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Post by richey on Jun 13, 2020 10:17:27 GMT
Apparently channel 5 showed an episode of the Golden Girls earlier this week with a warning that it contained views which reflected the times it was originally broadcast.
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 13, 2020 10:19:15 GMT
I'm with you - I’d much prefer to never hear the word uttered by anyone ever again. But far be it from me, a white man, to tell black communities to stop using the n-word. That's a conversation for black communities to have, if they choose to have it. Thanks for the link to the article, I shall read it in the morning! So you only want to police the rules of Art for white people. Phew! For a minute I thought you were being irrational. I'm not going to start telling black people what they can and cannot do about a word that only they know how much harm it causes them. But it should never, ever be heard coming from a white person in this day and age. I literally cannot believe I’m having this conversation. If you want to talk about irrationality, how about we remember that out of the two of us, it seems that you can't function if you don't hear the n-word.
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Post by londonpostie on Jun 13, 2020 11:33:20 GMT
"I literally cannot believe". Literally no one needs you to tell them what they should do. And, in fact, you can only get away with this crap on the internet becasue out here in real life people would be very direct in explaining that to you.
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 13, 2020 12:00:52 GMT
"I literally cannot believe". Literally no one needs you to tell them what they should do. And, in fact, you can only get away with this crap on the internet becasue out here in real life people would be very direct in explaining that to you. If you can't see that the n-word is wrong, then yes you need to be told what to do. Ok, one very simple question for you. Just a yes or no will do, and I will assume that no reply also means yes. Do you wish you could use the n-word?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 12:03:17 GMT
What about theatre shows? Can Book of Mormon come back after all this? I’d be astonished if it did. I think there needs to be a shift in the way that shows are written/cast as well before shutting down entire shows should be considered. Whilst the Book of Mormon is obviously an incredibly problematic piece (for every section of society) it would again significantly reduce the number of roles written for performers in the BAME community. I think that casting directors would need to seriously rethink their approaches to casting typically white roles. Even better than that, theatre should look to opening new roles in new material written for, and by, POC.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jun 13, 2020 12:07:06 GMT
If they tried to cut all the problematic bits out of BOM there’d be nowt left! 😆
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Post by talkingheads on Jun 13, 2020 12:11:00 GMT
If they tried to cut all the problematic bits out of BOM there’d be nowt left! 😆 It would be like showing Eastenders without the shouting. You'd only have the opening and closing credits left.
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Post by londonpostie on Jun 13, 2020 12:21:39 GMT
"I literally cannot believe". Literally no one needs you to tell them what they should do. And, in fact, you can only get away with this crap on the internet becasue out here in real life people would be very direct in explaining that to you. If you can't see that the n-word is wrong, then yes you need to be told what to do. Ok, one very simple question for you. Just a yes or no will do, and I will assume that no reply also means yes. Do you wish you could use the n-word? LOL.
Ok, one very simple question for you. Don't you wish you had a real life off the internet.
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 13, 2020 12:28:05 GMT
If you can't see that the n-word is wrong, then yes you need to be told what to do. Ok, one very simple question for you. Just a yes or no will do, and I will assume that no reply also means yes. Do you wish you could use the n-word? LOL.
Ok, one very simple question for you. Don't you wish you had a real life off the internet.
Sorry are we not both having this conversation or did I miss something? Anyway, I mean yes that'd be lovely but I’ve got nowhere to go at the moment so the internet will have to do. I will take your avoidance of the question I asked to tell me everything I need to know! I'm sure Dave25 will be thrilled to have you in his club.
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Post by Dawnstar on Jun 13, 2020 12:35:44 GMT
It’s surprising that black face was even acceptable in the 2000s. The one I remember wincing at the time was at Kevin Bishop spoofing Keisha from the Sugababes in blackface and that was only 12 years ago 2010s in some countries. Among the plethora of productions streamed in the last few months I've seen a Zauberflote from the Wiener Staatsoper filmed in 2017 that had Monostatos in blackface (which was traditional but certainly hasn't been done in the UK for some time) & the Bolshoi's La Bayadere filmed I think only last year that had child dancers in blackface. I was certainly surprised by both instances.
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Post by marob on Jun 13, 2020 13:06:51 GMT
Why wouldn't Book of Mormon come back? There's always an appetite for stuff that's considered risque or offensive, and as a show from the creators of South Park, that's it's main selling point. People like laughing at things that they "shouldn't." And it must make a ton of money because even on tour the ticket prices are ridiculous.
Sometimes a bit of controversy helps. I was looking at offers on DVD/bluray website Zoom earlier and noticed their bestselling title is currently the Fawlty Towers boxset. Checked on Amazon and it's at no. 2 there, but it's also out of stock, so would probably be higher.
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Post by Dr Tom on Jun 13, 2020 13:21:47 GMT
I think we also need to ask the question about who should make the decision about what different groups of people find offensive.
From my experience, the theatre-going audience in London is primarily, but not exclusively, white and East Asian. Audience demographics of course vary between shows. If you were to consider, say, The Lion King, the demographics are different again.
The Book of Mormon is of its time, but it also heavily ridicules many different groups of people. I'd like to think the audience knows that and can separate parody from genuine attempts at offence. There are plenty of jokes aimed at the (as they are referred to in the show) "white boys". Whether the show is funny or not is an entirely different debate, but the same could be said about questionable TV shows of the same ilk like Family Guy or South Park.
In the 2011 Census for England and Wales, 5.5% of the population were said to be or black or mixed ethnicity. The percentage today is likely to be higher. It is obviously impossible to judge people's ethnicity from a casual look around a theatre audience, but I would generally say that the percentage of black and mixed ethnicity people attending most theatre performances is much lower than 5.5%. Even a show like Hamilton, designed to be inclusive and with the few roles usually played by white actors there for comic relief, does not attract this percentage. The reasons for this are many and perhaps we need to be asking how to attract more black and mixed ethnicity people to the theatre. There may be social and economic reasons, there may be an aspect about how welcoming the theatre feels, but there is also the fact that different people like and appreciate different forms of entertainment. For instance, a colleague of mine said she had never been to a theatre growing up or even considered going, but asked to accompany me one evening as she would "try anything once" (that hasn't happened yet due to the closures).
From attending BOM in London, I would say it attracted a higher percentage of black and mixed ethnicity audience members than Hamilton. Still not 5.5%, but that's rare at any theatre. The percentage was definitely lower when I saw BOM in Manchester, but that may also say something about local demographics (by the same token, you might argue that the percentage of black and mixed ethnicity people living in London is higher). But, underlying all of this, there are ways in which pulling a show could also be harmful.
As a final aside, is it going to be acceptable to resume performances of Hamilton? After all, it glorifies (among others) George Washington, who made his fortune off the back of slaves, resisted movements to free them and allegedly even used their teeth to make his own dentures. Even Hamilton himself apparently bought and sold slaves. This question is not asked with judgement, but there is certainly the potential of a slippery slope off the back of many well-meaning changes and developments.
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Post by zak97 on Jun 13, 2020 14:14:07 GMT
What about theatre shows? Can Book of Mormon come back after all this? I’d be astonished if it did. This crossed my mind. There is a line in the shown (in ‘I believe’ possibly) where Elder Price says (in reference to a past decade) ‘when God changed his mind about black people’.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 14:21:14 GMT
What about theatre shows? Can Book of Mormon come back after all this? I’d be astonished if it did. This crossed my mind. There is a line in the shown (in ‘I believe’ possibly) where Elder Price says (in reference to a past decade) ‘when God changed his mind about black people’. but....but...but....isnt that the character saying that??? it isnt the author. its satire. its that characters views on the world and we laugh at him not with him. there are racist characters in To Kill a Mockingbird, should that still be put on?
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Post by zak97 on Jun 13, 2020 14:27:53 GMT
This crossed my mind. There is a line in the shown (in ‘I believe’ possibly) where Elder Price says (in reference to a past decade) ‘when God changed his mind about black people’. but....but...but....isnt that the character saying that??? it isnt the author. its satire. its that characters views on the world and we laugh at him not with him. there are racist characters in To Kill a Mockingbird, should that still be put on? That was the first line that came to mind, and I recognise your point and does make sense about the character saying. Depends I guess whether an audience is willing to acknowledge that. I do think though there has been a simplification of the issue of racism, and it’s prominence has only recently been properly highlighted and so, I can’t help but think so people will have been laughing with the character/agreeing with the character.
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Post by sf on Jun 13, 2020 16:01:31 GMT
There are issues with Book of Mormon, although that line in I Believe isn't one of them. The show is a blunt-instrument satire which takes on a lot of targets, including white saviour narratives about Africa, but it's not always as clever as it thinks it is and it's sometimes guilty of perpetuating stereotypes when it thinks it's exposing them.
More problematic in many ways is something like The King And I - a beloved classic which takes an arguably extremely patronising colonialist view of the country in which it's set, and which is considered offensive there.
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Post by xanady on Jun 14, 2020 23:30:41 GMT
An interesting issue is whether the date when the show was first written should come into play as a mitigating factor. One argument would be that the sensibility of a 2020 audience is markedly different to that of the 1930s-50s when some of the legendary musicals were written. Do we censor/revise/mothball classic musicals or perform them as originally intended and make some kind of disclaimer announcement or warning before the show starts or in the programme/ publicity material?
As an aside, I tried to explain Jolson and the Minstrels shows to my teen daughter today and she was incredulous.She thought I was making it all up(!)
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Post by talkingheads on Jun 14, 2020 23:56:18 GMT
On the topic of Love Thy Neighbour, Jack Smethurst's son posted a beautiful Twitter thread about growing up around the show:
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Post by xanady on Jun 15, 2020 9:08:19 GMT
Andy H has effectively ‘moved’ discussion of BOM from another thread.He contends that because black actors have been in the show then that appears to validate its existence? A fair point to make except that I’ve actually had an ex pupil in the show....he’s black..he couldn’t get work anywhere else...he did it to pay the bills and put food on the table...he now deeply,deeply regrets being in it.
Anyway,time to move on...too much negativity in this God-awful sh**ty world atm as it is without my discussing this show any further.I regret bringing the damn thing up in the first place. Cheers
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 11:09:14 GMT
BOM is out to offend everyone. Every person on that stage is a stereotype. Its not singleing any out. Everything that is referenced is based in fact.
The line about God changing his mind avout black people was because Mormons wouldnt allow black clergy. Why is that problematic?
Xandy - can i ask why your friend deeply regretted being in the show?
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Post by sf on Jun 15, 2020 11:26:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 13:53:48 GMT
I would also argue that we’ve seen the last of Avenue Q in its current form, or at least we should’ve done. If it does survive then some heavy rewrites will no doubt be needed, starting with cutting the obvious number.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jun 15, 2020 14:19:04 GMT
Everyone's a little bit racist should not be cut - the message behind it isn't celebrating racism, it is acknowledging that such attitudes exist and challenges them. It would be wrong for theatre to pretend that racism isn't an issue - humour can be a powerful tool in tackling hate.
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Post by sf on Jun 15, 2020 15:52:27 GMT
Everyone's a little bit racist should not be cut - the message behind it isn't celebrating racism, it is acknowledging that such attitudes exist and challenges them. It would be wrong for theatre to pretend that racism isn't an issue - humour can be a powerful tool in tackling hate.
Right.
'The More You Ruv Someone', on the other hand, does nothing more than poke fun at a stereotype, and the fact that it's an accurate stereotype - there's plenty of bad English signage in Japan that substitutes R for L or vice versa - doesn't entirely get it a free pass.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jun 15, 2020 15:53:48 GMT
That number is made a lot worse when the performer is white... (which happens far more often than it should, as does the casting of a white Gary)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 15:55:47 GMT
Everyone's a little bit racist should not be cut - the message behind it isn't celebrating racism, it is acknowledging that such attitudes exist and challenges them. It would be wrong for theatre to pretend that racism isn't an issue - humour can be a powerful tool in tackling hate. I disagree that it challenges them. When you’re sat in a theatre and you’re surrounded by hundreds of people laughing at that song I’d argue that it’s less hilarious if you yourself have been the subject of racial discrimination.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 16:24:54 GMT
When I was at university - mid 00s - I did a project on changing attitudes and showed parts of Love Thy Neighbour to my seminar group (approved by the tutor) - and they were not happy with the content at all. There is a reason why it’s not available (and I had to try and find it pre YouTube etc) and it has to be one the BBC’s most embarrassing shows.
Basically I showed an episode about the main white character wanting to move because he was sick of his black neighbour. Anyway, a valuation took place and he was very happy with it, until the estate agent found out the neighbours were black - and he quickly dropped the valuation and said the house was now worth only a fraction... the punchline of course being they were stuck living next door to each other. But this was prime time BBC comedy.
Love Thy Neighbour should be shown and taught in school in my opinion - I actually think a lot of white people (especially kids) have never seen outright racism and this just highlights the absurdity of it. Plus it’s important to contextualise how far we have come and how far we still have to go. Of course it will never happen, but it would be a positive step for the BBC to reclaim ownership over their production (rather than pretend it doesn’t exist) and repurpose into something positive.
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Post by Jon on Jun 15, 2020 16:31:28 GMT
When I was at university - mid 00s - I did a project on changing attitudes and showed parts of Love Thy Neighbour to my seminar group (approved by the tutor) - and they were not happy with the content at all. There is a reason why it’s not available (and I had to try and find it pre YouTube etc) and it has to be one the BBC’s most embarrassing shows. Basically I showed an episode about the main white character wanting to move because he was sick of his black neighbour. Anyway, a valuation took place and he was very happy with it, until the estate agent found out the neighbours were black - and he quickly dropped the valuation and said the house was now worth only a fraction... the punchline of course being they were stuck living next door to each other. But this was prime time BBC comedy. Love Thy Neighbour should be shown and taught in school in my opinion - I actually think a lot of white people (especially kids) have never seen outright racism and this just highlights the absurdity of it. Plus it’s important to contextualise how far we have come and how far we still have to go. Of course it will never happen, but it would be a positive step for the BBC to reclaim ownership over their production (rather than pretend it doesn’t exist) and repurpose into something positive. The BBC won't do anything about it because Love Thy Neighbour was an ITV show.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 16:34:12 GMT
I would also argue that we’ve seen the last of Avenue Q in its current form, or at least we should’ve done. If it does survive then some heavy rewrites will no doubt be needed, starting with cutting the obvious number. Not at all. Avenue Q is a positive show and one designed for adults, not kids. EALBR is a great song and the intention is obvious - owning your racism, whether you’re actually racist or not. Which is surely what part of the BLM moment is about - recognising embedded, systematic racism. The song nor show does not glorify racism, but uses humour to make and deliver its points: that racism is stupid.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 16:37:17 GMT
When I was at university - mid 00s - I did a project on changing attitudes and showed parts of Love Thy Neighbour to my seminar group (approved by the tutor) - and they were not happy with the content at all. There is a reason why it’s not available (and I had to try and find it pre YouTube etc) and it has to be one the BBC’s most embarrassing shows. Basically I showed an episode about the main white character wanting to move because he was sick of his black neighbour. Anyway, a valuation took place and he was very happy with it, until the estate agent found out the neighbours were black - and he quickly dropped the valuation and said the house was now worth only a fraction... the punchline of course being they were stuck living next door to each other. But this was prime time BBC comedy. Love Thy Neighbour should be shown and taught in school in my opinion - I actually think a lot of white people (especially kids) have never seen outright racism and this just highlights the absurdity of it. Plus it’s important to contextualise how far we have come and how far we still have to go. Of course it will never happen, but it would be a positive step for the BBC to reclaim ownership over their production (rather than pretend it doesn’t exist) and repurpose into something positive. The BBC won't do anything about it because Love Thy Neighbour was an ITV show. Oh, maybe that’s why I failed! Joking obviously (I passed), but it’s 15 years since I saw it and I wasn’t born when it was out. My bad. Even so, repurposing it got educational purposes sounds like a good idea imo.
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