2,452 posts
|
Post by theatremadness on Aug 26, 2019 17:07:44 GMT
It's interesting because in shows like Angels in America or La Cage, is everyone gay who plays gay characters in these? And in Fiddler - Does the person playing Tevye have to be jewish? I can tell you not all of the daughters in Fiddler are jewish and no one seems to be saying anything about that. What's interesting is one can be jewish but not look stereotypically jewish just like someone can be gay but not look stereotypically gay. It's different in a show like West Side Story or in the Heights when the character is Spanish and thus probably should look Spanish so the audience gets it. Oh my goodness. Apologies, but I don’t know how we can be going through it again with yet another post. This is why this conversation is going round in circles. No. Not all Jewish roles HAVE to be played by Jewish people. Not all gay roles have to be played by gay people. This is NOT what the debate is about!!!! Anyway, Fiddler in Chichester: Tevye not Jewish, Golde was. There is cultural representation. Fiddler in London right now: Andy Nyman, Tevye, is Jewish. There is your cultural representation. It is not about being exclusively Jewish in Jewish productions, just cultural representation either on or off stage. I don’t know any other way to explain that!! Apologies for my frustration being pointed at you showtoones, it’s not intentional or personal, but I feel it’s so important that people realise this is not at the heart of the discussion, yet most people seem to think it is without reading what’s already been posted.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 17:12:02 GMT
I'm fed up of Cameron casting people to play the Bishop of Digne in Les Mis who aren't even clergy. And I'm pretty sure Whoopi wasn't a Nun. For goodness sake this isn’t the same at all. And if you genuinely think it is then you’re also part of the problem.
|
|
1,427 posts
|
Post by showtoones on Aug 26, 2019 17:19:46 GMT
It's interesting because in shows like Angels in America or La Cage, is everyone gay who plays gay characters in these? And in Fiddler - Does the person playing Tevye have to be jewish? I can tell you not all of the daughters in Fiddler are jewish and no one seems to be saying anything about that. What's interesting is one can be jewish but not look stereotypically jewish just like someone can be gay but not look stereotypically gay. It's different in a show like West Side Story or in the Heights when the character is Spanish and thus probably should look Spanish so the audience gets it. Oh my goodness. Apologies, but I don’t know how we can be going through it again with yet another post. This is why this conversation is going round in circles. No. Not all Jewish roles HAVE to be played by Jewish people. Not all gay roles have to be played by gay people. This is NOT what the debate is about!!!! Anyway, Fiddler in Chichester: Tevye not Jewish, Golde was. There is cultural representation. Fiddler in London right now: Andy Nyman, Tevye, is Jewish. There is your cultural representation. It is not about being exclusively Jewish in Jewish productions, just cultural representation either on or off stage. I don’t know any other way to explain that!! Apologies for my frustration being pointed at you showtoones, it’s not intentional or personal, but I feel it’s so important that people realise this is not at the heart of the discussion, yet most people seem to think it is without reading what’s already been posted. Totally understand and I was not coming at you either. This is a discussion board and we are discussing. It's an interesting debate and one that will never be solved but I'm glad to be part of the conversation.
|
|
|
Post by intoanewlife on Aug 26, 2019 17:21:10 GMT
There is a big difference between 'wanting' something or thinking you 'deserve' something and actually getting it. Yes it'd be nice if they'd have done that (and tbh it is pretty silly that they didn't considering the material) but does that then give someone the right to publicly shame them for not doing something that probably never even crossed their minds in the first place? I understand, but the thing is, is that why should it have to be up for this much debate? Why should any minority who wants or thinks they deserve fair cultural representation? And why should they not get it? And why had it not already been thought of? So you know what - yes. Yes, shame on the producers for producing a show that is as inherently Jewish as Fiddler On The Roof is and not thinking to involve anyone Jewish, if that happened to be the case. You're right...shame on the producers...but now it's shame on the whole production and everyone who works on it. Now everyone is tarnished, instead of them of saying something earlier and maybe...just maybe...having something done about the situation. But lets face it in the end, is that 'really' what they wanted to achieve?
|
|
2,452 posts
|
Post by theatremadness on Aug 26, 2019 17:31:00 GMT
I understand, but the thing is, is that why should it have to be up for this much debate? Why should any minority who wants or thinks they deserve fair cultural representation? And why should they not get it? And why had it not already been thought of? So you know what - yes. Yes, shame on the producers for producing a show that is as inherently Jewish as Fiddler On The Roof is and not thinking to involve anyone Jewish, if that happened to be the case. You're right...shame on the producers...but now it's shame on the whole production and everyone who works on it. Now everyone is tarnished, instead of them of saying something earlier and maybe...just maybe...having something done about the situation. But lets face it in the end, is that 'really' what they wanted to achieve? That is a fair and understandable concern, but outside of this board and a few conversations on twitter, I personally don't see that being the case. The only people who believe this to be true, are those who been debating "against" (for want of a better word) the original letter to The Stage. Not a single name of any actor, director, choreographer, lighting designer, set designer, sound designer etc has ever, ever been mentioned as part of this debate. Any direct contact made on social media has been to Selladoor and Selladoor only (including the managing directors of the company). I understand how tagging the show can appear to be dragging into the debate those who are not directly involved, maybe that wasn't necessary, but for the UK premier of this musical, it is a big deal, but I don't think it's tarnished the production or harmed its success. Maybe, there will be reviewers who mention this debate in their review, maybe not, that shall be seen, but I don't think anyone has been derogatory to anyone and tarnished everyone involved, as the only attention has been directed to, as I mentioned, the producers.
|
|
|
Post by intoanewlife on Aug 26, 2019 17:38:58 GMT
You're right...shame on the producers...but now it's shame on the whole production and everyone who works on it. Now everyone is tarnished, instead of them of saying something earlier and maybe...just maybe...having something done about the situation. But lets face it in the end, is that 'really' what they wanted to achieve? That is a fair and understandable concern, but outside of this board and a few conversations on twitter, I personally don't see that being the case. The only people who believe this to be true, are those who been debating "against" (for want of a better word) the original letter to The Stage. Not a single name of any actor, director, choreographer, lighting designer, set designer, sound designer etc has ever, ever been mentioned as part of this debate. Any direct contact made on social media has been to Selladoor and Selladoor only (including the managing directors of the company). I understand how tagging the show can appear to be dragging into the debate those who are not directly involved, maybe that wasn't necessary, but for the UK premier of this musical, it is a big deal, but I don't think it's tarnished the production or harmed its success. Maybe, there will be reviewers who mention this debate in their review, maybe not, that shall be seen, but I don't think anyone has been derogatory to anyone and tarnished everyone involved, as the only attention has been directed to, as I mentioned, the producers. Tell that to the entire cast and crew of The Great Comet... Also (and I'm really not picking on you personally I promise lol) why not contact the producers with your (very valid) concerns IN PRIVATE! Why is it always made public via social media for the whole world to see?
|
|
2,452 posts
|
Post by theatremadness on Aug 26, 2019 17:47:29 GMT
That is a fair and understandable concern, but outside of this board and a few conversations on twitter, I personally don't see that being the case. The only people who believe this to be true, are those who been debating "against" (for want of a better word) the original letter to The Stage. Not a single name of any actor, director, choreographer, lighting designer, set designer, sound designer etc has ever, ever been mentioned as part of this debate. Any direct contact made on social media has been to Selladoor and Selladoor only (including the managing directors of the company). I understand how tagging the show can appear to be dragging into the debate those who are not directly involved, maybe that wasn't necessary, but for the UK premier of this musical, it is a big deal, but I don't think it's tarnished the production or harmed its success. Maybe, there will be reviewers who mention this debate in their review, maybe not, that shall be seen, but I don't think anyone has been derogatory to anyone and tarnished everyone involved, as the only attention has been directed to, as I mentioned, the producers. Tell that to the entire cast and crew of The Great Comet... Also (and I'm really not picking on you personally I promise lol) why not contact the producers with your (very valid) concerns IN PRIVATE! Why is it always made public via social media for the whole world to see? I understand why you may be drawn to make that comparison, but personally I don't think it's on the same scale, or is it really the same principal. Haha, don't worry, I've never once thought you were picking on me, I know we're just having a conversation so I hope you've never felt I've been picking on you either! I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe doing it in private makes it feel like there is a shame to asking, the Jewish people should be discreetly inserted somewhere into this production quietly and without any fuss. Well maybe they wanted to make a fuss. This is not the first debate to be aired via social media and will not be the last, I don't have to tell anyone that. But it opens a dialogue, it opens conversation, it makes people think, it asks for answers, and sometimes, it's the only way to get them.
|
|
211 posts
|
Post by sprampster on Aug 26, 2019 17:54:48 GMT
Just to change tact anyone here see the original March of the Falsettos at the Albery ??
|
|
|
Post by intoanewlife on Aug 26, 2019 18:11:18 GMT
Tell that to the entire cast and crew of The Great Comet... Also (and I'm really not picking on you personally I promise lol) why not contact the producers with your (very valid) concerns IN PRIVATE! Why is it always made public via social media for the whole world to see? I understand why you may be drawn to make that comparison, but personally I don't think it's on the same scale, or is it really the same principal. Haha, don't worry, I've never once thought you were picking on me, I know we're just having a conversation so I hope you've never felt I've been picking on you either! I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe doing it in private makes it feel like there is a shame to asking, the Jewish people should be discreetly inserted somewhere into this production quietly and without any fuss. Well maybe they wanted to make a fuss. This is not the first debate to be aired via social media and will not be the last, I don't have to tell anyone that. But it opens a dialogue, it opens conversation, it makes people think, it asks for answers, and sometimes, it's the only way to get them. It was the same thing in both cases, a producer who made a mistake (some would say by casting said person in the first place) then the whole company paid for it.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 18:13:23 GMT
why not contact the producers with your (very valid) concerns IN PRIVATE! Why is it always made public via social media for the whole world to see? Precisely. That’s just one of the better ways this could have been handled. It might also have brought about real change, encouraged this production team to champion the signatories’ wider campaign, and been a positive story rather than a whiny-sounding one (as well as a potentially embarrassing one that damages their cause if it turns out there actually was a Jewish cultural consultant involved in the show). Some people here seem to think anyone having a negative response to this letter is A Bad Person against diversity and greater representation. Have you ever thought some of us could just be annoyed about this low-evidenced, rather bullying approach squandering opportunities for positive engagement with an important issue that deserves debate?
|
|
|
Post by intoanewlife on Aug 26, 2019 18:30:30 GMT
why not contact the producers with your (very valid) concerns IN PRIVATE! Why is it always made public via social media for the whole world to see? Precisely. That’s just one of the better ways this could have been handled. It might also have brought about real change, encouraged this production team to champion the signatories’ wider campaign, and been a positive story rather than a whiny-sounding one (as well as a potentially embarrassing one that damages their cause if it turns out there actually was a Jewish cultural consultant involved in the show). Some people here seem to think anyone having a negative response to this letter is A Bad Person against diversity and greater representation. Have you ever thought some of us could just be annoyed about this low-evidenced, rather bullying approach squandering opportunities for positive engagement with an important issue that deserves debate? We seem to live in a time where the only way people think they can achieve anything is by public shaming someone regardless of the fact that they may or may not have an actual grievance. I'd have had FAR more (actually 'some') respect for this person if he'd have stepped up early on in the process and inspired/created some real change instead of (as you point out) kicking a hornets nest with little to no thought for the consequences and looking like a bitter 'whiny little *****'.
|
|
1,907 posts
|
Post by sf on Aug 26, 2019 18:38:41 GMT
I'd have had FAR more (actually 'some') respect for this person if he'd have stepped up early on in the process and inspired/created some real change instead of (as you point out) kicking a hornets nest with little to no thought for the consequences and looking like a bitter 'whiny little *****'. "This person" isn't just one person. The letter has more than twenty signatories, not all of whom by any means are on social media. And it's hardly the first time a group of people have lodged a protest by writing an open letter to a newspaper.
|
|
4,458 posts
|
Post by poster J on Aug 26, 2019 18:43:22 GMT
Maybe doing it in private makes it feel like there is a shame to asking, the Jewish people should be discreetly inserted somewhere into this production quietly and without any fuss. Well maybe they wanted to make a fuss. This is not the first debate to be aired via social media and will not be the last, I don't have to tell anyone that. But it opens a dialogue, it opens conversation, it makes people think, it asks for answers, and sometimes, it's the only way to get them. Doing it in private first actually gives more impetus to the complaint, because it gives the recipient a chance to respond honestly without the inevitable defensiveness that results from being called out in public. If the private response is inadequate then by all means take it public, but sometimes taking the high road of dealing with something quietly and without fuss will lead to more gain in the long run. And it is a lot about timing as well - these concerns can and should have been raised months ago, much earlier in the process, when something could have been done to rectify the situation for this production. Why that didn't happen, I don't know, but the unfortunate timing of the complaint being made public is going to create an impression that the authors are trying to harm the production itself (and by corollary those involved) even if that is not actually their intention, so it detracts from their message. I don't think their message is wrong or unimportant, but I do think it is badly phrased and badly timed, which has made this into a mess it shouldn't have been, and rather taken away from what they are trying to say.
|
|
|
Post by intoanewlife on Aug 26, 2019 18:44:22 GMT
I'd have had FAR more (actually 'some') respect for this person if he'd have stepped up early on in the process and inspired/created some real change instead of (as you point out) kicking a hornets nest with little to no thought for the consequences and looking like a bitter 'whiny little *****'. "This person" isn't just one person. The letter has more than twenty signatories, not all of whom by any means are on social media. And it's hardly the first time a group of people have lodged a protest by writing an open letter to a newspaper. My point still stands. Next time I have a problem at work I'll just write an open letter to the Daily Mail instead of just going to talk to my boss about it. As a gay man I also wouldn't care if I went to see a production of My Beautiful Laundrette if there were no gays involved in the production, but that's just me x
|
|
211 posts
|
Post by sprampster on Aug 26, 2019 18:53:30 GMT
It saddens me that people think William Finn would allow a company to stage this classic if he didn’t think it was in safe hands
Plus so may people jumping on band wagons when not really even knowing the show and it’s history
I for one am so looking forward to it and believe it’s in very safe hands
|
|
|
Post by Seriously on Aug 26, 2019 19:10:12 GMT
I don't remember people asking how many of the Nuns in "The Sound of Music" were Catholic. Or how many of the Klansmen in "Jerry Springer" were bigots.
|
|
1,907 posts
|
Post by sf on Aug 26, 2019 19:40:13 GMT
Sorry, no. An open letter is a valid form of protest. It's a form of address with a very long history, and using an open letter to put a conversation into the public sphere is a defendable choice - particularly in this case, given that we're in a cultural/political moment in which our main party of opposition has been very publicly embroiled in a row about anti-Semitism for at least a couple of years, racism is moving inexorably towards the political mainstream (if it isn't there already), and in which the current US President repeatedly pushes anti-Semitic stereotypes. We're at a point where this particular minority must be feeling considerable pressure; in that context, it's hardly surprising to see a group of Jewish artists take a public stand in an attempt to open up a conversation about representation.
Next time I have a problem at work I'll just write an open letter to the Daily Mail instead of just going to talk to my boss about it.
Not the same thing at all, but of course you know that.
|
|
|
Post by intoanewlife on Aug 26, 2019 19:56:37 GMT
Sorry, no. An open letter is a valid form of protest. It's a form of address with a very long history, and using an open letter to put a conversation into the public sphere is a defendable choice - particularly in this case, given that we're in a cultural/political moment in which our main party of opposition has been very publicly embroiled in a row about anti-Semitism for at least a couple of years, racism is moving inexorably towards the political mainstream (if it isn't there already), and in which the current US President repeatedly pushes anti-Semitic stereotypes. We're at a point where this particular minority must be feeling considerable pressure; in that context, it's hardly surprising to see a group of Jewish artists take a public stand in an attempt to open up a conversation about representation.
Next time I have a problem at work I'll just write an open letter to the Daily Mail instead of just going to talk to my boss about it.
Not the same thing at all, but of course you know that.
It's a very complex issue that we all have different views on. Mine = The whole 'anti' anything movement seems to require complicit worship in every way or you are given a label and usually a bad one. I don't believe not agreeing with what is going on in Israel makes me anti-Semitic, nor do I believe it makes certain members of the Labour Party anti-Semitic either. I am allowed to have an opinion of a subject that you don't agree with without being labelled. I don't hate EVERY Jewish person on earth because of it, honestly until today I can't remember the last time I even thought of anything to do with Jewish people and frankly I doubt think they are on most people's radar very often either. As a gay man I am apparently supposed to be outraged every single time a trans person clicks their heels and decides something that wasn't offensive yesterday is offensive today. But you know what I don't, nor am I even going to pretend I am. This whole daily outrage about the next thing that's in the press for a hot minute spearheaded by social media is literally sending everyone on the planet crazy and it needs to stop. If you have a complaint, make it to the person you have a complaint against and deal with it x
|
|
1,210 posts
|
Post by musicalmarge on Aug 27, 2019 9:24:20 GMT
"This person" isn't just one person. The letter has more than twenty signatories, not all of whom by any means are on social media. And it's hardly the first time a group of people have lodged a protest by writing an open letter to a newspaper. My point still stands. Next time I have a problem at work I'll just write an open letter to the Daily Mail instead of just going to talk to my boss about it. As a gay man I also wouldn't care if I went to see a production of My Beautiful Laundrette if there were no gays involved in the production, but that's just me x THIS!!!
|
|
1,907 posts
|
Post by sf on Aug 27, 2019 9:47:32 GMT
I can't remember the last time I even thought of anything to do with Jewish people and frankly I doubt think they are on most people's radar very often either. ...and given the recent - documented - rise in anti-Semitism, that's part of the reason a public conversation about representation and identity is so necessary.
|
|
|
Post by missthelma on Aug 27, 2019 10:03:36 GMT
It saddens me that people think William Finn would allow a company to stage this classic if he didn’t think it was in safe hands Plus so may people jumping on band wagons when not really even knowing the show and it’s history I for one am so looking forward to it and believe it’s in very safe hands From the beginning of this saga I have wondered about what seems to be the erasure of the creators of this piece William Finn and James Lapine who are both alive, well and presumably able to engage in discourse about their work. I assumed (and I know we should never assume ) that rather like Sondheim being here for Company and Jason Robert Brown for Bridges that they would be present for some or all of the process. Even if they are not physically present they can Skype, FaceTime etc etc, or be contacted fairly easily.
If they are around and involved, does that 'solve' this? And if they're not, why the f*** aren't they and doesn't that bolster the case of the letter writers 100%?
People seem to be missing the point of how much representation matters, and how important it is to have someone around who can say 'no' to an idea that is unacceptable. Also how difficult that no can be if you are a lone voice. Had the initial letter stuck to that conceit it might have worked better, introducing the casting question just opened them up for (deliberate?) misinterpretation and mockery. This has meant that the far more important point has not been fully acknowledged
|
|
1,907 posts
|
Post by sf on Aug 27, 2019 10:17:26 GMT
If they are around and involved, does that 'solve' this? And if they're not, why the f*** aren't they and doesn't that bolster the case of the letter writers 100%? If they aren't around - and I've no idea whether they are, although the Selladoor statement did say they approved the casting - it may simply be because the first act premiered 38 years ago, the second act premiered 29 years ago, and they both live on the other side of the Atlantic.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 10:19:04 GMT
Have to say I am now wondering if the elephant in the room is that this whole saga is much more interesting than the actual show.
I tried (for the second time) yesterday to listen to the cast recording on Apple Music and failed (again) to get through it as found it so dull. Not a hummable melody in sight! Now I know nothing of the story - though from the music I was getting waves of American angst, a bit like Fun Home and Next To Normal - and don't doubt that perhaps live it all comes together and is a passable evening.
But yet another musical, where the music isn't the soaring star - makes me sad! Quite clearly though, this is niche and would not succeed on the West End.
(A quick look at the seating plans it also isn't selling that well - perhaps the 'letter' was actually written by The Other Palace to boost interest. I jest of course..... #conspiracytheory)
|
|
1,907 posts
|
Post by sf on Aug 27, 2019 11:04:02 GMT
Not a hummable melody in sight! Four Jews In A Room Bitching Thrill of First Love I'm Breaking Down The Games I Play I Never Wanted To Love You Father To Son Welcome To Falsettoland What More Can I Say? Unlikely Lovers You Gotta Die Sometime What Would I Do? - all of them music I've been humming for the better part of thirty years. It's an idiosyncratic score, but - to me - there's plenty of memorable music in it.
|
|
|
Post by xanady on Aug 27, 2019 11:31:40 GMT
Agree with sf,it is a very memorable score...me and the fam are booked for this Friday...really hope it succeeds and sending big love to the cast/creatives and Selladoor who are trying so hard to promote lesser known works such as Amélie and Little Miss Sunshine as well as more populist fare such as Fame.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 11:39:28 GMT
Indeed, I hear you; could have done with an IMHO when I said it wasn't hummable/memorable as of course it's all subjective.
But it certainly isn't mainstream and I can understand why it has taken so long to make it to the UK.
The one thing that DOES tempt me to see it however is the cast, who's MT calibre no-one could deny.
|
|
1,037 posts
|
Post by jgblunners on Aug 27, 2019 11:53:41 GMT
Indeed, I hear you; could have done with an IMHO when I said it wasn't hummable/memorable as of course it's all subjective. But it certainly isn't mainstream and I can understand why it has taken so long to make it to the UK. The one thing that DOES tempt me to see it however is the cast, who's MT calibre no-one could deny. I think this score sits with Sondheim in that it all falls into place when you actually watch the show. The new Broadway cast recording is excellent but I could only stand a couple of tracks from it until I saw the show (via one of *those* recordings) - now I have many songs and sections of the show that I enjoy listening to because I know the context. Act Two contains a beautiful quartet but unfortunately it's a pretty spoilerific song so I won't recommend listening to it if you don't already know the plot of the show.
|
|
4,038 posts
|
Post by kathryn on Aug 27, 2019 18:47:50 GMT
If they are around and involved, does that 'solve' this? And if they're not, why the f*** aren't they and doesn't that bolster the case of the letter writers 100%? If they aren't around - and I've no idea whether they are, although the Selladoor statement did say they approved the casting - it may simply be because the first act premiered 38 years ago, the second act premiered 29 years ago, and they both live on the other side of the Atlantic. The letter writers may well have a valid point about Jewish representation in general, but this production is an odd choice to make a stand about for precisely this reason. It’s old enough that - bar a radical re-imagining (which I don’t believe the producers have a track record of) - how the characters are represented in the production, and how they should be performed, is going to be pretty set, at least in broad terms. The original Jewish creators are still alive and would presumably have withdrawn the rights if they had a problem with the approach the production is taking. One of the reasons why it does look like they are focused on casting more than anything else is that - in advance of the production actually being seen by anyone - there’s nothing else *to* focus on. Casting is the only part of the process that is publicised before a show opens. I did run across this tweet exchange from before the start of rehearsals: This suggests that the use of shoes on the poster was seen as an insensitive holocaust reference, which may go some way to explaining the concern. Clearly the producers could have been far more proactive in assessing concerns publicly prior to the start of the rehearsal process. But, equally clearly, there is no way that whoever is running the Falsettos Twitter account could have answered those questions in a productive way. Their response - an invitation to an early preview and meet the creative team - was not received well.
|
|
2,452 posts
|
Post by theatremadness on Aug 27, 2019 20:51:09 GMT
If they aren't around - and I've no idea whether they are, although the Selladoor statement did say they approved the casting - it may simply be because the first act premiered 38 years ago, the second act premiered 29 years ago, and they both live on the other side of the Atlantic. The letter writers may well have a valid point about Jewish representation in general, but this production is an odd choice to make a stand about for precisely this reason. I couldn't say for sure, but I think it's possibly because this is the UK Premiere of Falsettos as we know it, so would have been a good chance to exercise some cultural representation, which is something I am almost certain took place when the UK first saw Fiddler on The Roof, and as is being done currently for Tom Stoppard's new play Leopoldstadt.
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 27, 2019 20:59:30 GMT
William Finn is heading to the UK shortly. He is certainly expected to see Little Miss Sunshine in Leicester - so I would imagine he will also touch base with Falsettos.
|
|