2,452 posts
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Post by theatremadness on Jul 13, 2016 21:53:26 GMT
I'm off to watch Passport to Pimlico. It's practically a guide on how to do it. There was recently a workshop of a musical version of Passport to Pimlico. Good timing, perhaps!!
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209 posts
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Brexit
Jul 13, 2016 22:04:18 GMT
Post by Flim Flam on Jul 13, 2016 22:04:18 GMT
I'm off to watch Passport to Pimlico. It's practically a guide on how to do it. There was recently a workshop of a musical version of Passport to Pimlico. Good timing, perhaps!! Or maybe they knew something...
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Brexit
Jul 13, 2016 22:08:35 GMT
Post by Coated on Jul 13, 2016 22:08:35 GMT
If she wanted a token Boris, why not invent a new post of special-bumbling-about secretary where he won't do too much harm? Or go all the way and ask Prince Phillip to do a stint as foreign secretary
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 4:43:40 GMT
Boris is there to keep people distracted when the government is readying itself for a burst of activity. Don't be surprised if he turns up with a squirty flower and a collapsing car.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 6:42:17 GMT
"Everything's different nothing's changed maybe only slightly rearranged" - or even "Good things get better bad get worse, wait I think I meant that in reverse!" With thanks to SS.
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4,369 posts
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Brexit
Jul 14, 2016 8:21:12 GMT
Post by Michael on Jul 14, 2016 8:21:12 GMT
^Sheridan Smith is such a clever lyricist, isn't she. Of course. How could I have ever assumed that SS meant Stephen Schwartz?
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2,702 posts
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Brexit
Jul 14, 2016 9:21:56 GMT
Post by viserys on Jul 14, 2016 9:21:56 GMT
I think Boris got the Foreign Office job so that he wouldn't be in the country much. On the other hand, given his reputation with ladies, I'm expecting to see lines of pregnant foreign women forming at the Family Division courts in London in about 8 months time. I also think we should now double, perhaps triple our intended budget spending on Trident. We may need it... Actually another Brit I spoke to yesterday made exactly the same joke about spawing blonde chubby sproglets all over Europe. I am a woman, but I don't find the man attractive in any way. What am I missing? On a more serious note, I do have a Brexit-related question: It has always been my dream and ambition to one day retire to ye olde fair isle and buy a place somewhere near London to potter about in my garden and take a train into London once a week or so to see shows. I figure that Brexit wouldn't affect these plans or would it? I mean, if people from Non-EU-Countries can buy property in Britain all the time, I should be able to as an EU-citizen? The big dream of the Brexiters to ban all them smelly foreigners would only affect people looking to rent a place / look for a job? I'm not sure what the difference is or how it all works.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 9:47:36 GMT
^Sheridan Smith is such a clever lyricist, isn't she. Of course. How could I have ever assumed that SS meant Stephen Schwartz? Sorry about the confusion - of course it's neither Smith nor Schwartz - it's that famous premiere tunesmith S'theresa S'may.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 10:20:10 GMT
On a more serious note, I do have a Brexit-related question: It has always been my dream and ambition to one day retire to ye olde fair isle and buy a place somewhere near London to potter about in my garden and take a train into London once a week or so to see shows. I figure that Brexit wouldn't affect these plans or would it? I mean, if people from Non-EU-Countries can buy property in Britain all the time, I should be able to as an EU-citizen? The big dream of the Brexiters to ban all them smelly foreigners would only affect people looking to rent a place / look for a job? I'm not sure what the difference is or how it all works. At this stage I don't think anyone knows. My personal feeling is all that stuff about keeping out the filthy foreigners was just bluster to appeal to the innate British xenophobia. I can't see it ever working, for three reasons. Firstly, free movement is a mandatory part of the deal to get favourable trading conditions with the EU, and given that Britain needs trade with other countries more than they need trade with Britain we're not going to be in a position to dictate terms. Secondly, a large part of Britain's seasonal work depends on cheap labour from eastern Europe, because UK residents simply can't afford to work only half a year if they have to live the other half in an expensive country like ours. Finally, despite what the likes of UKIP say, free movement has been how the world has always worked and the idea of restricting movement is very much a product of wartime paranoia and no civilised society should tolerate it. I can't see UKIP's beliefs staying popular forever, and I'm sure it won't be too long before history views them the same way we view every other extremist hate group, not least of all because that history will be written by the younger people who were more in favour of remaining in the EU.
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Brexit
Jul 14, 2016 14:04:52 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 14:04:52 GMT
Stephen Crabb resigns in a huff, "in best interests of my family". What did Theresa offer him? Fisheries?
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Brexit
Jul 14, 2016 14:15:16 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 14:15:16 GMT
Sajid Javid is Communities Secretary! Theresa has a wicked sense of humour, to appoint her most obnoxious colleague to this role.
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5,062 posts
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Brexit
Jul 14, 2016 14:52:32 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Jul 14, 2016 14:52:32 GMT
Boris is there to keep people distracted when the government is readying itself for a burst of activity. Don't be surprised if he turns up with a squirty flower and a collapsing car. The problem is when you remove the red nose and make up, you still have bobo the clown.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 16:18:41 GMT
free movement has been how the world has always worked and the idea of restricting movement is very much a product of wartime paranoia and no civilised society should tolerate it What I do object to is the gangs of beggars and pickpockets, plus victims like those expecting to be "cleaners" who end up as prostitutes, being flown in by the scum of their own nations, heavily indebted and without protection. We can't say to the ring-leaders (when we catch them, and we do, our police are amazing) "Out and STAY OUT." That means we can't break a cycle of human suffering. That I want solved, and if it means leaving an EU too blind / deaf / brainless / greedy to see the hurt their idealism causes, then so be it. That's simply not true. EU regulations make provision for exclusion of individuals deemed to be a risk to society, with grounds including drugs offences, sexual offences, money laundering, racial hatred, and so on. They don't even need to have been convicted of a crime in Britain, or in some cases anywhere: if they're considered enough of a risk they can be excluded or expelled. Being in the EU gives us access to criminal records from other countries so we're in a good position to judge. UKIP and the tabloids have painted a picture of free movement meaning completely unrestricted movement and poor Britain left helpless to stop a flood of murderers and rapists flocking to our country, but that's not true and it has never been true. The people who create laws know what they're doing. Most people have no idea how much work is involved in creating laws and regulations. Deciding what you want the law to do is the easy bit. Most of the work is in identifying what you don't want it to do—the ways in which the system could be subverted for malicious purposes—and closing off those ways so the law will actually work in practice. People who create laws are never idealists. They're realists. They have to be, because they know that every law is going to be continually probed and tested by people looking for weaknesses that can be exploited for criminal gain.
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Post by d'James on Jul 14, 2016 16:32:56 GMT
Thank you thematthew. I thought it was like that. I googled it and the articles are all about post-Brexit now apart from one from the recent Euros tournament about France banning some UK supporters.
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Brexit
Jul 14, 2016 17:58:35 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 17:58:35 GMT
I had to go to the Home Office (website, not in person) to get information. Given the current turnover of staff in the government, if I'd gone to the Home Office in person I'd probably have been given a job.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 20:40:45 GMT
That's simply not true. EU regulations make provision for exclusion of individuals deemed to be a risk to society, with grounds including drugs offences, sexual offences, money laundering, racial hatred, and so on. They don't even need to have been convicted of a crime in Britain, or in some cases anywhere: if they're considered enough of a risk they can be excluded or expelled. Being in the EU gives us access to criminal records from other countries so we're in a good position to judge. UKIP and the tabloids have painted a picture of free movement meaning completely unrestricted movement and poor Britain left helpless to stop a flood of murderers and rapists flocking to our country, but that's not true and it has never been true. Good points, and intellectually, I'm 100% sure you are correct, TheMatthew. What is interesting, then is that the tabloids and UKIP do have us believe different, based on the stories that they run. Accepting you are right, how do you square those stories with your correct (and I don't doubt them for a second, I really don't, that isn't sarcasm, I appreciate the research)analysis? Leaving out the obvious media spin on 'facts getting in the way of a good story,' of course, as the quality of debate on this board is way beyond that . I don't know why the tabloids are so anti-Europe, but I suspect it's down to the knowledge that people just love to believe their problems are somebody else's fault. It's a very appealing idea: you deserve a better life than you have, and the reason you don't have it is because of Them. And the EU is a useful Them to blame. After all, the objective of a newspaper isn't to tell people the truth but to keep selling the paper, and you keep selling papers by making people feel like they're the true right-thinkers in a world of fools, not by embarrassing them by telling them that their opinions are wrong. The idea of the incompetent and malicious EU screwing everything up for poor Britain has never made sense to me, so I started following up on all these stories about how the EU was stacking the deck against Britain or how they were creating stupid regulations that any idiot could see were crazy. And it turns out that they're all misrepresentations deliberately twisted to allow Britons to sneer at stupid Johnny Foreigner. As an example of how the press misrepresents things, consider the harmonisation of mains electricity. (This is one of the first examples I looked at in depth for myself, as it happened around the time I first had Internet access at home.) Britain uses 240V and most of the mainland uses 220V, so in 1994 the EU harmonised the standard voltage as 230V. Cue newspaper scare stories about how the bureaucrats were going to force everyone in Britain to replace all their electrical appliances and build new power stations, along with reports about how the Europeans were too stupid to realise that nobody in Europe actually uses 230V. Let's all laugh at the idiot foreigners who are too dumb to notice the obvious flaw in their idea. Except that wasn't what was going on. Although our mains supply is nominally 240V it actually varies quite a bit as the load varies. Our mains supply is officially defined as 240V ± 6%, so the supply you receive can vary from 226V to 254V and all electrical equipment sold in Britain has to be able to operate correctly and safely over that range. A similar situation existed in countries like France and Germany, where the mains voltage was defined as 220V ± 6% so the supply there can vary from 207V to 233V. Having different standards for each country creates a problem for manufacturers because they need to test their products against each country's standards, and even when several countries have equivalent standards the manufacturer still has to test for each country. They can't test against one country's standard and then claim to have passed all the others. Each country wants a test against their own standard, not against another one that happens to look the same. So the EU's idea was to have one standard that manufacturers could test against for the whole of Europe, and the way they did it was to change the standard voltage for the EU to be 230V ± 10%. (They actually did it in two stages, but this is where we are now.) 230V ± 10% covers a range from 207V to 253V, which neatly spans the old UK range, the old French range, the old German range, and so on. It's important to understand that nobody's mains supply has actually changed and all the generating equipment is the same as it has always been: in the UK we still get a supply that hovers within 6% of 240V and in France they still get a supply that hovers around 220V. What has changed is that now there's one standard for manufacturers that covers the whole of Europe, which makes electrical equipment much cheaper and makes it possible to buy an electrical appliance in any EU country and use it in any other and know that it will work. There is no downside to this regulation and in fact we've all gained a considerable benefit from it, but you wouldn't think so from the way it was reported in Britain. Instead of showing how it would make electrical appliances cheaper and safer our media tried to make it look as though the stupid foreigners were interfering in things they didn't understand. Tried, and succeeded. This happens all the time. Whenever you see a story about some stupid EU regulation it almost always turns out that the regulation is actually extremely sensible and the people who came up with it did actually know what they were doing, but it's been reported in a way that allows the British to imagine they're smarter than the idiot Europeans. It infuriates me that the British fall for this nonsense time after time, because you'd think it would eventually occur to people that if the EU's actions were as stupid as we keep being told they are then someone other than the British would be able to spot the stupidity, and as that doesn't happen perhaps we're being lied to. But selling papers is more important than telling the truth.
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Post by d'James on Jul 14, 2016 20:52:29 GMT
I wish you'd had a big platform to be heard in the lead-up to the referendum, thematthew. That's what we needed to be hearing, although some people would switch off at that level of detail. Also, dismissing experts and facts seemed to be easy to do.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 21:00:15 GMT
Newspapers are owned by individuals, more often than not they use that power to promote their own interests. As people who follow theatre we all know how powerful narratives are and that they can affect us emotionally in a way that overcomes the logic of them not being real. The power that being able to do that to a mass audience is one of the greatest powers that can be wielded in a nation and, I would suggest, more powerful than any political party or movement.
You would have thought that the internet might have reduced that but it is, in many ways, worse. There are a number of narratives being constructed and broadcast through it but these tend to harmonise as the 'echo chamber' effect means that people tend to spread ideas coming from each other and from a limited number of powerful sources. It's the same on all parts of the political spectrum but the nature of the internet is such that the fringes are made more powerful than their numbers would allow for in the real world.
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2,761 posts
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Post by n1david on Jul 14, 2016 21:24:40 GMT
Good points, and intellectually, I'm 100% sure you are correct, TheMatthew. What is interesting, then is that the tabloids and UKIP do have us believe different, based on the stories that they run. Accepting you are right, how do you square those stories with your correct (and I don't doubt them for a second, I really don't, that isn't sarcasm, I appreciate the research)analysis? Leaving out the obvious media spin on 'facts getting in the way of a good story,' of course, as the quality of debate on this board is way beyond that . I don't know why the tabloids are so anti-Europe, but I suspect it's down to the knowledge that people just love to believe their problems are somebody else's fault. It's a very appealing idea: you deserve a better life than you have, and the reason you don't have it is because of Them. And the EU is a useful Them to blame. After all, the objective of a newspaper isn't to tell people the truth but to keep selling the paper, and you keep selling papers by making people feel like they're the true right-thinkers in a world of fools, not by embarrassing them by telling them that their opinions are wrong. I posted earlier in this thread that in an opinion poll two days before the referendum, 43% of the electorate believed that Turkey was on a fast-track route into the EU. That simply wasn't true. Thus, there is an obvious problem here about people not understanding the facts, or the facts are not being presented to them. I do think that the broadcast media, which is legally bound to show "balance", was part of the problem in this referendum because they didn't challenge enough on facts. There was too many programmes where one side got to say X, and the other side got to say NotX, and there wasn't enough actual journalism to actually state whether X or NotX was true because the broadcasters were concerned that challenging either side in this way would have been seen as biased. Like TheMatthew, I don't know why most parts of the mass media went big on Brexit. I can think of one case where the media could have done a better job. There were many complaints during the campaign that EU migration was the cause of limited access to welfare resources such as GP appointments or school places, but there's an alternative point of view that says this was due to the government's austerity measures reducing funds for welfare services. My liberal bias tends towards the latter perspective, but I'm honest enough to say that I don't know the truth of the matter. I'd have liked the BBC or ITV to really analyse this - look at a selection of GP practices, look at the growth in patient numbers and look at the impact of austerity measures and present enough facts that viewers could make up their own mind. But I'm sure if they'd come up with a definitive conclusion, they'd have been accused of biased reporting. Newspapers, however, are not bound by requirements for balanced reporting. And certainly for papers of the Right (I'm thinking Dacre/Murdoch), it's in their interest to deflect public dissatisfaction from the Government in power to another cause. And without anyone in the broadcast media challenging on the basis of fact, we are left in a swirl of unverified opinion.
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Post by d'James on Jul 14, 2016 21:30:36 GMT
Are there any stats about how Doctors voted? All the ones I know (A&E Doctor's and GPs) voted Remain.
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1,500 posts
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Post by Steve on Jul 14, 2016 22:39:16 GMT
Yes, The Sun and the Daily Mail are particularly infuriating.
"The Sun" is easier to explain. Rupert Murdoch hates the EU because they don't listen to him, and don't do what he wants, whereas he has always had the ear of every Prime Minister. He actually said this. He is hands on with "The Sun" and ordered them to go Brexit.
"The Daily Mail" is actually owned by Jonathan Harmsworth, aka Lord Rothermere, a pro-EU friend of David Cameron. It was Lord Rothermere who gave Geordie Greig, at the "Mail on Sunday" the go-ahead to push hard for REMAIN, after Dacre ordered him to go Brexit. Since Greig reports to both Dacre and Rothermere, this was one instance where Rothermere chose to overrule Dacre.
But the contract Dacre signed with "The Daily Mail" has given him full editorial control for decades now. And he sells papers hand over fist at a time when print media is in such decline that papers like "The Independent" have shuttered. Lord Rothermere is far too greedy to interfere with Dacre, given that Dacre is the lynchpin of his empire.
The reason why Dacre's anti-immigrant, anti-EU, women-in-dresses-only twisted reactionary fury sells is alluded to above. It provides it's readers with the theatre of their lives, an easy narrative where their every discontent can be attributed to monstrous villains, and they can play the aggrieved heroes. The EU is like Spectre, the perfect monolithic villain to be demonised. Immigrants are an invading horde coming to steal what's yours. Plucky little England (very little) is overrun by namby pamby Chamberlains, like Cameron and Blair, who sell us Little Englanders out to Blofeld (Juncker) and his minions like Rosa Klebb (Nicola Sturgeon).
It is utterly ridiculous, but these horrible papers actually succeed in giving people a sense of mission and purpose, excitement and drama, that is so sick and twisted it would be funny if only it wasn't so serious.
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5,062 posts
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Brexit
Jul 14, 2016 22:52:04 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Jul 14, 2016 22:52:04 GMT
Newspaper lie, what they don't know they make up, I remember reading an article in a respectable tabloid and thinking this is rubbish, where did they get that from, they have exaggerated that completely, no one did that - I was in prime pole position to comment as I was a professional observer, the day before I was on that jury panel in a big case, I was shocked how much a tabloid, what they didn't know, they simple made up, what didn't read great - they sexed up, what actually they did say as fact, the press sensationised. All during the trial no journalists were present in court.
As we saw in the recent reporting of the Chilcott report, the press suffered from collective amnesia and never apologised as the ones who stoked the fire, for Britain to go to war, for instance - as the great Charles Kennedy had the audacity to be anti war, one of the tabloids I don't need to say which one portrayed Charles Kennedy as a cobra and a person who can spray his vile venom at a great distant, he never recovered from that, his drinking took a turn for the worst. So yes the press hand are as dirty as Tony Blairs and MI6.
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1,500 posts
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Brexit
Jul 14, 2016 23:12:43 GMT
Post by Steve on Jul 14, 2016 23:12:43 GMT
You would have thought that the internet might have reduced that but it is, in many ways, worse. There are a number of narratives being constructed and broadcast through it but these tend to harmonise as the 'echo chamber' effect means that people tend to spread ideas coming from each other and from a limited number of powerful sources. Yes, the BBC are mandated to present both sides of every issue. Issues which are put on the news agenda by "The Daily Mail" and "The Sun." By presenting both sides of said issue (the liars cast the truthtellers as liars, the truthtellers say the same back), the public may conclude that somewhere in the middle is about right. The fact that the issue (eg a "swarm" of immigrants "swamping" the NHS) was put on the agenda by "The Daily Mail" in the first place means the mere fact the issue has been covered by the BBC serves their agenda. The papers are insidiously powerful, and twist our public discourse. The PM of the day just ends up making a Faustian deal, and peddles whatever Eurosceptic nonsense will continue to secure their "endorsement." David Cameron ended up hoist on his own petard. After toeing the Daily Mail's Eurosceptic line for years, in the Referendum, he was unable to turn the tide of negative feelings against the EU that he himself had played a part in stirring up.
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433 posts
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Post by DuchessConstance on Jul 15, 2016 2:15:10 GMT
Are there any stats about how Doctors voted? All the ones I know (A&E Doctor's and GPs) voted Remain. Can't speak for the other 11 but David Tennant was pro-Remain.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2016 8:01:23 GMT
I'm not a heavyweight intellectual and struggled with a lot of the EU issues. I though the "I" newspaper gave a reasonable pros and cons over the weeks before Brexit, and I am lucky enough to have a partner who has a better depth of knowledge than me to discuss this stuff with. But I still feel that it shouldn't have been decided by referendum.
Having recently see the Chichester production of An Enemy of the People it seems that that is as relevant now as it ever was. I have listened (mostly silently, as I don't court aggravation and with some people there is just no point) conversations about "those immigrants" taking out housing and benefits with a quiet despair.
Having been brought up in the era of Maggie Thatcher (nasty Norman was my local MP at the time) I find it amazing how short people's memories are. We used to have a rented housing stock which wasn't just for the poorest in society. When I grew up living in a council house didn't have the stigma is has now. Immigration isn't to blame for our housing crisis, it the systematic selling off of affordable rented housing with no plans to replace it. The immigrants who come to the UK to work honestly in our health service and other jobs suffer just as much as anybody else.
I am not very knowledgeable about schools, but surely there has to be something seriously wrong in government planning? They have 5 years notice of the numbers of children being born here: isn't that sufficient time to work out what school provisions are necessary? Or is this just a naïve opinion?
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