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Post by mkb on Sept 29, 2022 11:16:16 GMT
You can't beat the sound of a large orchestra. Cut-down versions, no matter how cleverly done, just don't sound as good, at least to my untrained ears. Which got me thinking, especially in light of the Phantom discussions, why the economics no longer work.
Can someone with a producer background give me an idiot-guide please as to why theatre economics can no longer support large orchestras, compared to, say, 30 years ago?
I can see that ticket prices, especially on Broadway, have risen in excess of inflation over that period, so presumably costs have gone up even more? Why is that? Is everyone paid a lot more in real terms? Are there many more non-creatives to fund?
Is a smaller percentage of seat capacity being sold, thus reducing revenue, in spite of (or because of) the higher ticket prices?
My sense is (judging by personnel lists in programmes and on websites) that it takes many more people to run a theatre now than it did 30 years ago, and I have no understanding of how that happened. Some, such as the National Theatre, have grown empires to being among the largest employers in their area. What on earth do all their people do? My suspicion is that efficiency savings that other industries strive for have somehow bypassed the theatre industry, apart from amongst the musicians. Is this an unjustified belief?
I have a nephew who works as a lighting designer/technician, and his experience of some work in the USA was quite an eye-opener. Whereas in the UK the attitude was to do whatever was needed to get a job done and everyone mucked in, in the USA, there were strict union-agreed working practices that made it very labour-intensive and time-consuming to carry out many activities. Have these rules mushroomed over time?
Or is that commercial productions have always relied, not just on ticket revenue, but on sponsorship, and there is less of it?
I'm genuinely interested to know why the income for, say, Phantom could fund a large orchestra in the past, but not any more.
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Post by shadypines on Sept 29, 2022 11:44:50 GMT
The costs are, in fact, quite extraordinary. The musicians union is very strong and musicians are on a very good deal (although i'm sure they will disagree) compared to equity and bectu minimums.
On Broadway it's much worse. I remember a conversation with a producer friend 10 years ago on broadway and he said it cost them £75 to move an upright piano into the stalls so they could rehearse - each way. Only a dedicated stage hand was allowed to move it.
Theatres like HM have also recently had big upgrades to their sound system which makes projecting audio much more effective.
And don't forget, most (more than 50%) of shows don't recoup their entire initial investment. A production might play to 80% capacity but only hit 40% or less financially. All those wonderful discounts on todaytix cost the shows lots in commission.
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594 posts
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Post by og on Sept 29, 2022 12:37:44 GMT
It's not necessarily all about not being able to fund it strictly (although that can play a big part), but increasing profit margins is an ongoing business consideration all the time.
As an example, Oct 21-22 minimum weekly salary for a musician playing one instrument in a SOLT venue once nightly is £1098.
Say your pit are contracted for the year with 4 weeks off, that's £52,704.00 per musician. Section leaders get more, those doubling up (eg woodwinds taking flute/piccolo, clarinet/bass clarinet, etc) get more, as do perc, and it goes up and up again for those playing 3/4 instruments, conductors get more.
If you have a pit of 22, which is roughly what Phantom had, you're paying a minimum of £1,159,488.00 for the orchestra.
And that doesn't factor in pension contributions and porterage.
So when Cameron wanted to half the number in the pit, not only did it seem like a good option for social distancing, but he'd be saving over half a million a year. Who can blame him for taking that option.
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6,276 posts
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Post by Jon on Sept 29, 2022 12:39:01 GMT
Phantom's 27 piece orchestra was the exception rather than the rule. Les Miserables' original orchestra was 22 but was halved when it moved to the Queens/Sondheim but then increased to 14 7 years later.
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Post by sph on Sept 29, 2022 12:39:28 GMT
I think advances in technology and the quality of click-tracks has improved to the point that when shows are looking to save money they see the orchestra as an easy cut.
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Post by c4ndyc4ne on Sept 29, 2022 12:48:57 GMT
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594 posts
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Post by og on Sept 29, 2022 13:04:20 GMT
I think advances in technology and the quality of click-tracks has improved to the point that when shows are looking to save money they see the orchestra as an easy cut. Sorry to be pedantic, but 'the quality of click-tracks' has no real bearing on it. It's a systemic misunderstanding of the term 'click-track' in MT and the wider environment. A click-track is literally an audio file of a metronome tock-ing. Analogue or digital, they've existed for decades and the improvements to a track going 'Tick tock tock tock Tick tock tock tock...' have been pretty marginal in that time. To get a click-track to a cast member, they'd require an IEM (in ear monitor), an extra body pack on top of the wireless mic they have, which would need integrating into their costume. Otherwise Sound would be pumping a very loud 'Tick tock tock tock' through foldback stage monitoring so everyone kept in time. And thats not gonna sound very nice for the audience is it. Very few musicals do this, unless it's an instrument heavy stage show. In most instances, where there is a click, it's fed to the conductor via headphones and the cast/orch follow that, but Phantom's been doing that since '86. Reliance on click in modern shows is important and it's a crucial element now, but not necessarily to down size the pit, it's more to keep all the technical elements synchronised, via SMPTE. Split-track music with a click layer fed to other technical departments means those massive moments where everything pops at a singular moment happens with accuracy. |
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Post by SuttonPeron on Sept 29, 2022 13:44:16 GMT
More shows rely on extensive keyboard programming and virtual orchestras as Sinfonia or KeyComp (Disney´s cost-saving baby) that they do on prerecorded instruments on click. Click is indeed mostly used to sync lighting, projections... and for prerecorded "booster" backup vocals which are also becoming more common with shows having less people in the ensemble.
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Post by austink on Sept 29, 2022 15:15:21 GMT
Indeed and when you get into smaller venues note that musician rates are relatively inflexible compared to other crafts and trades (ie a good musician on an off west end show will get paid quite well and normally better than actors). Also, they they very regimented into 3 hour music calls so costs can dwarf and it very much becomes an unaffordable luxury.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Sept 29, 2022 16:23:27 GMT
It is worth noting that on tours like Dreamboats and Petticoats, the producer would make sure each of the musicians had at least one line of dialogue in the show. That way they would be paid as actors rather than musicians - at a lower rate thus saving money.
The success of the MU in protecting their members has, in one way, helped with the rise of actor-musician shows where producers can put on musicals without needing a band. Which thus reduces opportunities for MU members...
In another area of theatre, that of stage crew, BECTU has set things up so that those who worked on the get in of a show also get paid for the get out even if they aren't actually needed or involved. This is a cost that has been passed on to shows I have directed in local professional venues and there is no way of getting out of it. Similarly the get out charge is always at a minimum of 2 hours even if it only takes far less than that.
The economics of theatre is very complicated and I don't wish to see anyone not properly compensated for the work they do but a lot of traditional working arrangements do feel very antiquated.
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Post by scarpia on Sept 29, 2022 16:30:36 GMT
Phantom's 27 piece orchestra was the exception rather than the rule. Les Miserables' original orchestra was 22 but was halved when it moved to the Queens/Sondheim but then increased to 14 7 years later. I could be wrong, but I think that the original Miz at the Barbican had 25 in the pit. It wasn't so long ago either that we still had orchestra sizes of 20+ in the West End. The revival of Evita in 2006 had around 22 in the pit, I think. |
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Post by singingbird on Sept 29, 2022 21:28:14 GMT
Thank you for posting this question - it's something I wonder a lot about, and not just in terms of orchestras. There seemed to be more money to spend all round on mounting musicals in the eighties than there is now.
Thank you too for so many interesting replies. But I still don't understand. Why were things affordable then that aren't affordable now? Or is it simply that there was no cheaper alternative then, and there is now?
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2,731 posts
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Post by ceebee on Sept 29, 2022 21:42:35 GMT
More shows rely on extensive keyboard programming and virtual orchestras as Sinfonia or KeyComp (Disney´s cost-saving baby) that they do on prerecorded instruments on click. Click is indeed mostly used to sync lighting, projections... and for prerecorded "booster" backup vocals which are also becoming more common with shows having less people in the ensemble. You mean the bass "dead ringer" vocals in Bat Out Of Hell aren't live?! GUTTED! |
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Post by inthenose on Sept 29, 2022 22:57:14 GMT
Thank you for posting this question - it's something I wonder a lot about, and not just in terms of orchestras. There seemed to be more money to spend all round on mounting musicals in the eighties than there is now. Thank you too for so many interesting replies. But I still don't understand. Why were things affordable then that aren't affordable now? Or is it simply that there was no cheaper alternative then, and there is now? COVID, cost of living crisis, upcoming massive global recession are all playing a huge part. Advances in technology have been made in every single area, computerisation/automation of previous manual labour jobs have massively cut costs for producers in the last few decades. Sinfonia, for instance, is a direct replacement for a handful of pit musicians, a big saving as pointed out above. This is technology which simply didn’t exist when some of the long-runners were orchestrated. Q-Lab changed show operation, one automation operator is cheaper than twelve burly fellas carrying set pieces on and off stage, everywhere money is being saved to keep shows financially viable. What it doesn’t explain or justify is why ticket prices are going up, and up, and up, and up, yet sets are getting smaller, costumes cheaper, pits smaller (or actor-muso), programmes are a tenner, £5 for a tiny ice cream, etc etc. Nobody is suggesting producers and investors should be doing this for charity, but there are some very greedy and unscrupulous practices from increasingly unethical super-producers who absolutely don’t need to damage their products with penny-pinching. It’s true that this is a bit of a dark age for commercial theatre, albeit understandable given the general state of things (especially since COVID), but realistically many of the great long runners (and cash cows!) have been so phenomenally successful because of the money put into them. You saw the money on stage and heard it from the pit. As it stands, it’s GIGO - garbage in, garbage out. |
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6,276 posts
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Post by Jon on Sept 30, 2022 0:37:29 GMT
I don't think there's necessarily less money being spent on musicals, indeed we still get lavish productions of shows like Moulin Rouge! and Frozen but keep in mind before the 1980s, shows were relatively simple in terms of set and lighting design and it was ALW and Cameron Mackintosh who lead the way to create spectacle with shows and many tried to emulate that with Time and Chess but not quite capturing the imagination of the public.
Indeed it was the success of the Mega Musicals which lead to Disney getting into theatre with shows like Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King.
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228 posts
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Post by singingbird on Sept 30, 2022 10:22:22 GMT
Thank you - this all really helps me understand! I think what I'm realising is, when people say 'we couldn't afford to mount a show like Starlight Express/Time/Metropolis now' they actually don't mean that. What they mean is 'no sane producer would spend that amount of money now because we've realised that, more often than not, you just lose a fortune.' So it's prudence, rather than it being literally impossible. I guess some producers just got a bit giddy in the eighties!
Personally, nearly all my favourite shows are small and intimate, but I still miss the feeling of walking into a large theatre and being confronted by an entire world laid out all around me.
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2,557 posts
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Post by viserys on Sept 30, 2022 11:05:33 GMT
I guess some producers just got a bit giddy in the eighties! Possibly - but they also reaped massive rewards by taking risks such as staging Cats (which almost everyone thought would flop) and Starlight Express (an even insaner concept with everyone on roller skates). Today most everything seems very "safe" with hardly anything having the potential to make you gasp or surprise you anymore. Though even now it seems that it's often still those shows that at least take risks with their subject matters and style (such as Hamilton and Six) that are more successful than what seem to be safe moneymakers on paper like all those bland movie adaptations, hardly any of which have truly set the box office on fire. |
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Post by shadypines on Sept 30, 2022 11:57:41 GMT
Thank you - this all really helps me understand! I think what I'm realising is, when people say 'we couldn't afford to mount a show like Starlight Express/Time/Metropolis now' they actually don't mean that. What they mean is 'no sane producer would spend that amount of money now because we've realised that, more often than not, you just lose a fortune.' So it's prudence, rather than it being literally impossible. I guess some producers just got a bit giddy in the eighties! Personally, nearly all my favourite shows are small and intimate, but I still miss the feeling of walking into a large theatre and being confronted by an entire world laid out all around me. And let's not forget the millions spent and lost on Spiderman on broadway. Money is out there for the right investment. I know of one "investor" who fronted almost the entire capital required to put on their favourite show, never mind that EVERYONE working on it knew it wasn't going to sell. |
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Post by Jon on Sept 30, 2022 12:09:08 GMT
Thank you - this all really helps me understand! I think what I'm realising is, when people say 'we couldn't afford to mount a show like Starlight Express/Time/Metropolis now' they actually don't mean that. What they mean is 'no sane producer would spend that amount of money now because we've realised that, more often than not, you just lose a fortune.' So it's prudence, rather than it being literally impossible. I guess some producers just got a bit giddy in the eighties! Personally, nearly all my favourite shows are small and intimate, but I still miss the feeling of walking into a large theatre and being confronted by an entire world laid out all around me. And let's not forget the millions spent and lost on Spiderman on broadway. Money is out there for the right investment. I know of one "investor" who fronted almost the entire capital required to put on their favourite show, never mind that EVERYONE working on it knew it wasn't going to sell. Spider-Man is the producing 101 of how things can go terribly wrong. Lord of the Rings is another example of a show that also lost millions. As I've said, big scale shows still exist but it's much harder now to push technology as a selling point when you have existing shows like The Lion King and Wicked so you have to innovate in different ways. |
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Post by inthenose on Sept 30, 2022 12:10:54 GMT
BttF has recouped and done very well…
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594 posts
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Post by og on Sept 30, 2022 14:41:38 GMT
An American in Paris was a breath of fresh air though, Producers threw caution to the wind and filled the Dominion pit, even with a lesser-spotted Harp!
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Post by Seriously on Sept 30, 2022 15:35:14 GMT
I think advances in technology and the quality of click-tracks has improved to the point that when shows are looking to save money they see the orchestra as an easy cut. Sorry to be pedantic, but 'the quality of click-tracks' has no real bearing on it. It's a systemic misunderstanding of the term 'click-track' in MT and the wider environment. A click-track is literally an audio file of a metronome tock-ing. Analogue or digital, they've existed for decades and the improvements to a track going 'Tick tock tock tock Tick tock tock tock...' have been pretty marginal in that time. To get a click-track to a cast member, they'd require an IEM (in ear monitor), an extra body pack on top of the wireless mic they have, which would need integrating into their costume. Otherwise Sound would be pumping a very loud 'Tick tock tock tock' through foldback stage monitoring so everyone kept in time. And thats not gonna sound very nice for the audience is it. Very few musicals do this, unless it's an instrument heavy stage show. In most instances, where there is a click, it's fed to the conductor via headphones and the cast/orch follow that, but Phantom's been doing that since '86. Reliance on click in modern shows is important and it's a crucial element now, but not necessarily to down size the pit, it's more to keep all the technical elements synchronised, via SMPTE. Split-track music with a click layer fed to other technical departments means those massive moments where everything pops at a singular moment happens with accuracy. I'm not sure that's what the original poster meant. Click tracks these days have recorded instruments and effects on them to beef up the orchestrations. It's very rare for them just to be the tempo track. And SMPTE is only really used in films. |
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594 posts
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Post by og on Sept 30, 2022 15:58:39 GMT
Sorry to be pedantic, but 'the quality of click-tracks' has no real bearing on it. It's a systemic misunderstanding of the term 'click-track' in MT and the wider environment. A click-track is literally an audio file of a metronome tock-ing. Analogue or digital, they've existed for decades and the improvements to a track going 'Tick tock tock tock Tick tock tock tock...' have been pretty marginal in that time. To get a click-track to a cast member, they'd require an IEM (in ear monitor), an extra body pack on top of the wireless mic they have, which would need integrating into their costume. Otherwise Sound would be pumping a very loud 'Tick tock tock tock' through foldback stage monitoring so everyone kept in time. And thats not gonna sound very nice for the audience is it. Very few musicals do this, unless it's an instrument heavy stage show. In most instances, where there is a click, it's fed to the conductor via headphones and the cast/orch follow that, but Phantom's been doing that since '86. Reliance on click in modern shows is important and it's a crucial element now, but not necessarily to down size the pit, it's more to keep all the technical elements synchronised, via SMPTE. Split-track music with a click layer fed to other technical departments means those massive moments where everything pops at a singular moment happens with accuracy. I'm not sure that's what the original poster meant. Click tracks these days have recorded instruments and effects on them to beef up the orchestrations. It's very rare for them just to be the tempo track. And SMPTE is only really used in films. No, a click track is a discreet (physically separate) track with just clicking on. It usually accompanies mulitracks/stems but there is no value in having one track with instruments and click burnt into the same audio mix. You can get multitracks with one layer being click, but in a performance you don't get a click track with instruments and effects on the same track. SMPTE is a form of timecode, which works to keep everything in synchronisation when video elements are used (think bat of hell etc). To say SMPTE is only really used in films is outright misinformation. Nearly every pop act you see performing live, that performance is driven by smpte because of video focus. Every acts without using video may still have smpte driving playback elements and A/B redundancy rigs. |
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Post by SuttonPeron on Sept 30, 2022 16:01:24 GMT
Sorry to be pedantic, but 'the quality of click-tracks' has no real bearing on it. It's a systemic misunderstanding of the term 'click-track' in MT and the wider environment. A click-track is literally an audio file of a metronome tock-ing. Analogue or digital, they've existed for decades and the improvements to a track going 'Tick tock tock tock Tick tock tock tock...' have been pretty marginal in that time. To get a click-track to a cast member, they'd require an IEM (in ear monitor), an extra body pack on top of the wireless mic they have, which would need integrating into their costume. Otherwise Sound would be pumping a very loud 'Tick tock tock tock' through foldback stage monitoring so everyone kept in time. And thats not gonna sound very nice for the audience is it. Very few musicals do this, unless it's an instrument heavy stage show. In most instances, where there is a click, it's fed to the conductor via headphones and the cast/orch follow that, but Phantom's been doing that since '86. Reliance on click in modern shows is important and it's a crucial element now, but not necessarily to down size the pit, it's more to keep all the technical elements synchronised, via SMPTE. Split-track music with a click layer fed to other technical departments means those massive moments where everything pops at a singular moment happens with accuracy. I'm not sure that's what the original poster meant. Click tracks these days have recorded instruments and effects on them to beef up the orchestrations. It's very rare for them just to be the tempo track. And SMPTE is only really used in films. Most of the shows that use prerecorded instruments in click tracks are pop/rock shows though. It´s common to have additional synths on click in concerts, so when they music is reorchestrated for theatre, they´ll keep those recordings. Those synth sequences are often difficult to program and play live. Though one of the reeds in Tina is prerecorded and Moulin Rouge does have several recordings of accoustic instruments on click. The more "orchestral" shows usually use virtual orchestras and keyboard programming. |
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Post by inthenose on Sept 30, 2022 17:30:38 GMT
I'm not sure that's what the original poster meant. Click tracks these days have recorded instruments and effects on them to beef up the orchestrations. It's very rare for them just to be the tempo track. And SMPTE is only really used in films. No, a click track is a discreet (physically separate) track with just clicking on. It usually accompanies mulitracks/stems but there is no value in having one track with instruments and click burnt into the same audio mix. You can get multitracks with one layer being click, but in a performance you don't get a click track with instruments and effects on the same track. SMPTE is a form of timecode, which works to keep everything in synchronisation when video elements are used (think bat of hell etc). To say SMPTE is only really used in films is outright misinformation. Nearly every pop act you see performing live, that performance is driven by smpte because of video focus. Every acts without using video may still have smpte driving playback elements and A/B redundancy rigs. This is 100% correct. |
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Post by inthenose on Sept 30, 2022 17:34:24 GMT
People misuse the term “click track” to mean “pre-recorded” constantly. Even within theatre. A click track is a metronome set at a certain tempo to allow operators to hit cues when conducting, cueing or opping. Nothing more and nothing less. firefingers |
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Post by og on Sept 30, 2022 17:40:25 GMT
Exactly. As I said, it's a systemic fundamental misunderstanding of the term. QLAB > Cue 1 > GO: (Cue1 simultaneously plays 5x audio files) | Cue1 - Song Audio File01_bvs.wav | Backing Vocals | Mixer inputs 1&2 | Cue1 - Song Audio File01_2keys.wav
| 2nd Keys | Mixer inputs 3&4 | Cue1 - Song Audio File01_fx.wav
| FX | Mixer inputs 5&6 | Cue1 - Song Audio File01_drums.wav
| Drums | Mixer inputs 7&8 | Cue1 - Song Audio File01_click.wav
| Click | Mixer input 9 |
Mixer Input 9 - THAT IS A CLICK TRACK; not all of them together in a package or any other weird supposed derivation. |
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Post by inthenose on Sept 30, 2022 17:45:34 GMT
Exactly. As I said, it's a systemic fundamental misunderstanding of the term. QLAB > Cue 1 > GO: (Cue1 simultaneously plays 5x audio files) | Cue1 - Song Audio File01_bvs.wav | Backing Vocals | Mixer inputs 1&2 | Cue1 - Song Audio File01_2keys.wav
| 2nd Keys | Mixer inputs 3&4 | Cue1 - Song Audio File01_fx.wav
| FX | Mixer inputs 5&6 | Cue1 - Song Audio File01_drums.wav
| Drums | Mixer inputs 7&8 | Cue1 - Song Audio File01_click.wav
| Click | Mixer input 9 |
Mixer Inpute 9 - THAT IS A CLICK TRACK; not all of them together in a package or any other weird supposed derivation. I am all about educating people, demystifying the process. If they want to train and work in the biz, these are the basics. It’s important not to belittle those asking questions, and call out those giving misinformation. Same as anything in life. |
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Post by Seriously on Sept 30, 2022 22:37:10 GMT
You should ring Cameron and tell him then. Because every time he's asked me "Is that on the click track" I've just said yes!
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Post by inthenose on Oct 1, 2022 6:38:22 GMT
You should ring Cameron and tell him then. Because every time he's asked me "Is that on the click track" I've just said yes! This is absolute nonsense. From my dealings with Cameron he doesn’t know his arse from his elbow when it comes to the technical aspects of putting on a show. He didn’t know what a gobo was, but wondered why it cost so much to get a gobo holder. He wants an end product, and it doesn’t matter how it gets there. He hires trusted people to get an end product. He then oversees the general creative side, alongside the director. He manages budgets. I’ve never; ever known Cameron (or any other top producer for that matter) to insert themselves into technical notes. It just doesn’t happen. Even the most “forthright” of producers don’t do this. |
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