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Post by willsharp on Jun 18, 2016 1:22:07 GMT
I would like to hear some opinions about discrimination in theatre. I am a writer (I've changed my name here for publicity reasons) with a number of shows currently running in London, and it so happens that at the moment all the actors in my productions are white. This hasn't been intentional, we have auditioned actors of different races, but there aren't many parts in the shows and the ratio of black and asian to white actors in London is heavily weighted towards white, so the best actors for the parts available turned out to be white.
This situation bothers me, and I believe is a result of many problems such as a lack of arts funding for schools in poorer, predominantly black and asian areas, and the prohibitively high cost of attending drama school, which leads to a wealthy, mostly white acting community.
However the situation is that we gave the parts to the best actors who turned up.
My team and I are now under considerable pressure from our producers to cast an actor from an ethnic minority group in our next casting, but this bothers me as well, because the implication is that we must cast based on ethnicity and not on merit. This does not seem like the solution to me. It seems like discrimination. Positive discrimination, but discrimination all the same.
I might feel differently if I believed the producers' motives were purely to encourage diversity and equality, but there has been no call to cast a gay, lesbian or transgender actor, despite the fact that coincidentally there are no LGBT persons in any of the casts either. I believe this attitude is unfortunately in keeping with the rest of the industry, because an audience can't see if a person is gay. I think the producers, like a lot of white people in the industry who are championing diversity, are concerned only with appearing diverse in order to tick the boxes and not get any bad press. This is why I am torn and would like to hear what the community has to say on the issue.
Is the right thing to do to cast a black or asian actor, even if they don't end up being the best person for the job? Or should I stick to my guns and insist we cast based entirely on merit, even if this does end up meaning another entirely white cast? Of course I would hope in a free and fair casting we might end up with a diverse cast based on merit, but that didn't happen last time and it's possible it might not happen again.
Will
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Post by talkstageytome on Jun 18, 2016 4:48:09 GMT
I'd find it very hard to believe that out of everyone you audition, the best actors all end up being white every time. As you've stated that that was the case when casting your previous shows then perhaps cast your net a bit wider next time if possible?
I certainly don't have the answer to your 'dilemma' but given what I know about the talent in the uk, you should have no trouble finding a perfect cast for your show and casting diversely at the same time. Of course no one should be cast purely based on their race, but I think all would agree that the idea that the best actors you see are all white is unlikely.
This is a debate that has been ongoing for years and quite frankly I think it's one that someone else could answer for you much more eloquently than me...
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jun 18, 2016 5:28:17 GMT
I might feel differently if I believed the producers' motives were purely to encourage diversity and equality, but there has been no call to cast a gay, lesbian or transgender actor, despite the fact that coincidentally there are no LGBT persons in any of the casts either. You sure about that? Have you asked them all? |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 18, 2016 6:07:59 GMT
Just so you know, I have also chosen another name so as to hide my identity.
You raise some really good points. Have you sat down and discussed this with your producers?
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jun 18, 2016 6:42:12 GMT
Doesn't authenticity come into play at some point though?
Casting white people over black/asian because they're technically better actors is one thing (although I find that staggering and not very believable) but even if it's true what's the point? You might be using what you think are "better" actors but if you're creating a world that the audience doesn't recognise then you're kind of wasting your time.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2016 7:43:27 GMT
The Suicide at the National - the only thing the creatives where told HAD to be in the production was a black or Asian lead character, other than that they had free reign
Not just theatre this happens, when I worked at jobcentre there was an internal ad for a job that said white men need not apply!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2016 7:57:25 GMT
I would like to hear some opinions about discrimination in theatre. I am a writer (I've changed my name here for publicity reasons) with a number of shows currently running in London, and it so happens that at the moment all the actors in my productions are white. This hasn't been intentional, we have auditioned actors of different races, but there aren't many parts in the shows and the ratio of black and asian to white actors in London is heavily weighted towards white, so the best actors for the parts available turned out to be white. This situation bothers me, and I believe is a result of many problems such as a lack of arts funding for schools in poorer, predominantly black and asian areas, and the prohibitively high cost of attending drama school, which leads to a wealthy, mostly white acting community. However the situation is that we gave the parts to the best actors who turned up. My team and I are now under considerable pressure from our producers to cast an actor from an ethnic minority group in our next casting, but this bothers me as well, because the implication is that we must cast based on ethnicity and not on merit. This does not seem like the solution to me. It seems like discrimination. Positive discrimination, but discrimination all the same. I might feel differently if I believed the producers' motives were purely to encourage diversity and equality, but there has been no call to cast a gay, lesbian or transgender actor, despite the fact that coincidentally there are no LGBT persons in any of the casts either. I believe this attitude is unfortunately in keeping with the rest of the industry, because an audience can't see if a person is gay. I think the producers, like a lot of white people in the industry who are championing diversity, are concerned only with appearing diverse in order to tick the boxes and not get any bad press. This is why I am torn and would like to hear what the community has to say on the issue. Is the right thing to do to cast a black or asian actor, even if they don't end up being the best person for the job? Or should I stick to my guns and insist we cast based entirely on merit, even if this does end up meaning another entirely white cast? Of course I would hope in a free and fair casting we might end up with a diverse cast based on merit, but that didn't happen last time and it's possible it might not happen again. Will GOD Wait until 1730 I am back from work I will post on this matter then Thank you for your patience Only think I ask is that you respond to my post Thanks X |
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Post by infofreako on Jun 18, 2016 7:58:45 GMT
Its one ive puzzled over at times. The pool of available people to audition is definitely part of it and whilst i think it would be nice to see more diverse casting it has to be more than just a tick box exercise. It should be all about the best person for the role getting it
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2016 9:06:54 GMT
I am not in the industry, so I may be talking rubbish.
It seems to me that the problem may arise because of the practice of casting for individual roles in a standalone show. There are real benefits to having a diverse cast in a production (for example, The Threepenny Opera now at the NT) because it reflects the actual community and because each actor and character brings a different tone or aspect to the production, whereas with non-diverse casting there can be an audience perception that the individualities of the actors have been hammered flat to achieve a preconceived, standardised, two-dimensional idea of the show. If each part is cast in isolation, looking for the "best" actor for each part, it is obviously pot luck what ethnic or disability or heritage or sexuality or gender identity mix you end up with. But if you start casting with the premise that you desire a diverse acting company, then you are looking for the "best" combination of actors for the production and it would be much less likely that you wouuld end up with a non-diverse cast. Perhaps ideally, theatres would have a diverse pool of associated actors, and most casting for most shows would be from that pool.
As I say, these are my amateur thoughts. But, as an audience member, I most enjoy theatre with truly diverse casting because I can relax and feel comfortable that the casting process hasn't excluded "non-standard" performers, and can also delight and revel in the individualities of different people.
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Post by DuchessConstance on Jun 18, 2016 9:31:52 GMT
I am in the exact same position and yes, sometimes I've wound up with all-white casts and felt awful about it, but there is such a breadth of non-white acting talent. You just have to be willing to look outside of traditional casting routes. A lot of CDs will cast exclusively from a small handful of agencies. Those agencies source their actors from a small number of avenues. Going down those rigid routes cuts yourself off from 95% of the actors out there.
I'm not accusing the op of anything since I don't know about his casting practices, but I can't count how many times I've seen people bemoaning the lack of diverse talent when I know for a fact their casting calls were severely restricted and never got near most actors.
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Post by willsharp on Jun 18, 2016 9:51:16 GMT
Doesn't authenticity come into play at some point though? Casting white people over black/asian because they're technically better actors is one thing (although I find that staggering and not very believable) but even if it's true what's the point? You might be using what you think are "better" actors but if you're creating a world that the audience doesn't recognise then you're kind of wasting your time. Actually without giving too much detail about my shows away, due the to time period and setting most of the characters would logically be white. With the exception of a few smaller roles any diverse casting would probably be colourblind. I am curious to know, would you support an all white cast in the interests of authenticity? |
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Post by willsharp on Jun 18, 2016 9:57:14 GMT
I might feel differently if I believed the producers' motives were purely to encourage diversity and equality, but there has been no call to cast a gay, lesbian or transgender actor, despite the fact that coincidentally there are no LGBT persons in any of the casts either. You sure about that? Have you asked them all? No, admittedly I'm not sure, but I believe all the cast members are in heterosexual relationships. As I say, they are not large casts so this isn't particularly remarkable. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jun 18, 2016 10:17:04 GMT
Doesn't authenticity come into play at some point though? Casting white people over black/asian because they're technically better actors is one thing (although I find that staggering and not very believable) but even if it's true what's the point? You might be using what you think are "better" actors but if you're creating a world that the audience doesn't recognise then you're kind of wasting your time. Actually without giving too much detail about my shows away, due the to time period and setting most of the characters would logically be white. With the exception of a few smaller roles any diverse casting would probably be colourblind. I am curious to know, would you support an all white cast in the interests of authenticity? So you're writing plays about heterosexual white people set in a time when society was mainly white and casting heterosexual white actors to play in them? To answer your question I think I'd be ok with it if I was able to see something else you'd written which had black/Asian characters. Or something where it wasn't specified or relevant. I suppose I'm struggling to understand your dilemma, because the solution is in your own hands. Literally. |
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Post by ShoesForRent on Jun 18, 2016 11:27:30 GMT
Doesn't authenticity come into play at some point though? Casting white people over black/asian because they're technically better actors is one thing (although I find that staggering and not very believable) but even if it's true what's the point? You might be using what you think are "better" actors but if you're creating a world that the audience doesn't recognise then you're kind of wasting your time. Actually without giving too much detail about my shows away, due the to time period and setting most of the characters would logically be white. With the exception of a few smaller roles any diverse casting would probably be colourblind. I am curious to know, would you support an all white cast in the interests of authenticity? While it isn't my intention to boast Hamilton's horns anymore than it already is boasted- you really needn't look further than it. One of the smartest things they did in that production was to deliberately cast POC in white roles. True- there it is a political statement- to tell the story of America's founding by the people who are often shunned from the tale. But color-blind casting, in pieces that don't tell the story of POC, is really about creating suspension of belief within the audience, and isn't that what plays/musicals are at the end of the day? You tell the audience that this person is this character, and I feel if there isn't a specific reference in the text to the color of the skin (or any physical feature really- like casting a short person and then referencing how tall they are in the text etc.) of the character, then why shouldn't the audience, for 1.5 hours believe that person is the character? As for the talent- I'm sure it's there... maybe it's about working with different agencies, or looking for it in less conventional places... But you might just be the one to "discover" one of the next great talents that way- because s/he wouldn't be able to pass the conventional route the way you described in your original post (because of coming from bad neighborhoods/ poverty/ no drama school etc.) Anyway that's just my two cents- from a very naive youngster who is not in the business (sadly- maybe someday though  ) |
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Post by Dawnstar on Jun 18, 2016 11:59:24 GMT
Actually without giving too much detail about my shows away, due the to time period and setting most of the characters would logically be white. With the exception of a few smaller roles any diverse casting would probably be colourblind. I am curious to know, would you support an all white cast in the interests of authenticity? If the characters are supposed to be white then I don't see why you wouldn't cast white actors. But then I am not a fan of colourblind casting. I find it extremely distracting in historically-set pieces when a character who must have been white at the time is cadt with a non-white actor. Even more confusing is when supposed-to-be families are cadt with a mix of ethnicities. I saw an opera last year where out of a family of 6 children 2 were white, 2 black & 2 Asian. Talk about biologically impossible! (I may need to move this post to the unpopular opinions thread.) |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2016 12:19:20 GMT
Regarding sexuality... frankly, who the hell gives a stuff what any actor gets up to in their private lives, provided it is legal and harms nobody? It isn't a reason to deny anyone a job - and horrific if it is used as a tool for that, but as an actual attribute for being cast, it frankly isn't anyone's business, is it? It is an issue with literal-minded audiences. And gender and gender identity even more so. |
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Post by showgirl on Jun 18, 2016 15:14:06 GMT
Actually without giving too much detail about my shows away, due the to time period and setting most of the characters would logically be white. With the exception of a few smaller roles any diverse casting would probably be colourblind. I am curious to know, would you support an all white cast in the interests of authenticity? If the characters are supposed to be white then I don't see why you wouldn't cast white actors. But then I am not a fan of colourblind casting. I find it extremely distracting in historically-set pieces when a character who must have been white at the time is cadt with a non-white actor. Even more confusing is when supposed-to-be families are cadt with a mix of ethnicities. I saw an opera last year where out of a family of 6 children 2 were white, 2 black & 2 Asian. Talk about biologically impossible! (I may need to move this post to the unpopular opinions thread.) I am glad Dawnstar has been brave enough to say what I have been thinking, as I saw 2 plays last year where colourblind casting distracted me and cost credibility, and in precisely the above situations. The first was a historical play where the character could only have been white and the second a modern play where twin sisters were played by a white and a non-white actor, but the audience had no idea whether this was significant or simply a casting decision. By all means cast on merit in other situations, but put the play first. |
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Post by 49thand8th on Jun 18, 2016 15:28:56 GMT
Doesn't authenticity come into play at some point though? Casting white people over black/asian because they're technically better actors is one thing (although I find that staggering and not very believable) but even if it's true what's the point? You might be using what you think are "better" actors but if you're creating a world that the audience doesn't recognise then you're kind of wasting your time. Actually without giving too much detail about my shows away, due the to time period and setting most of the characters would logically be white. With the exception of a few smaller roles any diverse casting would probably be colourblind. I am curious to know, would you support an all white cast in the interests of authenticity? Not really, unless their whiteness was part of the plot... (Caveat: Not in the business; Asian American) I'm going to use the current revival of She Loves Me, which I've seen and it's delightful and the cast is incredibly strong and I didn't find a weak link in it. However... I came to realize this was the first entirely white Broadway show I'd seen in maybe a couple of years, not through deliberate avoidance on my part but because that's just how it is here. It's not that easy to find an all-white anything (except creative team; ha). And don't give me the "it's Hungary in the 1930s" excuse, because this show exists in a bit of a bubble, is about silly romance, and Les Miz certainly didn't fall apart as soon as they cast Shanice and Lea Salonga. That's not to say I could think of a person I'd take out of the current She Loves Me cast to replace with someone to meet some goofy quota, but I kept wondering two things: (a) how many POC actors saw that it was historically pretty-white Roundabout and avoided auditioning anyway, assuming they wouldn't even get cast?
(b) how many great POC actors would've been just as good or better in this incredibly cute and charming production that we were missing out on? (When I got home, I fixated on the idea of Aaron Albano as Arpad, and now I can't get it out of my head.) That said, I do in some ways understand the "authenticity" argument (especially with the weird example given above of twins who don't match), but it gets tired because how many creative, theatrical works out there are written by white people and take place in historically white settings? Keep up the authenticity thing and the POC actors will be restricted to shows that only take place in a limited number of settings and time periods. Think about what you're missing out on when you are looking at a non-Hamilton show with, say, three sisters who look like Soo, Cephas-Jones, and Goldsberry but complaining they don't resemble each other. Unless there's a deliberate reference to a character's ethnicity, what's the problem? Maybe the distraction thing is something you need to work on, not something casting directors need to work on around you. I should probably leave this thread seeing as I'm American/more unfamiliar with UK theatre than I'd like to me, and also not being white I'm just going to get mad. So this link is my parting gift: www.playbill.com/article/asian-actors-tell-stories-of-prejudice-in-myyellowfacestory-project |
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Post by ShoesForRent on Jun 18, 2016 15:33:43 GMT
In the case of familial relations I understand (especially somewhere like Les Mis where Young Eponine/ Cossete are played by an actress of one race and their adult counterpart by another) as the audience might need to keep track of who is related to whom.
But in a period piece, if the subject isn't race (such as slavery) I don't see a reason why they can't cast color-blindly- they are actors telling a story and creating a fictional universe- surly the audience can suspense SOME belief and go with it.
EDIT: YES to all of 49th post above!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2016 16:18:06 GMT
First: people who decry positive discrimination and claim just to want the best person for their job are usually - subconsciously or otherwise - stating an implicit belief that the best person for the job is going to be a white person. I can't tell you how many times I had this conversation with regards to #OscarsSoWhite, but that is - not always through conscious decision - what things boiled down to. Second: if your casting directors are failing to get you a diverse cast when you're writing your plays for a non-race-specific cast, then how about getting a little pro-active and writing, say, a few Asian characters? Talk to non-white people, learn about how they think and speak and any cultural things you wouldn't pick up on by being a (presumably) white man. You'll have to put some real work in to ensure you're not resorting to stereotypes or tokenism, but if you're getting your shows put on in London, then you have real power here. Use it for good. Third: historically accurate =/= all white. It's an extension of the idea that history books are only written by the winners - they're also written by the people who had the means to write them. (In a lot of cases, we're talking clergymen with no idea of how normal people lived!) Just because certain regions and eras appear to have a predominantly white history, this does not mean there were only white people in this period, it just means the books were being written by the white people about the white people. Different skin tones have been mixing for centuries. Don't accept the whitewashing as stone cold fact, dig deeper and find the real people who were really there. medievalpoc.tumblr.com is a great place to start questioning the idea that history is a milky-white place. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2016 16:20:39 GMT
I am glad Dawnstar has been brave enough to say what I have been thinking, as I saw 2 plays last year where colourblind casting distracted me and cost credibility, and in precisely the above situations. The first was a historical play where the character could only have been white and the second a modern play where twin sisters were played by a white and a non-white actor, but the audience had no idea whether this was significant or simply a casting decision. By all means cast on merit in other situations, but put the play first. In the case of family relationships I agree. I've no time for the far-too-often-presented argument that you're not supposed to see skin colour at all, because I've met a couple of black people who were very proud of the fact that their heritage showed in their colour and would be deeply offended at the idea that it was a thing Not To Be Seen. I think in the future people will look back on that sort of mustn't-see-it overcompensation with an attitude of "you thought you were helping but you really, really weren't". But when it comes to historical accuracy it's a different matter, not least of all because the world wasn't as segregated as people think. In the past free movement was the rule, and it's really only in the past 100 years that the idea of "ours, not yours" has become disturbingly popular. Prior to that, for all practical purposes national borders barely existed and people went wherever they thought there was the greatest demand for their skills and where they could make the best living. There were a considerable number of people of African descent living in Tudor England—as free people, not slaves—and there are records of black soldiers in Britain in Roman times. If anything it's an all-white cast that's historically inaccurate. If you want accuracy you should be grabbing your cast from most of two continents. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2016 11:14:40 GMT
To people who get upset at colourblind castings - view on Jesus Christ Superstar? Or is it less distressing when people are white?
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Post by DuchessConstance on Jun 19, 2016 14:20:45 GMT
The problem is, most shows can realistically only audition .1% of all the actors who apply. The top maybe 90% of casting calls are only viewable to maybe 10% of actors, purely because CDs just don't have the manpower to go through thousands of CVs.
So when you say "the best people who auditioned got the job," that may be true, but realistically you were only looking at a tiny percentage of the actors out there to begin with. And non-white actors are shut out of that. If people opened their castings a bit more or went outside traditional casting routes, they might find even better actors.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2016 14:44:17 GMT
I have to say that the first time I saw Les Mis I found myself a little confused. Young Eponine was played by a blonde, Caucasian little girl, then suddenly she transformed into the gorgeously talented Alexia Khadime, who happens to be black. This is the only view point I have on the matter. I'm all for blind casting, I don't give a hoot what race the actor is unless it's pivotal to the role. But changing a character's ethnicity half way through a show is just stunningly confusing. My friend had to actually tell me they were the same character.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2016 14:53:41 GMT
Credibility is strained every time Holly Cunningham regenerates in Hollyoaks.
And as for Tony and Tom Archer, and Pip Archer, don't get me started.
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