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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2018 21:01:23 GMT
What about Idina Menzel? I feel that she's pretty much the only true MT performer with legit cross-over appeal. Kristen Chenoweth also, maybe?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2018 21:04:49 GMT
What about Idina Menzel? I feel that she's pretty much the only true MT performer with legit cross-over appeal. Kristen Chenoweth also, maybe? Both are probably more known for their TV work - especially in the UK (outside of theatre fans). Idina for Glee and Kristin for Pushing Daisies... and both only had brief spells of popularity. That said - and fair play to them - they can pull in a crowd in London pretty well. I’m still amazed Idina played Wembley!
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Post by kathryn on Oct 14, 2018 23:13:45 GMT
I think musical theatre fame is different in the UK to the US, primarily because the US shows do TV advertising, so the general public are more likely to have seen performer names associated with starring roles even if they are not actually theatregoers. A bit like with movie stars - you can end up recognising them and being aware of their roles from the promo tours they do - chat shows, newspaper and magazine interviews, etc - even if you never see their films.
But of course, that doesn’t make you a box office draw. Just because people know who you are it doesn’t mean they’re willing to pay for tickets to see you in a show. The main use for fame is getting people’s attention for long enough for you to tell them what the show/film is about and try to convince them to see it.
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Post by mrbarnaby on Oct 15, 2018 5:19:38 GMT
Didn't the TheatreBoard's other doctor declare only a few days ago that he has no idea what a Cate Blanchett is? Even international movie star fame is relative. ... another not other... There are more than two TheateBoarders with a PhD on here. (And I’ve heard of both.) Another? That doesn’t make sense. I’m going to add a PhD to my profile name now too!
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Post by lonlad on Oct 15, 2018 7:23:29 GMT
"Pattie?" Heaven help us, the woman really is doomed, on this board and by SS. Comparing her to Cher, as he did, is irrelevant and, in that context, impolite. The fact is PATTI is one of the very few remaining Broadway stars, so you might have thought SS would honour that fact and not denigrate it -- and you would be wrong. Cher is a phenomenon who belongs to an entirely different show biz ecosystem. Apples and oranges.
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Post by kathryn on Oct 15, 2018 9:29:49 GMT
Nah it's also just become a running joke in musical theatre that Miss Patti will come get you if your phone is on. Like a musical theatre bogey man. But more fabulous Indeed. I've even seen several Broadway actors (musical and non) interviewed when the subject of audiences and mobile phones comes up and they're referenced going "The Full LuPone". Not a name my arse, Simon Sondwho! To be serious for a moment, what we're talking about is the outcome of the movement from broadcast entertainment - in the sense of everyone seeing the same thing at the same time - to 'narrowcast' entertainment, which has been happening gradually since the roll out of cable TV, through the digital revolution, and sped up exponentially by the internet. Essentially everyone is living in their own little filter-bubble these days of their own interests, and you can narrowly target people by their interest with information and entertainment, instead of broadcasting it to everyone in order to make sure the 2% of people who are really interested see it. It's great for advertising, in that you can make sure you target all of your spending at the people most likely to actually buy a ticket. The downside is that people who are not already interested in something may never discover an interest in it. The risk is that your market will shrink, not grow, as everyone is targeting the same 2% of the population and not attracting people from outside of that niche. Patti is of course famous - nototrious, even - among theatre fans, while being virtually unheard of by anyone who is not in the theatre bubble. It's not a reflection on her talent as a performer, it's a by-product of the modern entertainment ecosystem. Similarly there are reality TV stars and Youtubers I have never heard of who have millions of avid fans.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 11:21:00 GMT
Lots of interesting comments here.
I do agree with Sondheim, Patti is not a household name and is only known within the theatre bubble (I am a big Patti fan btw, mainly due to Sunset Boulevard).
So he is correct re the wider public. But my God he was brave (?/stupid) to say this in front of her so blatantly when they are both there to promote the show. Bet she was FUMING! (And she IS a draw for many MT fans).
I was actually listening live and my jaw almost dropped to the floor.
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Post by kathryn on Oct 15, 2018 12:03:02 GMT
I get what Sondheim means to an extent - especially if I apply the same logic to the West End. When did we last have a legitimate west end star become a huge box office draw? We’ve had certain names build up a fanbase that enables them to branch out into doing their own solo work, but their names alone don’t guarantee a ticket sale hit. I assume this is what Sondheim meant anyway. The biggest I can think of here is Kerry Ellis and Rachel Tucker, but both have struggled to find roles post Wicked and both have had to rely on Wicked’s fandom to branch out as solo acts (which is ultimately solo work that doesn’t actually help them find a new audience). Even if we apply the same here to Company’s cast, the leading lady is one of the least known, despite extensive work in musical theatre over the last decade. That all said - there’s a huge lack of new musicals that allow a person to build up any sort of name. Even Kerry Ellis has had to rely on big name revivals post Wicked to really create whatever west end stardom she has (including a trip back to Wicked itself). I accept producers have a responsibility to get bums on seats and if that means getting someone well known in the show, then so be it. But I feel like musical theatre circles could do more to support its own community more - there’s a huge pool of talented, capable performers that can do the material justice... if the material is good enough. I've brought this up before, and I know it provokes very strong feelings of alarm among certain board members, but I think it bears repeating: a the moment the most recognisable British musical theatre performer among the wider general public - certainly among the dreaded millennial demographic - is probably James Corden. And that's because he performs musical theatre regularly on the telly/internet with famous people. If we had a British equivalent of Glee, or a MT casting show still on the telly, that would be different. But we don't.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 12:09:42 GMT
Millennial aren't allowed opinions though. Because we're all teenagers. Despite you know, teenagers not really being Millennial anymore and most of us pushing, well ironically around Bobbie's age in Company.
Also, many would argue that say, a Game of Thrones Cast member would be recognisable and sell tickets. But just ask the director of Foxfinder how well that went (actually don't she'll bite your head off but that's another story)
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Post by kathryn on Oct 15, 2018 12:19:17 GMT
Millennial aren't allowed opinions though. Because we're all teenagers. Despite you know, teenagers not really being Millennial anymore and most of us pushing, well ironically around Bobbie's age in Company. Also, many would argue that say, a Game of Thrones Cast member would be recognisable and sell tickets. But just ask the director of Foxfinder how well that went (actually don't she'll bite your head off but that's another story) I'm actually at the oldest range of millennial, so have several friends who are older and outside the bracket. But as I keep telling them, that's ok, because that means it's not their fault! They get to blame us for everything.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 13:06:20 GMT
When was James Corden ever in a musical? Aside from Martin Guerre, there's no WAY he gets name recognition for *that*!
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Post by abitoftap on Oct 15, 2018 13:14:31 GMT
When was James Corden ever in a musical? Aside from Martin Guerre, there's no WAY he gets name recognition for *that*! ..and hidden in the ensemble. What about Michael Ball. I would guess his presence helped Passion open back in the day. Similarly the West End transfer of Sweeney.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 13:21:32 GMT
When was James Corden ever in a musical? Aside from Martin Guerre, there's no WAY he gets name recognition for *that*! ..and hidden in the ensemble. What about Michael Ball. I would guess his presence helped Passion open back in the day. Similarly the West End transfer of Sweeney. James Corden was hardly hidden in the ensemble. He stuck out like a sore thumb.... There was obviously no rationing in that village...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 13:25:59 GMT
When was James Corden ever in a musical? Aside from Martin Guerre, there's no WAY he gets name recognition for *that*! I mean he was (for shame) in Into the Woods. And forthcoming as a Cat of some kind. All of this gives me pause to ask 'what IS he famous for?' as a serious question. I knew him from Gavin and Stacey before History Boys (for shame etc, but perhaps proves our point). How did he go from Barry's Island, to sh*t films with Matthew Horne to taking up screen time that should have been Cate Blanchett's? As every I don't wish the boy any ill, it's not his fault I lost 3 hours of my life to One Man... he just confuses me.
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Post by kathryn on Oct 15, 2018 13:42:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 13:44:40 GMT
Oh, Into The Woods, good shout. Not musical *theatre* as such, but I doubt the average person in the street is going to be as pedantic as I am at any given time.
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Post by kathryn on Oct 15, 2018 14:14:06 GMT
I make a distinction between movie musicals - musicals that were born as films - and film adaptations of musical theatre. Into the Woods is a film adaptation of musical theatre, The Greatest Showman is a movie musical.
And naturally we have stage adaptations of movie musicals, too. I am sure someone somewhere has written a PhD on the way the different musical-languages translate (successfully, or not) between media.
What Corden does on his TV show is actually musical theatre. That's the gag - the pedestrian crossing is used as a stage, the cars at the traffic lights are a captive audience.
But this is waaay off topic now....
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Post by sf on Oct 15, 2018 17:05:55 GMT
When was James Corden ever in a musical? Aside from Martin Guerre, there's no WAY he gets name recognition for *that*!
A Broadway revival of 'A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum' with Corden as Pseudolus was on the cards, but was shelved when he got his US TV show. And he sang a bit in 'One Man, Two Guvnors'.
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Post by sf on Oct 15, 2018 17:07:00 GMT
James Corden was hardly hidden in the ensemble. He stuck out like a sore thumb.... There was obviously no rationing in that village... Oh, wow, a fat joke. How refreshingly original and witty.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 17:54:53 GMT
It’s a statement of fact though isn’t it? How could she possibly be offended without looking like a total diva or a bit deluded? She’s not stupid, she’ll be quite well aware of her ‘reach’ outside the world of theatre. And he didn’t seem to be saying it unkindly or with malice. And we don’t know if his intention was to put her down. He could be implying that the general public SHOULD know her name.
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Post by sherriebythesea on Oct 15, 2018 18:41:02 GMT
I had to stop my drinking game that went with "famous people you've seen in the audience" thread. Take a drink whenever I didn't recognize a name. Kept getting too sloshed as I didn't know hardly anyone. But I've known of LuPone forever
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Post by sf on Oct 15, 2018 18:43:29 GMT
It’s a statement of fact though isn’t it? How could she possibly be offended without looking like a total diva or a bit deluded? She’s not stupid, she’ll be quite well aware of her ‘reach’ outside the world of theatre. And he didn’t seem to be saying it unkindly or with malice. And we don’t know if his intention was to put her down. He could be implying that the general public SHOULD know her name.
That's not quite what his tone of voice suggested - but as others have said, he also didn't seem to be saying it unkindly. It was a dispassionate statement of fact - tactless, maybe, but not meant as a put-down, simply as a qualification of her point.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 19:32:13 GMT
And we don’t know if his intention was to put her down. He could be implying that the general public SHOULD know her name.
That's not quite what his tone of voice suggested - but as others have said, he also didn't seem to be saying it unkindly. It was a dispassionate statement of fact - tactless, maybe, but not meant as a put-down, simply as a qualification of her point.
Kind of like one of those off hand comments your 88yr old Grandfather would innocently make but is interpreted as quite flippant.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 19:33:03 GMT
I get what Sondheim means to an extent - especially if I apply the same logic to the West End. When did we last have a legitimate west end star become a huge box office draw? We’ve had certain names build up a fanbase that enables them to branch out into doing their own solo work, but their names alone don’t guarantee a ticket sale hit. I assume this is what Sondheim meant anyway. The biggest I can think of here is Kerry Ellis and Rachel Tucker, but both have struggled to find roles post Wicked and both have had to rely on Wicked’s fandom to branch out as solo acts (which is ultimately solo work that doesn’t actually help them find a new audience). Even if we apply the same here to Company’s cast, the leading lady is one of the least known, despite extensive work in musical theatre over the last decade. That all said - there’s a huge lack of new musicals that allow a person to build up any sort of name. Even Kerry Ellis has had to rely on big name revivals post Wicked to really create whatever west end stardom she has (including a trip back to Wicked itself). I accept producers have a responsibility to get bums on seats and if that means getting someone well known in the show, then so be it. But I feel like musical theatre circles could do more to support its own community more - there’s a huge pool of talented, capable performers that can do the material justice... if the material is good enough. I've brought this up before, and I know it provokes very strong feelings of alarm among certain board members, but I think it bears repeating: a the moment the most recognisable British musical theatre performer among the wider general public - certainly among the dreaded millennial demographic - is probably James Corden. And that's because he performs musical theatre regularly on the telly/internet with famous people. If we had a British equivalent of Glee, or a MT casting show still on the telly, that would be different. But we don't. No, I’m afraid I can’t agree. I get why you’re saying it, but singing a few bars of a few songs the public know (as part of a TV bit) doesn’t make him a prolific musical theatre performer anymore than Carpool Karaoke makes him a popstar. James isn’t known as a musical theatre performer and didn’t make his name in musical theatre. I have been trying to think of who is though (as part of the wider conversation), and I just keep coming back to Julie Andrews. She comes from musical theatre and largely stayed within that realm of entertainment until the doctor butchered her vocals. Yes she abandoned us for the US, but she never stopped recording or performing musical theatre as a solo act. Even now in her 80s, she’s just done a Netflix show for kids about performing. It’s such a crime she had her voice taken from her. Imagine Julie’s Norma Desmond... Plus the millennials all know her. But don’t get me started on millennials. They had one job and we still ended up with Trump on one side of the Atlantic and May on the other.
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Post by Rory on Oct 15, 2018 19:38:34 GMT
Have just listened to the Graham Norton interview. Poor Sondheim got himself in a right old pickle, didn't he? I daresay Patti was miffed to say the least and poor Graham wrapped it up mega-sharpish!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 19:40:20 GMT
In Patti’s defence though (I loves her), she has been considered famous enough to play herself a number of times in various TV shows and what not. Not everyone will know who she on these shows, but presumably the producers believe enough will to justify an appearance in the first place. How do you like those egg rolls, Mr Sondheim?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 19:41:40 GMT
As much as I hate to derail a topic that has already been moved to stay on topic...
I don’t think it’s the Millennials you can blame for Trump and May (or Brexit as I can hear that one coming next)
Also let me take a guess at how old you think we are (and tell you to add a decade)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 19:51:52 GMT
As much as I hate to derail a topic that has already been moved to stay on topic... I don’t think it’s the Millennials you can blame for Trump and May (or Brexit as I can hear that one coming next) Also let me take a guess at how old you think we are (and tell you to add a decade) I shall say this quickly and quietly as I agree about derailing... but there were enough millennials to sort the lot of them out. If only we had all voted. And I blame us for Brexit to. I don’t blame the old sods that don’t know any better, I blame the young ones that should have.
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Post by jaqs on Oct 15, 2018 20:02:46 GMT
We need Luke Evans to come back and do another musical.
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Post by kathryn on Oct 15, 2018 21:10:51 GMT
@kevinuk I bet you most millennials would say that Julie Andrews is American. I certainly thought she was! I concede she’s much better known - but she’s a star of the broadcast media age. That’s the point! We have a culture that is so siloed that we can be totally unaware of what other people are engaging with, even when it’s an area where you share an interest with them.
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