2,762 posts
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Brexit
Nov 15, 2018 13:17:18 GMT
Post by n1david on Nov 15, 2018 13:17:18 GMT
parliament cannot get a majority on 'no deal' either. Parliament doesn't need a majority on No Deal. In the absence of any sort of Deal or delay to Article 50, No Deal is what we will have...
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Brexit
Nov 15, 2018 13:27:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 13:27:31 GMT
parliament cannot get a majority on 'no deal' either. Parliament doesn't need a majority on No Deal. In the absence of any sort of Deal or delay to Article 50, No Deal is what we will have... Then we have to take things into our own hands........
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Brexit
Nov 15, 2018 14:02:22 GMT
Post by timothyd on Nov 15, 2018 14:02:22 GMT
Deal Or No Deal originated in the Netherlands. Although the Dutch format included quiz questions, so involved a fraction of general knowledge. (This is clearly the most important possible post on this thread today) I'm Dutch and watched the show but the Dutch format of Deal or No Deal didn't have any quiz questions.
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2,762 posts
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Brexit
Nov 15, 2018 14:40:24 GMT
Post by n1david on Nov 15, 2018 14:40:24 GMT
Although the Dutch format included quiz questions, so involved a fraction of general knowledge. (This is clearly the most important possible post on this thread today) I'm Dutch and watched the show but the Dutch format of Deal or No Deal didn't have any quiz questions. A Dutch friend told me this some time ago - before posting I verified with en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miljoenenjacht which appears to be the Dutch show that evolved into the international format Deal or No Deal. It goes into quite a lot of detail about the Dutch format which has changed considerably over the years. The questions were, apparently, in the final rounds of the show up until 2002 when the final round was changed to the version which was purely based on chance - previous version detailed at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miljoenenjacht#Variation_used_until_2002It appears that the early rounds do still employ a selection mechanism which involves questions, although these tend to be of the variety of "how many of our audience..." See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miljoenenjacht#Quiz_Round
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1,972 posts
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Brexit
Nov 15, 2018 17:40:27 GMT
Post by sf on Nov 15, 2018 17:40:27 GMT
I was out all of yesterday and most of today. Did I miss anything?
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2,762 posts
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Brexit
Nov 15, 2018 18:02:17 GMT
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Post by n1david on Nov 15, 2018 18:02:17 GMT
I was out all of yesterday and most of today. Did I miss anything? No, we're still up sh*t creek.
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1,863 posts
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Brexit
Nov 15, 2018 18:05:05 GMT
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Post by NeilVHughes on Nov 15, 2018 18:05:05 GMT
I was out all of yesterday and most of today. Did I miss anything? I believe the unexpected warm start to Autumn is having an impact on retail sales, therefore the stock market, and overall confidence in the future of the UK as a trading nation.
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Brexit
Nov 15, 2018 18:07:09 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 18:07:09 GMT
Although the Dutch format included quiz questions, so involved a fraction of general knowledge. (This is clearly the most important possible post on this thread today) I'm Dutch and watched the show but the Dutch format of Deal or No Deal didn't have any quiz questions. There have been several versions in the Netherlands, the one that started it had the box stuff as the final round after quiz type questions and such. On May, she keeps saying that ‘people want us to get on with it’, she does not know this at all but there is one easy way of finding out.
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1,936 posts
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Brexit
Nov 15, 2018 19:24:28 GMT
Post by wickedgrin on Nov 15, 2018 19:24:28 GMT
It's like a real life episode of The Thick of It!!
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Brexit
Nov 16, 2018 17:54:29 GMT
Post by anthony40 on Nov 16, 2018 17:54:29 GMT
(Regardless of how this may come across) This is NOT a political message. I don't care how you voted, all I know is that this is a mess! Embarrassingly so. On an international level. Remember when I posted this? I rest my case!
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Nov 18, 2018 22:11:59 GMT
'Sit down you disloyal twerp'... I know it was Nicholas Soames but that was funny
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2,762 posts
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Post by n1david on Dec 10, 2018 17:05:36 GMT
Well, it's all going splendidly well, isn't it?
Just as well there's nothing else significant going on in the UK to which politicians could be devoting some time.
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Post by Someone in a tree on Dec 10, 2018 18:29:14 GMT
This afternoon Theresa Mayhem secured another week or two of her PM’s salary
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 19:14:49 GMT
As well as Noel Edmonds (see above), another reason that we are watching a car crash is our electoral system. First past the post with a winner takes all outcome is supposed to provide ‘strong government’, which has until recently merely meant that parties without a vote majority were able to govern as though they had. Now that FPTP is failing to even do that, requiring coalitions and compromise, our ill equipped political system is collapsing in on itself.
More logical systems, where votes relate to seats, result in that need for consensus and negotiation; not getting all that you want being the inevitable outcome. The referendum was seen by some as winner takes all but that would never be a sustainable outcome so the EU, being used to consensus etc. has helped to turn the division that the vote showed into an agreement that reflects that division. They have that experience which our system has withheld from us and the outcome of negotiations shows that - not substantially favouring one grouping or another.
Politicians and many (most?) voters cannot cope with that, however, and that lack of experience in this type of politics dooms us to disaster. That the first coalition in living memory saw both participants vilified and one nearly destroyed by voters just helped to confirm to politicians that compromise would be their downfall. The horrifying percentage who would support a no deal Brexit is further proof; they would wilfully destroy the country to make a political point rather than acknowledge their weak mandate.
So here we are, no compromise, disaster beckons.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 19:32:16 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Dec 10, 2018 19:32:16 GMT
I feel sorry for Mother Theresa on this one, she is truly a rabbit in the headlights on this, overwhelmingly the people who vote Tory want to Brexit however the businesses that bank role the Tories want to remain. so hearing this news today, my first thought was that Mother Theresa will be gone by the end of the week, with the 48 votes triggered, however that would mean her replacement will still have to get their hands dirty and Boris doesn't do detail, nor get his hands dirty.
I am no Tory but agree with Amber Rudd and Nicky Morgan that there is no appetite of an hard Brexit in parliament, which is a good thing.
As Harold Wilson said "24 hours is a long time in politics", at the moment a day is an eternity.
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2,762 posts
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 19:39:31 GMT
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Post by n1david on Dec 10, 2018 19:39:31 GMT
I think it's likely that if we had a different electoral system, the Tories would have split by now into an anti-Europe and a pro-Europe grouping (who would operate in alliance for most of the time). The same split exists in Labour but to a lesser extent. Where Brexit has absolutely floundered is that we have no mechanism for cooperation across party boundaries and structuring political debate in any other way. Labour is seeking a General Election but that is meaningless when both parties have a similar position on Brexit - negotiated deal - leaving voters who want either extreme, a no-deal exit or to remain, nowhere to go.
I can't help feeling that a major realignment of British politics is underway, but it's difficult to see how that can be accomplished in our current electoral system. It's true that other electoral systems have their flaws too - see the rise of National Rally in France, or Five Star and the League in Italy. But what we have now isn't working, and it's difficult to know how it can move forward without cracking completely.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 19:40:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 19:40:01 GMT
What a mess this all is, but I suppose the biggest political decisions of our lifetime should be the most discussed, debated and scrutinised. Regardless of my political leanings, you have to hand it to Teresa May for getting this far in the process and still holding into the top job.
It’s all a BBC drama in the making - there’s something very Shakespearean about it all, with the plots, backstabbing, a lone woman at the top of her own house of cards. I don’t know that anyone else could have done better (out of the current lot) and no one is actually saying who could.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 19:47:41 GMT
I think it's likely that if we had a different electoral system, the Tories would have split by now into an anti-Europe and a pro-Europe grouping (who would operate in alliance for most of the time). The same split exists in Labour but to a lesser extent. Where Brexit has absolutely floundered is that we have no mechanism for cooperation across party boundaries and structuring political debate in any other way. Labour is seeking a General Election but that is meaningless when both parties have a similar position on Brexit - negotiated deal - leaving voters who want either extreme, a no-deal exit or to remain, nowhere to go. I can't help feeling that a major realignment of British politics is underway, but it's difficult to see how that can be accomplished in our current electoral system. It's true that other electoral systems have their flaws too - see the rise of National Rally in France, or Five Star and the League But what we have now isn't working, and it's difficult to know how it can move forward without cracking completely. The outcomes have been somewhat softened in other countries by the need for coalition or run off elections which do not favour extremists. My fear is that the UK system is the most prone to electing majority governments which do not have the support of a majority in the country. It’s still hypothetical but a populist demagogue with barely 30 percent of the vote could be thus elected and have sweeping powers.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 20:17:17 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 20:17:17 GMT
What a mess this all is, but I suppose the biggest political decisions of our lifetime should be the most discussed, debated and scrutinised. Regardless of my political leanings, you have to hand it to Teresa May for getting this far in the process and still holding into the top job. It’s all a BBC drama in the making - there’s something very Shakespearean about it all, with the plots, backstabbing, a lone woman at the top of her own house of cards. I don’t know that anyone else could have done better (out of the current lot) and no one is actually saying who could. In agreement here. I'm in no way tory but have to recognise what she is doing given the very sh*t hand she's been dealt and the depleting, lack of support from the spineless 'politicians' around her. Whilst being in the Remain camp at heart she still had the balls to stand forward to navigate Britain through this mess of a situation; a role not many would so easily take but would happily, verbosely criticise. Part of me secretly wonders (and hopes) if she's actually martyring herself; deliberately making a hash of it, getting us into an impassible situation where the only solution would be abandon all notion of leaving the EU.
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1,863 posts
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 20:56:00 GMT
Post by NeilVHughes on Dec 10, 2018 20:56:00 GMT
There has to be some reason she clings on to the role, any sane person would have resigned ages ago and left it to the perpetrators of one of the biggest cons against the British public for their own personal ambitions to sort out.
She either has an immense sense of self belief that she can deliver, or more scarily she believes that if she resigns the void could potentially tear apart our Parliamentary Democracy.
We are technically in a civil war which fortunately at the moment is being contained within the walls of Westminster.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 21:01:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 21:01:34 GMT
I doubt she’s trying to sabotage it. I’m a Labour Remainer but - like May - recognise that the majority want to leave and as a believer in democracy accept the result.
Watching everything that’s happening she’s having to deal with the EU trying to get as much as they can out of us, whilst trying to stop a coup in her own party and having to deal with the career politicians (from all Brexit stances) trying to get her job.
The first thing everyone needs to accept is Brexit is going to happen (and it amazes me people still deny it). Secondly we need to decide if we like the deal on the table or not and tell our MPs how we want them to vote.
I wouldn’t be surprised if May agreed to postpone the vote in order to do a bit of staged PR and have the EU reinforce the idea that they are not prepared to re-negotiate the deal.
We can’t have it all ways and if we don’t like the deal, hard Brexit it is. When I read the reports of what’s happening it’s like some politicians think we can leave and dictate the terms and that the EU should just do as we say.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 21:13:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 21:13:40 GMT
There has to be some reason she clings on to the role, any sane person would have resigned ages ago and left it to the perpetrators of one of the biggest cons against the British public for their own personal ambitions to sort out. She either has an immense sense of self belief that she can deliver, or more scarily she believes that if she resigns the void could potentially tear apart our Parliamentary Democracy. We are technically in a civil war which fortunately at the moment is being contained within the walls of Westminster. She clearly knows where the bodies are buried and postponed the vote so she can dig up a few skeletons as proof There’s been two coups in recent months and to survive both indicates that whilst her party are divided on Brexit, they don’t necessarily think she’s wrong to lead the party and Brexit. Yet.
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Brexit
Dec 10, 2018 22:33:08 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 22:33:08 GMT
I always wonder why people want a job like PM, they can make much more money in the private sector or even having a public role.
Thew nearer we get to 29th March with no deal, the bigger the panic is likely to be. No doubt the people with money are already making provision as a No Deal Brexit or Catweazle Corbyn getting power.
Even the mace got waved around.
I think 28th or 29th January is a date to keep in mind as that is the last date an election can be called before Brexit Day on 29th March.
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Post by kathryn on Dec 10, 2018 22:41:38 GMT
Lest we forget, Theresa May was directly responsible for xenophobic scaremongering during her time as Home Secretary that fuelled the Brexit vote. She is responsible for the ‘hostile environment’ that has seen British citizens wrongly deported. Her own red lines for the Brexit negotiations and decision to call a general election have led to this impossible situation where she simply can’t deliver on all the promises she has made to various different groups.
She has never had a good grasp of the detail, and has always gone for the strong-sounding tabloid-pleasing headline over policies of real substance that can actually work. She was the same as Home Secretary.
She is good at putting her head down and battering it against brick walls until they fall down and she gets what she wants. But she does that when anyone else would look at a map and just walk around the wall - or even better, arrange to have the key to the door in the wall so they can walk right through.
She is not a good Prime Minister and she does not deserve your sympathy. A hell of a lot of her problems are of her own making.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 22:55:35 GMT
People may not have liked Mrs Thatcher but I'd have backed her to get a better deal than Theresa May.
Theresa's biggest mistake was calling an election last year and losing her majority, the Tory party haven't forgotten about that.
There could well be a split in both major parties or a new centralist party created. I just hope the unpleasant very hard left and right wing extremists don't gain mass support.
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