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Post by mkb on Apr 14, 2022 14:41:20 GMT
Wednesday night's show went ahead, to my relief. But what a nightmare trying to reach a venue 35 minutes by train from central London for the ridiculously early start time of 18:30 (if you want the full three loops). Weekday performances of this show are going to require an afternoon's holiday for many working people. I must revise my earlier scathing views on Punchdrunk's front-of-house organisation: for this, they seem to have got their act together. At 18:20, there was a queue of just a dozen people, and my coat was checked and I was past the bar and into the show itself by 18:30. Coats are £1 to check; anything else is £5. I just pretended not to hear the people asking for phones. Provided your mobile is silenced and stays in your pocket, there isn't going to be a problem. It's important to dress light, as it's quite warm inside. Definitely don't skimp on checking your outer garments. Although I was in by 18:30, I missed the first ten minutes of the first of the three loops. What I think was the reset music seemed to happen about 23 minutes after the hour. My partner saw what he thinks was the finale in Troy, and this ended at 21:20. He didn't attempt to then make his way to Mycenae as he assumed that was also complete, except it wasn't. I saw that, and it ended at 21:37. Whether he would have been allowed to make his way through to Mycenae at this point, I can't say. After the show, coat retrieval was fast, and there were various polite and friendly security people in hi-viz outside who tried to direct us right, to avoid upsetting residents in the street ahead. Of course, Woolwich Arsenal station is straight ahead, and we needed that. We promised to be quiet, and there was no objection to us walking by the direct route, not that they can legally stop you going that way; it's a public street after all. (We didn't stop in the bar, as it seemed to be wines and spirits only, and there was no price list, and I couldn't be doing with trying to extract price info from the bar staff in the noisy room.) So, what of The Burnt City itself? Well, my predilection for knowing as little as possible about a film or theatre show before seeing it, backfired big time. I could not work out who the characters were, what they were doing, what the themes were, and what it all meant. My husband, who had gleaned info from fans on Facebook, got a lot more out of it. I didn't even work out that there were two cities, Troy and Mycenae. To me, it was just one big collection of rooms over two floors, each with an eclectic design that bore little relation to anything else. It's not like I'm a Punchdrunk novice. I'm a veteran of Sleep No More (6 visits) and The Drowned Man (a dozen or so). So, I knew what to expect and how to proceed. I think it's fair to say that The Drowned Man is the pinnacle of Punchdrunk's output -- by some margin -- and The Burnt City, in its current state, falls well short of that. Whereas the themes of the other shows instantly resonated, Burnt City just left me scratching my head. The co-creators seem to have run out of new artistic ideas; much of what I saw last night simply echoed ideas I'd seen in the other shows*. They even re-use a little of the music. I recognised one of the tracks from the beautiful score to the film Perfume upstairs in what I now know to be Mycenae, that also featured in The Drowned Man. {Spoiler}* - More of the same-old included scissors, stabbings, lots of theatrical blood, lots of writhing around in fluids, lots of contemporary dance to indicate variously passion/anger/drunkenness/revenge/etc., animal heads, cuddly toys, random scribblings, potions, artefacts, etc. The slow-motion supper from Sleep No More is replicated with a ten-minute descent of a staircase. Luck was not on my side. I must have stumbled across the least interesting character in the whole she-bang, and tracked him for the whole of the first loop, despite his best effort to lose his followers by jumping off a first-floor balcony down to the level below. (This is a regular PD annoyance: characters who take routes that the public cannot, or disappear behind the scenes into locked rooms, so that you cannot complete their loops.) {Spoiler}I wasn't sure if this character was an archaeologist or a sculptor -- he spent some time fashioning objects from clay that may or may not have been tiny phalluses -- and the only interesting thing he did was suspend upside down for a short while. At one stage he reached out his hand, but I let the lady to my left accept the invitation to the one-on-one. I was allowed to stay and watch while he ran his fingers over her hands and then sat next to her while he wrote in a book as the lights went up and down. Quite what he was writing I don't know. I was close enough to see, but the pencil on paper was too faint in the light to be seen. (Another problem is the need to wear contact lenses rather than glasses, which, despite what PD may say, don't really work with their masks, and contact lenses -- for me at least -- are not optimised for close-up vision.) Some white masks were walking around in pairs holding hands. They don't seem to understand how it lessens the experience if you do not do it as an individual. Please can PD publish a rule to disallow hand-holding. Linked people are slow to move, get in the way and are a damned nuisance. Surprisingly, both finales were greeted in complete silence: there was not even polite applause, and certainly not the whooping and hollering that the audience erupted into at the conclusion of The Drowned Man. I think my sense of being underwhelmed was widely shared. Three stars, because I still found the overall experience fascinating, and I wasn't bored. I may venture back once the show is complete and once I have educated myself on what the story is.
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Post by n1david on Apr 14, 2022 15:12:13 GMT
Wednesday night's show went ahead, to my relief. But what a nightmare trying to reach a venue 35 minutes by train from central London for the ridiculously early start time of 18:30 (if you want the full three loops). Weekday performances of this show are going to require an afternoon's holiday for many working people. I guess they expected/hoped that Crossrail would be open by time this opened - that will put Woolwich Arsenal 15 minutes from Tottenham Court Road. Have to say as someone who enjoyed TDM but isn't a Punchdrunk fanatic, my heart is rather heavy about this one, particularly if Crossrail still hasn't opened but the time I am due to go...
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Post by mkb on Apr 14, 2022 15:50:36 GMT
I forgot to mention an issue with the policy of asking people to carry their mobile around in a sealed pouch. Judging by last night, some people forget to silence them first, and are then unable to do anything when they ring out loud during the show.
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Post by Steffi on Apr 14, 2022 16:12:56 GMT
I forgot to mention an issue with the policy of asking people to carry their mobile around in a sealed pouch. Judging by last night, some people forget to silence them first, and are then unable to do anything when they ring out loud during the show. The last times I went they explicitly asked people to put phones on silent or turn them off before sealing them in the pouch.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2022 16:34:42 GMT
Obsessed with this thread. Even more convinced than ever that Punchdrunk is not for me. The mention of ‘white masks holding hands’ was the nail in the coffin for me 😹
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Post by ThereWillBeSun on Apr 14, 2022 18:07:21 GMT
I forgot to mention an issue with the policy of asking people to carry their mobile around in a sealed pouch. Judging by last night, some people forget to silence them first, and are then unable to do anything when they ring out loud during the show. The last times I went they explicitly asked people to put phones on silent or turn them off before sealing them in the pouch. Same when I went - I just turned mine off.!
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Post by asfound on Apr 18, 2022 7:05:25 GMT
Spoiler free thoughts after my second visit:
I guess this is still in previews, but unfortunately after my second go I had the same feeling of being underwhelmed as my first. This is the first time I've felt let down by a Punchdrunk show in the 5 productions I've seen (I was even enthralled in parts my Kabeiroi). So to try and be brief:
1) It was very much back to what they do best (so Sleep No More/Drowned Man Part III), which might be a relief to some after Kabeiroi, but to me felt very familiar and almost predictable. There was almost nothing I hadn't already seen before.
2) But unlike former shows the narrative seemed far more incoherent and vague. Once I knew the works SNM and TDM were based on I could more or less follow what was going on, or at the very least the general themes and overall arc. Even after a bunch of reading up before my second visit I still didn't have much of an idea as to what was going on or who was who. With a few exceptions, the characters aren't distinct enough and too many spend too long writing notes or playing with glasses or flowers and not really driving anything forward.
3) There are a few sets in Troy which conjure up the old Punchdrunk magic, but for a lot of it I was painfully aware I was in a warehouse in Woolwich. The set dressings aren't expansive or lush enough, the Mycenae battlefield is essentially a large carpeted warehouse space with curtains and a couple of steel structures. There is nothing as immersive or impressive as the forest, desert, ballroom, locker room etc. of TDM. It reminded me of some of the cheap post-Punchdrunk cash-ins I've been to over the years. Lacking in atmosphere and a true sense of place and time.
4) God, the audience. I guess from other threads here that standards have dropped generally, but I don't really go to big shows or musicals too often so I haven't really noticed until TBC. For one thing, I know they have a bottom line but the experience is not great when the same audience size of TDM is packed into half the space. Even SNM in NY felt less overcrowded. But soooooo many were clearly not into the spirit of the show at all, even with the "go it alone" spiel at the beginning. Maybe 40% were hand-holding, clinging together or in groups. You know, if people are too timid or unadventurous or insecure to spend a few hours alone then whatever. But when this translates to dawdling along blocking the way, talking loudly (a lot of this), or using the sets to take off masks and start making out or chat, then it's a problem. Black masks were oblivious and uninterested, which I haven't seen before at a Punchdrunk show - they're normally on the ball. At least phones weren't a problem, but I'm sure people will start to ignore the bag up your phone rule once word of the Insta-potential gets out.
So I've sold or given away my four remaining tickets in May and June. Going to try again later in the run when I hope they've tightened things up a bit and sorted out a few of these issues, because despite the rather rabid fanbase I doubt I'm the only one that's noticed. It was definitely interesting, it definitely had its moments, and clearly has a lot of potential. But it's not there for me yet.
And I know they won't do it, but it would be great if they sold some of the shows as single tickets only for people that want the proper experience, and then had multiple ticket sales for relaxed shows for the basics and tourists.
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Apr 18, 2022 11:17:39 GMT
I’ve never been to a Punchdrunk show which I guess makes me a “basic” (or is it a tourist?) but presumably people find immersive theatre an activity they want to enjoy with others, and that the experience is enhanced by doing it communally, rather than being timid.
I’m going on press night, with low expectations but an open mind.
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Post by mkb on Apr 18, 2022 13:50:41 GMT
Not much of the budget seems to have been spent on costumes, which looked quite cheap. Footwear, in particular, often gave the impression of being "actor's own".
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Post by southstreet on Apr 18, 2022 17:58:26 GMT
I’ve never been to a Punchdrunk show which I guess makes me a “basic” (or is it a tourist?) but presumably people find immersive theatre an activity they want to enjoy with others, and that the experience is enhanced by doing it communally, rather than being timid. I’m going on press night, with low expectations but an open mind. I think it’s also the expectations. It’s not like Secret Cinema, which is definitely something that is most fun as a ‘group activity’, with its food and drinking and encouraging the audience to chat to the characters, etc. Whereas a Punchdrunk show is one where the audience is expected to be quiet and observe like they would (or at the very least SHOULD) in a proscenium arch show. You might be invited to take part in little bits, get taken into 1:1s but it’s not a show that’s interactive in as much as you can change the way the show or narratives go, go up to characters and start engaging in conversation etc. And it genuinely is best done alone, not as in going there on your own, but splitting up from your group as soon as you get into the space. But I guess lots of people will have done the more ‘secret cinema’ and Immersive Gatsby type of immersive theatre recently, so will go to a Punchdrunk show with the same expectations and behaviours.
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Post by lolalou on Apr 18, 2022 19:03:34 GMT
How do the time slots work? If you go earlier can you wander round till it closes? What times do regular PD recommend to get the full story arc? Thanks
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Post by digne on Apr 18, 2022 19:57:47 GMT
I've got to say, reading this thread makes me feel a lot better about seeing this show. I never saw Sleep No More because it sounded so anxiety-inducing - in my mind's eye I guess I was imagining a labyrinth of terrifying, empty rooms you find yourself getting lost in with no idea of where you are or how you get out, with actors jumping out at you every now and then to drag you away for scary 1 on 1 experiences. It's quite a relief to hear that you can just follow an actor around to experience some of the story and not get lost, and that there will be other people around to hopefully jump on those 1 on 1 chances.
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Post by craig on Apr 18, 2022 20:27:54 GMT
I loved The Drowned Man and have been so excited by this, but I'll be holding off based on all the reviews on here.
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Post by Steffi on Apr 19, 2022 9:40:58 GMT
How do the time slots work? If you go earlier can you wander round till it closes? What times do regular PD recommend to get the full story arc? Thanks They haven't been enforcing the time slots so far. You get in on a first come, first serve basis (premium and vip ticket holders have a separate entrance). The show runs in loops that are roughly 1 hour long and repeat 3 times. You will never get the full story arc in one visit though. If you're strategical you can follow 3 characters for their one hour narrative in one show. Considering there are 20+ characters in the show you will still only see a fraction of the whole show. But Punchdrunk shows are not meant to be seen in full in one visit. The idea is that each visitor has their own experience. At the end of the evening no one will have had exactly the same show.
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Post by Steffi on Apr 19, 2022 9:43:34 GMT
I've got to say, reading this thread makes me feel a lot better about seeing this show. I never saw Sleep No More because it sounded so anxiety-inducing - in my mind's eye I guess I was imagining a labyrinth of terrifying, empty rooms you find yourself getting lost in with no idea of where you are or how you get out, with actors jumping out at you every now and then to drag you away for scary 1 on 1 experiences. It's quite a relief to hear that you can just follow an actor around to experience some of the story and not get lost, and that there will be other people around to hopefully jump on those 1 on 1 chances. There are definitely no jump scares. I hate those, too. Also the one on ones are always voluntary. No performer will ever force you into them. Just don't take the performer's hand if they hold it out to you.
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Post by mkb on Apr 22, 2022 11:43:14 GMT
A five-star review from Anna James at The Stage: www.thestage.co.uk/long-reviews/long-reviews/punchdrunk-the-burnt-city-review-at-woolwich-worksBut I smell a rat. Could any reviewer really have gleaned all of that detail and have seen so much of the experience in a single trip? If so, she had incredible luck, and her insight into who the characters are and their stories is quite remarkable. Reading some of the other reviews, I can't help but wonder if the press were given advance briefing notes by way of explanation, with tips on where to go at what times. My own experience would have been improved immensely had I such resources.
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Post by mkb on Apr 22, 2022 12:12:22 GMT
Here's another example. In Sarah Crompton's three-star review for WhatsOnStage, she says: I cannot fathom how she knew that she was seeing Iphigenia and Clytemnestra. Is it that you need to have mastered Greek mythology as a pre-requisite to attendance, but, even then, how do you work out who is whom? Another line: This is incredible good fortune. The typical experience is more likely to be: you walk into one room, nothing is happening; into another, still nothing happening; into a third, and yes you might find a cast member if you are lucky. The smaller rooms are used for very little of each loop.
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Post by Phantom of London on Apr 22, 2022 12:13:44 GMT
For the life of me I never really understood why they didn't go safe and open Sleep No More a guaranteed hit.
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Post by harry on Apr 22, 2022 12:51:49 GMT
This is incredible good fortune. The typical experience is more likely to be: you walk into one room, nothing is happening; into another, still nothing happening; into a third, and yes you might find a cast member if you are lucky. The smaller rooms are used for very little of each loop. I’ve not seen this yet but my experience of The Drowned Man and The Masque of the Red Death were both similar and were made up of lots of incredibly infuriating and boring sections wandering round empty rooms wondering “is this it?” mixed with some electrifying moments where you find yourself in the right place at the right time. Actually the most fun was always trying to piece things together and comparing notes with others after the show (always tinged with a slight sense of regret that you hadn’t experienced one thing or another). So the raft of mainly 3-star reviews for this would match my previous Punchdrunk experience but not because the show itself is mediocre rather as an average rating of a show that was either 1-star or 5-star at any given moment and pretty much nothing in between.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Apr 22, 2022 12:58:25 GMT
From all that has been posted and the reviews my interest in this is more or less extinguished.
I hope people continue to post their thoughts as it may provide the enlightenment I need to at least pique my interest.
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Post by alexandra on Apr 22, 2022 13:05:34 GMT
It all sounds unbelievably stressful and FOMO-triggering. Which is how I found Faust, where I missed the entire finale. Not for me.
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Post by n1david on May 4, 2022 14:33:19 GMT
Crossrail announced to be opening on May 24 which will make getting here easier, even if it won't change the nature of the production!
Trains every 5 minutes from Central London will take 21 minutes (from TCR) to the new Woolwich station which is a bit closer to Punchdrunk's place than the existing Woolwich Arsenal station.
Makes it more likely I'll use my ticket but wonder if the journey there might be the most interesting thing about the evening...
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Post by profquatermass on May 4, 2022 19:02:45 GMT
Here's another example. In Sarah Crompton's three-star review for WhatsOnStage, she says: I cannot fathom how she knew that she was seeing Iphigenia and Clytemnestra. Is it that you need to have mastered Greek mythology as a pre-requisite to attendance, but, even then, how do you work out who is whom? I was able to follow the whole Mycenae story perfectly - it's not hard to work out if you know any Greek mythology or tragedy. I don't find it unlikely that a drama critic would be familiar with the plots of Iphigeneia in Aulis and the Oresteia
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Post by samuelwhiskers on May 4, 2022 21:11:20 GMT
I forgot to post before but having expected to hate it, oh God I completely fell in love with it! Dreamy…
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Post by caa on May 5, 2022 7:00:46 GMT
I went yesterday, thanks to people who told me about Troy, with a little bit of luck I found Troy quite quickly getting there early. I saw the arrival of the Greeks and the death of a Trojan princess. Troy as others have said is full I detail. I followed one character through a wardrobe which was fun and reminded me of other Punchdrunk shows. If anything Troy is full of rooms but sadly not much action not many characters in the rooms, I would say that I spent most of the evening in Troy.
In Troy is the bar and the bar acts as good spot to recharge and as I discovered is quite easy to get to Mycenae, I noticed that the bar got very busy which I think says much about the show. In Myceanae, I saw the marriage and death of Iphigenia and some other scenes, I really liked her bedroom which was full of detail. Myceanae isn't as good as Troy in detail (it has scale) but did seem to have more going on at least in terms of Greek drama. But where is the House of Aegisthus?
As I left I asked one of the staff, is that all? I guess I meant after spending almost three hours it didn't feel that I had really understood the production. Its not a play, the actors don't speak, things are repeated so that its possible to see the same scene repeated. But as its unclear who they are I guess my feelings are it was good, but as someone who booked when the tickets first went on sale (I feel that paid too much) I should have waited, and got a Time Out ticket. Don't get me wrong its good in places, but they really need to bring more of it to life as so many areas are dead spaces. A tip to those in Troy there is a map of Troy on one of the walls and I found a guide map in one of the rooms.
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Post by digne on May 7, 2022 15:09:13 GMT
It's interesting seeing such a mixed response here because I've never been to a Punchdrunk show before, was indeed dreading it in some way, and yet had such a good time that I'm really looking forward now to seeing it again in three weeks (and maybe again after that if I can get those cheap Time Out tickets).
My main anxiety was the thought of getting lost walking all alone through a maze of empty rooms in a giant abandoned warehouse - except for the first few minutes where I found myself alone walking through dark corridors, I was never alone again. In fact, I would say there were too many people there. So often I was watching an interesting scene but then decided not to follow the actor because there was already of throng of thirty people rushing after them and there was no way to make it through the people in between.
At other times, I saw an actor take an audience member into a tiny room in Troy and sit down on a couch with him and stroke his hair, and immediately six other people would squeeze in with them although the room barely offered enough space for two.
Also, after having read earlier in the thread that someone missed all of Troy, I vaguely remembered the directions someone else gave and so immediately made my way into Troy - only to realize at the end that this meant I'd missed exploring all of Mycenae, which I only found at the very end when an actor led us there for the final scene. I remembered that big open space from where we first came in, but just couldn't find my way back there from Troy.
The friend I'd come with meanwhile had explored Mycenae but missed the final scene there, so we had a great journey home trying to puzzle out what we'd seen (I thought I'd seen the death of Iphigenia, but it turns out I missed out on that due to missing Mycenae and had instead watched the death of Polyxena).
I managed to see most of Polymestor's loop too, mostly because I kept getting lost in the maze of Troy and couldn't find my way back out, even though I found the bar twice. But those were definitely some of my favourite moments, together with the big finale.
I don't think I miss a more coherent narrative - I'd come expecting an experience, not a play, and that was definitely an experience. Also I found I really enjoyed the freedom of wandering around as I liked, abandoning a room or an actor after a minute if they didn't hold my attention because at least in my three hours in there, pretty much every time I turned around a corner I found new action happening.
I can't compare it to other productions, of course, and you can't miss what you've never seen. I'm also not sure I liked it enough to want to pay £80 several times - but I'd be happy to do it with those £25 rush tickets.
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Post by mkb on Jul 19, 2022 11:11:16 GMT
Cancelled tonight due to heat according to a Punchdrunk Tweet. I'm astonished they didn't install air-conditioning in this venue. It was already toastie in the Spring here.
I gather at least one previous show started 30 minutes late and only did two loops, to protect performers, with no partial refunds offered.
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Jul 19, 2022 12:31:08 GMT
They send out an email saying that during the heatwave the show will only be two loops, with the first 30 minutes dedicated to private exploring, in order to protect the cast. I believe people did have the option to re-book.
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Post by andrew on Jul 24, 2022 15:46:35 GMT
I went last night and really enjoyed it. I hadn't seen a Punchdrunk before so perhaps the concept being new to me made me enjoy the novelty of it more, but I really loved it. I split up from my group of 4 from the museum onwards, and we spent the rest of the evening until 1am dissecting what we'd seen and piecing it together. I'd had a brief read of the wikipedia pages for the plays of Hecuba and the Oresteia beforehand to remind myself of the main characters, and I think that was absolutely essential. I agree generally with the point that you shouldn't have to do homework before seeing a piece of theatre, and perhaps the creators are overestimating the general publics understanding of Greek mythology, but having put in the research I was richly rewarded.
It was absolutely sweltering in there though, wear as few square inches of clothing as you possibly can. And was still on 2 loops, which ultimately probably made it a less tiring experience but also I feel made me miss an awful lot of the main Troy moments, due to bad luck.
I'd gladly go back, and had an excellent evening.
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Post by JJShaw on Jul 24, 2022 20:18:47 GMT
The rush tickets with TineOut have ended now, do we think there will be another way to get relatively cheap tickets for the run? It's going until December (?)
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