was wrong to see through an electoral pledge. The point is, this wasn't a big issue for the UK public. It only became a big issue when the referendum happened. I'm not annoyed with him because I didn't get the result I wanted, if it had gone 52-48 the other way it would still have opened up huge divisions in the country that simply weren't there even 5 years ago. UKIP were a minor force, there was not a vast clamour to leave the EU. There was a clamour for an end to austerity, for a better life and for better opportunities, and the EU referendum became an outlet for that - a completely inappropriate one, as the EU was not responsible for the living standards of people who were struggling. It really doesn't matter whether David Cameron did it lightly or following the advice of a very intelligent policy unit. He did it to stop the divisions in the Conservative Party and it ended up being a protest vote and created the mess we are in now. People wanted to give a bloody nose to politicians - I appreciate that and I understand why - but doing it in this referendum means that the whole future of the country has been decided on the basis of some relatively short-term frustrations with (all) politicians. |
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 20:33:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 20:33:05 GMT
David Cameron didn't take it likely to put a referendum in the manifesto and would have had an very intelligent policy unit behind him, who advised him it is the best thing to do. Because you didn't get the result you wanted, doesn't mean David Cameron was wrong to see through an electoral pledge. It wasn't David Cameron that caused Brexit it was uncontrolled immigration that did, it is very well for people in well paid jobs in their ivory palaces theatres and I include myself in this and not respect the result of the referendum and feel it is unfinished business, but if you are someone that works hard and cannot afford to pay a mortgage, but can afford to pay someone elses instead (rent), in a grotty place with no hot water, why would you vote remain? So therefore it becomes a protest vote. I agree that it never crossed David Cameroon's mind that he would lose the referendum. But it's stunning the people even Tory supporters that are against him, a man that put the conservatives back in power. Speak for yourself I got the result I voted for and still think he’s a Tw*t It just hasn’t arrived And sick of waiting for it to be implemented |
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 20:35:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 20:35:42 GMT
David Cameron didn't take it likely to put a referendum in the manifesto and would have had an very intelligent policy unit behind him, who advised him it is the best thing to do. Because you didn't get the result you wanted, doesn't mean David Cameron was wrong to see through an electoral pledge. It wasn't David Cameron that caused Brexit it was uncontrolled immigration that did, it is very well for people in well paid jobs in their ivory palaces theatres and I include myself in this and not respect the result of the referendum and feel it is unfinished business, but if you are someone that works hard and cannot afford to pay a mortgage, but can afford to pay someone elses instead (rent), in a grotty place with no hot water, why would you vote remain? So therefore it becomes a protest vote. I agree that it never crossed David Cameroon's mind that he would lose the referendum. But it's stunning the people even Tory supporters that are against him, a man that put the conservatives back in power. Very intelligent policy unit If someone is “very intelligent” At least by standards in my circles They won’t be working for the government Or in the civil service Depends on your definition of intelligent |
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 21:02:57 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Dec 12, 2018 21:02:57 GMT
David Cameron didn't take it likely to put a referendum in the manifesto and would have had an very intelligent policy unit behind him, who advised him it is the best thing to do. Because you didn't get the result you wanted, doesn't mean David Cameron was wrong to see through an electoral pledge. It wasn't David Cameron that caused Brexit it was uncontrolled immigration that did, it is very well for people in well paid jobs in their ivory palaces theatres and I include myself in this and not respect the result of the referendum and feel it is unfinished business, but if you are someone that works hard and cannot afford to pay a mortgage, but can afford to pay someone elses instead (rent), in a grotty place with no hot water, why would you vote remain? So therefore it becomes a protest vote. I agree that it never crossed David Cameroon's mind that he would lose the referendum. But it's stunning the people even Tory supporters that are against him, a man that put the conservatives back in power. Very intelligent policy unit If someone is “very intelligent” At least by standards in my circles They won’t be working for the government Or in the civil service Depends on your definition of intelligent Very intelligent means that they are very educated, experienced and therefore gained wisdom. |
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 21:03:34 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Dec 12, 2018 21:03:34 GMT
Could have another bank holiday, May Day 2.
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 21:10:01 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 21:10:01 GMT
Closer than many would have expected.
I imagine that this will be followed by a vote of no confidence in parliament now as the figures are not good.
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 21:14:58 GMT
Post by n1david on Dec 12, 2018 21:14:58 GMT
I imagine that this will be followed by a vote of no confidence in parliament now as the figures are not good. But a vote of no confidence in Parliament now needs 2/3rds of MPs to have any effect, so I don't think she's going anywhere soon. I doubt most of those 117 will actually vote for a General Election. |
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 21:15:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 21:15:35 GMT
Well, there’s another episode sorted for the inevitable BBC Brexit drama we’ll get in a few years :lol:
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 21:24:45 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 21:24:45 GMT
I imagine that this will be followed by a vote of no confidence in parliament now as the figures are not good. But a vote of no confidence in Parliament now needs a 2/3rds majority to have any effect, so I don't think she's going anywhere soon. There are two methods, the one you refer to is a motion for an early election before the fixed term is over, which requires two thirds of MPs to pass. The other is a vote of confidence which requires a simple majority, the wording being “this house has no confidence in Her Majesty’s government”. If it passes there are then two weeks to put together a new government and, if labour can't, then there will automatically be a general election.
Are there ten or twenty conservative MPs angry enough to do this? The likelihood has just increased markedly, given that they have no other recourse to a party vote of no confidence.
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 21:32:45 GMT
Post by n1david on Dec 12, 2018 21:32:45 GMT
You're right, sorry, I'm getting carried away*. Yes, if she loses the DUP and there are enough upset ERG members, you might be right.
* I should have been at Don Quixote tonight and am not there because I'm absolutely laden with the cold, so I should have been experiencing a night at the theatre and instead I'm feverish and watching rolling news, which is not probably conducive to rational thought...
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 21:45:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 21:45:16 GMT
I think
These events
Mirror the state the Uk is in
but I think it also causes low morale amongst the general population
We live in a country
Used to failure
What have we actually achieved in the last decade?
Cost of living up
Wages in public sector down
State education crap and young people who lack any basic common sense or coping skills
NHS has failed to meet most of its major targets for so long that no one gives a sh*t anymore
Homicide and knife crime at an all time high
Social and ecomomic Divisions within the same street
Let alone neighbourhood or town or city
Toxic social media and parasitic journalists
Really Brexit is the icing on the cake
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Brexit
Dec 12, 2018 23:10:46 GMT
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peelee likes this
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 23:10:46 GMT
I can't wait for this all to be over, which doesn't appear to be in the near future the way we are heading. I'm just so tired of hearing about it all the time. I follow politics and stuff when I can, but this is such a long drawn thing, I think alot of people are just tired of it. I voted Remain but if we have voted Leave then can we just get on with it already just so it can end.
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Post by kathryn on Dec 12, 2018 23:31:36 GMT
It won’t end, though. We’ll be living with the ramifications of this mess for at least a generation.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 23:49:50 GMT
Ten years time.
Q: So why did people let this happen? Breaking up the UK? Sending the economy into a tailspin?
A: I was bored.
....well, thanks for that.....
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Post by Phantom of London on Dec 12, 2018 23:54:32 GMT
JDon’t think people voted Brexit because they were bored and we are certainly not in a mess, it certainly was a protest vote, you see with Trump being elected and other far right groups the world has tilted towards nationalism, The last time we had this was in 1930’s - so now Theresa has got a vote of confidents, what do you/she do now?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2018 0:07:13 GMT
JDon’t think people voted Brexit because they were bored and we are certainly not in a mess, it certainly was a protest vote, you see with Trump being elected and other far right groups the world has tilted towards nationalism, The last time we had this was in 1930’s - so now Theresa has got a vote of confidents, what do you/she do now? Not bored before but bored now, the strategy being to dull people so much that they no longer care. It’s one of the oldest political con tricks in the book. It isn’t just far right movements globally but also populist left movements as well. The common thread is that of populism. The lie that so called populists trade on is claiming that there is a simple answer to complex issues; they are, without exception, ideologues with no interest in anything beyond their own wishes, least of all those who vote for them. Again, one of the oldest political con tricks in the book. |
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Brexit
Dec 13, 2018 1:44:59 GMT
Post by sf on Dec 13, 2018 1:44:59 GMT
I can't wait for this all to be over, which doesn't appear to be in the near future the way we are heading. I'm just so tired of hearing about it all the time. I follow politics and stuff when I can, but this is such a long drawn thing, I think alot of people are just tired of it. I voted Remain but if we have voted Leave then can we just get on with it already just so it can end. The way to make the Brexit conversation end is to push as hard as you can - shout, tweet, write to your MP, ANYTHING - for us not to leave the EU at all. Any other outcome means years and years of drawn-out negotiations over the trade deals we'll need after we leave. The withdrawal agreement is the easy part, and the withdrawal agreement is proving to be almost impossible to sell to a majority, either in Parliament or among the wider electorate. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2018 6:16:12 GMT
It's boring because it's like watching a badly-written disaster movie where every character is drowning in a sea of idiot balls. There's nothing we can do but watch halfwits make stupid mistakes no sane person should make and wait for the inevitable conclusion everyone saw coming a mile off. |
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Brexit
Dec 13, 2018 6:50:16 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2018 6:50:16 GMT
There's nothing we can do but watch halfwits make stupid mistakes no sane person should make and wait for the inevitable conclusion everyone saw coming a mile off. Well there is an alternative. You could turn your TV off, stop buying lie(news)papers, halt refreshing Twitter, etc. I've curbed my Media usage right down in the last few months and feel miles better for it. Nothing like a bit of blissful ignorance. Granted I will occasionally read this thread on here and check the Independent website for updates, out of sheer interest, but it's quite refreshing not to have it shoved in my face 24/7. |
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