2,505 posts
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Post by zahidf on Nov 11, 2021 8:59:31 GMT
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311 posts
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Post by olliebean on Nov 11, 2021 9:22:21 GMT
While I essentially agree with the idea that people working in healthcare ought to be expected to have taken the necessary steps to minimise their risk of spreading disease (in this case, being vaccinated against coronavirus), it's also difficult not to interpret the timing of this as being calculated to drive more public healthcare workers out of the industry just when they are likely to be needed, thus propping up the specious argument that the NHS can't cope as it is and needs to be privatised further.
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Post by zahidf on Nov 11, 2021 10:00:30 GMT
While I essentially agree with the idea that people working in healthcare ought to be expected to have taken the necessary steps to minimise their risk of spreading disease (in this case, being vaccinated against coronavirus), it's also difficult not to interpret the timing of this as being calculated to drive more public healthcare workers out of the industry just when they are likely to be needed, thus propping up the specious argument that the NHS can't cope as it is and needs to be privatised further. The people wanting forced vaccinations with health care staff don't seem to either recognise the consequences of such, or care what the overall effects on healthcare will be. Too narrowly focused on one now endemic disease and not looking at the bigger picture. |
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 11, 2021 11:25:36 GMT
If people are so selfish as if to walk away from what they calling a calling because they won’t have two simple vaccinations then I consider that their are simply nasty people.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2021 11:57:27 GMT
While I essentially agree with the idea that people working in healthcare ought to be expected to have taken the necessary steps to minimise their risk of spreading disease (in this case, being vaccinated against coronavirus), it's also difficult not to interpret the timing of this as being calculated to drive more public healthcare workers out of the industry just when they are likely to be needed, thus propping up the specious argument that the NHS can't cope as it is and needs to be privatised further. The people wanting forced vaccinations with health care staff don't seem to either recognise the consequences of such, or care what the overall effects on healthcare will be. Too narrowly focused on one now endemic disease and not looking at the bigger picture. On the contrary, you are the one ignoring the bigger picture. Covid is currently taking up NHS resources that could be better served elsewhere. Vaccines vastly reduce the number of people becoming so ill from Covid that they take up NHS resources. Getting vaccinated is the bigger picture and if healthcare workers won't do so then they are exacerbating the problem for selfish and baseless reasons. I've just had to go home from work and arrange a test because someone I was in contact with has tested positive. That is a huge waste of my time and ecomomic productivity. If spread was reduced and everyone was vaccinated I expect it would be much less likely that I would have to do that. The bottom line though is that no-one has put forward any good reason not to get vaccinated, nor any reason that is not entirely self-centred and frankly willingly ignorant. People who are not vaccinated (save for those who are properly exempt) should be treated differently to those of us who have cared enough to be vaccinated, as it is entirely their own choice. |
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Post by zahidf on Nov 11, 2021 13:03:59 GMT
The people wanting forced vaccinations with health care staff don't seem to either recognise the consequences of such, or care what the overall effects on healthcare will be. Too narrowly focused on one now endemic disease and not looking at the bigger picture. On the contrary, you are the one ignoring the bigger picture. Covid is currently taking up NHS resources that could be better served elsewhere. Vaccines vastly reduce the number of people becoming so ill from Covid that they take up NHS resources. Getting vaccinated is the bigger picture and if healthcare workers won't do so then they are exacerbating the problem for selfish and baseless reasons. I've just had to go home from work and arrange a test because someone I was in contact with has tested positive. That is a huge waste of my time and ecomomic productivity. If spread was reduced and everyone was vaccinated I expect it would be much less likely that I would have to do that. The bottom line though is that no-one has put forward any good reason not to get vaccinated, nor any reason that is not entirely self-centred and frankly willingly ignorant. People who are not vaccinated (save for those who are properly exempt) should be treated differently to those of us who have cared enough to be vaccinated, as it is entirely their own choice. But you've ignored my main point. It doesn't really matter what you think about why someone doesn't want to get vaccinated. If they decide not to have it, then the care homes and NHS will have MASSIVE issues in terms of staff. I understand the benefits of vaccination, I'm not disputing that. What's your solution for thousands of people resigning over the issue? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2021 13:36:10 GMT
But you've ignored my main point. It doesn't really matter what you think about why someone doesn't want to get vaccinated. If they decide not to have it, then the care homes and NHS will have MASSIVE issues in terms of staff. I understand the benefits of vaccination, I'm not disputing that. What's your solution for thousands of people resigning over the issue? If that actually happens. In New York there were scare stories about how a vaccine mandate would lead to 10,000 police officers being suspended. In the end it was 34. It turns out that most people aren't so stupid as to let some memes on Facebook tell them to throw away their careers.
Part of the problem is people like you overdramatising the situation. You keep referring to it as a "medical procedure" as if people were being ordered to donate a kidney. It's a routine vaccination: an extremely well tested and well understood thing that most people treat as a triviality barely worthy of notice. You don't see this sort of insane frenzy over things like tetanus or flu, and you don't see people demanding their freedom when they have to have their shots before going abroad. So what's so special now? Why do we suddenly have to pay attention to every idiot who is so utterly lacking in sapience that they can look at someone with several decades of medical experience and someone posting memes on social media and not be able to work out which of the two to believe?
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Post by Jonnyboy on Nov 11, 2021 13:37:16 GMT
It’s a shame it’s come to mandatory vaccinations. But what good doctor is waiting to see the ‘long term effects’ of a vaccine?!
Let’s ignore the principles of vaccination and see the long term effects of a deadly disease then, shall we?!
Surely the vaccine cannot possibly be worse than the disease itself. That’s kind of the point. What are people waiting for? Are the vaccinated going to grow horns two years later? Eight months down the line we start hopping instead of walking?
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Post by zahidf on Nov 11, 2021 13:50:23 GMT
But you've ignored my main point. It doesn't really matter what you think about why someone doesn't want to get vaccinated. If they decide not to have it, then the care homes and NHS will have MASSIVE issues in terms of staff. I understand the benefits of vaccination, I'm not disputing that. What's your solution for thousands of people resigning over the issue? If that actually happens. In New York there were scare stories about how a vaccine mandate would lead to 10,000 police officers being suspended. In the end it was 34. It turns out that most people aren't so stupid as to let some memes on Facebook tell them to throw away their careers.
Part of the problem is people like you overdramatising the situation. You keep referring to it as a "medical procedure" as if people were being ordered to donate a kidney. It's a routine vaccination: an extremely well tested and well understood thing that most people treat as a triviality barely worthy of notice. You don't see this sort of insane frenzy over things like tetanus or flu, and you don't see people demanding their freedom when they have to have their shots before going abroad. So what's so special now? Why do we suddenly have to pay attention to every idiot who is so utterly lacking in sapience that they can look at someone with several decades of medical experience and someone posting memes on social media and not be able to work out which of the two to believe?
But I've posted several things showing it isn't a minor thing comparable to the NYC cops (mainly cos the money being paid to care staff is a lot less). Care homes are saying they are losing staff over it, enough to have to close homes and not take in NHS referrals Again it doesn't matter what we think about rhe vaccine: people who don't want to take it are leaving their low paid care home work in favour of other positions. What's your solution to this issue other than have a go at their intelligence and act like there isn't going to be a recruitment issue? |
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Post by lynette on Nov 11, 2021 14:24:52 GMT
Those of us who are old enough to understand the miracle of earlier vaccinations - polio for example- find it difficult to understand the position of people who do not want to be vaccinated. I wonder how they feel about the regular kids’ vaccinations, about the relatively new cervical cancer jabs for girls and now also for boys or the meningitis offered to students recently when there was an outbreak. What , I wonder , do they say when required to have a yellow fever jab to enter certain countries? Some of the carers do not have a UK background but perhaps one which did not have this kind of vaccination programme. For them this is ‘new’ and together with the people who see everything as part of a conspiracy to control us and those who are not gonna let anything get into their bodies ( most of whom had the usual UK jabs as children but don't remember 😁) we have a problem.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2021 14:31:45 GMT
If that actually happens. In New York there were scare stories about how a vaccine mandate would lead to 10,000 police officers being suspended. In the end it was 34. It turns out that most people aren't so stupid as to let some memes on Facebook tell them to throw away their careers.
Part of the problem is people like you overdramatising the situation. You keep referring to it as a "medical procedure" as if people were being ordered to donate a kidney. It's a routine vaccination: an extremely well tested and well understood thing that most people treat as a triviality barely worthy of notice. You don't see this sort of insane frenzy over things like tetanus or flu, and you don't see people demanding their freedom when they have to have their shots before going abroad. So what's so special now? Why do we suddenly have to pay attention to every idiot who is so utterly lacking in sapience that they can look at someone with several decades of medical experience and someone posting memes on social media and not be able to work out which of the two to believe?
But I've posted several things showing it isn't a minor thing comparable to the NYC cops (mainly cos the money being paid to care staff is a lot less). Care homes are saying they are losing staff over it, enough to have to close homes and not take in NHS referrals Again it doesn't matter what we think about rhe vaccine: people who don't want to take it are leaving their low paid care home work in favour of other positions. What's your solution to this issue other than have a go at their intelligence and act like there isn't going to be a recruitment issue? What's your solution to the fact that NHS staff who refuse to be vaccinated are putting everyone they're purportedly caring for at risk, apart from apparently imagining that it's just not going to be an issue? I'm vulnerable myself; I don't want to be sitting in hospital with an underperforming heart wondering if I'll die because the people treating me haven't taken precautions to prevent infecting me because people like you are empowering them to put me in danger. Unvaccinated people shouldn't be in positions where they're dealing with the vulnerable. You're sitting there pondering hypotheticals; it is literally a matter of life and death for me.
Yes, it will be difficult if a large number of people refuse to get vaccinated, but just giving in to stupidity is not the answer. Vaccination ought to be mandatory, just as many other things are mandatory for everybody's safety. If that means there are fewer carers then so be it: better that than having carers who are actively killing the people they're supposed to be caring for. That's my solution: if they want to leave, let them leave. They can be replaced: the shortfall will only be temporary. There's nothing temporary about being dead.
And you still haven't addressed the issue of why this vaccine is such a problem when no others are.
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5,707 posts
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Post by lynette on Nov 11, 2021 14:34:15 GMT
Quite.
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2,505 posts
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Post by zahidf on Nov 11, 2021 14:39:12 GMT
But I've posted several things showing it isn't a minor thing comparable to the NYC cops (mainly cos the money being paid to care staff is a lot less). Care homes are saying they are losing staff over it, enough to have to close homes and not take in NHS referrals Again it doesn't matter what we think about rhe vaccine: people who don't want to take it are leaving their low paid care home work in favour of other positions. What's your solution to this issue other than have a go at their intelligence and act like there isn't going to be a recruitment issue? What's your solution to the fact that NHS staff who refuse to be vaccinated are putting everyone they're purportedly caring for at risk, apart from apparently imagining that it's just not going to be an issue? I'm vulnerable myself; I don't want to be sitting in hospital with an underperforming heart wondering if I'll die because the people treating me haven't taken precautions to prevent infecting me because people like you are empowering them to put me in danger. Unvaccinated people shouldn't be in positions where they're dealing with the vulnerable. You're sitting there pondering hypotheticals; it is literally a matter of life and death for me.
Yes, it will be difficult if a large number of people refuse to get vaccinated, but just giving in to stupidity is not the answer. Vaccination ought to be mandatory, just as many other things are mandatory for everybody's safety. If that means there are fewer carers then so be it: better that than having carers who are actively killing the people they're supposed to be caring for. That's my solution: if they want to leave, let them leave. They can be replaced: the shortfall will only be temporary. There's nothing temporary about being dead.
And you still haven't addressed the issue of why this vaccine is such a problem when no others are.
I don't have a problem with the vaccine. I am more than happy to recommend everyone having it. Its not as easy as saying we can just replace care home and NHS staff : its not a temporary shortfall with an eager pool of staff waiting to be recruited. And lack of staff will kill loads of people this winter anyway. if someone is doing daily testing and wearing the PPI, it'll be as safe for their patients. Vaccines will make it even safer, but its never going to be 100% safe. We never have had mandatory vaccinations in this country, and for good reason. I don't think the situation now warrants it, and if we open that door, its one we may find it difficult to close later. |
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 11, 2021 14:56:42 GMT
The UK is one of the few western countries to not have mandatory school vaccinations. I can see them coming in - they were being talked about before Covid.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 11, 2021 14:59:26 GMT
But you've ignored my main point. It doesn't really matter what you think about why someone doesn't want to get vaccinated. If they decide not to have it, then the care homes and NHS will have MASSIVE issues in terms of staff. I understand the benefits of vaccination, I'm not disputing that. What's your solution for thousands of people resigning over the issue? If that actually happens. In New York there were scare stories about how a vaccine mandate would lead to 10,000 police officers being suspended. In the end it was 34. It turns out that most people aren't so stupid as to let some memes on Facebook tell them to throw away their careers.
Part of the problem is people like you overdramatising the situation. You keep referring to it as a "medical procedure" as if people were being ordered to donate a kidney. It's a routine vaccination: an extremely well tested and well understood thing that most people treat as a triviality barely worthy of notice. You don't see this sort of insane frenzy over things like tetanus or flu, and you don't see people demanding their freedom when they have to have their shots before going abroad. So what's so special now? Why do we suddenly have to pay attention to every idiot who is so utterly lacking in sapience that they can look at someone with several decades of medical experience and someone posting memes on social media and not be able to work out which of the two to believe?
Actually that 34 figure doesn’t include the several thousand who are unvaccinated but are allowed to keep working pending appeals for exemptions on religious or medical grounds. It’s not likely any more than a handful of appeals will succeed through. The 34 is only the ones currently on unpaid leave. |
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Post by zahidf on Nov 11, 2021 15:28:48 GMT
Like who could have predicted this? After 1 day?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2021 15:56:19 GMT
if someone is doing daily testing and wearing the PPI, it'll be as safe for their patients. Vaccines will make it even safer, but its never going to be 100% safe. We never have had mandatory vaccinations in this country, and for good reason. I don't think the situation now warrants it, and if we open that door, its one we may find it difficult to close later. They may be wearing PPE in work but I dread to think what they are doing outside of it. If they are stupid enough not to take the vaccine then I suspect a large proportion will also belong to the equally-shortsighted anti-mask brigade. And they are all presumably socialising indoors as well, which is fine but a risk. Testing is fallible, and may not show infection quickly enough to get someone isolated before they could pass it on. So again, not an adequate excuse for refusing something that reduces that risk of transmission. They are wilfully neglecting to take a reasonable minor precaution that had been proven to reduce risk so they must face the consequences. And if that opens mandatory vaccination floodgates then fine by me. Happens in many largely sensible countries so no good reason for us to be any different. |
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 11, 2021 15:58:57 GMT
Like who could have predicted this? After 1 day? This is why Vaccine passports more widely will help. Someone might quit a care job if they can then go and work in a supermarket - but if they couldn’t go to work anywhere or enjoy any leisure activities they much more likely to then get vaccinated. |
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Post by TallPaul on Nov 11, 2021 16:17:11 GMT
Yes, vaccine passports have been such a roaring success in mainland Europe. Numbers aren't soaring, workers aren't on strike and there hasn't been a single demonstration. That's the way to go.
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Post by jess173 on Nov 11, 2021 17:54:38 GMT
Yes, vaccine passports have been such a roaring success in mainland Europe. Numbers aren't soaring, workers aren't on strike and there hasn't been a single demonstration. That's the way to go. Yup. Over here in Germany they always said vaccines weren’t mandatory. However the government did everything to enforce it on people. First they made everyone pay for Covid tests again which had been free until then. They hoped that people would rather get vaccinated than pay for regular tests. That didn’t work at all. And the number of tests went down as well. So now they made them free again but from Monday on almost everything except for work and grocery stores will only be allowed for vaccinated people or previously infected. I doubt that this will make people get the shot. The more pressure is applied the more they shut down and refuse the vaccine. We’ve got close to 70% of the population vaccinated and right now our infection numbers are the highest ever in this pandemic. They are even talking about lockdown again. This is going to be an interesting winter… |
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Post by Phantom of London on Nov 11, 2021 18:23:29 GMT
If people choose to not get vaccinated and/or not wear a mask and they catch Covid and suffer the consequences of the virus, which includes death, then sadly that one is on them, they have therefore simply died of belligerence. However that does give them the right to go on and possible infect other people. Same as why we don’t allow smoking in hospitals and other public places now, but if you want to sit in your own home and slowly kill yourself by a disgusting habit, that is fine and is your absolute right and civil liberty.
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Post by lynette on Nov 11, 2021 18:32:50 GMT
Keep us posted jess173
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 11, 2021 20:42:20 GMT
I believe that in Germany and Austria a strong majority of the critically ill patients are unvaccinated despite the majority of their age groups being fully vaccinated.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Nov 12, 2021 9:05:24 GMT
Reports of one region in Austria going to lockdown for the unvaccinated population. Very interesting
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 12, 2021 9:22:56 GMT
Reports of one region in Austria going to lockdown for the unvaccinated population. Very interesting While another is considering a referendum on if to introduce a vaccine mandate. |
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