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Post by danb on Apr 28, 2016 16:01:50 GMT
Being a smart arsed pedant helps no-one, and does not make for interesting reading...
it would be incredibly complicated, and enough leeway would need planning based on the length of the run. But at least it might so some way towards righting an incredibly unbalanced relationship between those providing a service vs the customer. (In reply to Steve)
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Post by steve10086 on Apr 28, 2016 16:31:14 GMT
Being a smart arsed pedant helps no-one, and does not make for interesting reading... it would be incredibly complicated, and enough leeway would need planning based on the length of the run. But at least it might so some way towards righting an incredibly unbalanced relationship between those providing a service vs the customer. (In reply to Steve) lol Suggesting ridiculous solutions to problems doesn't really help much either, to be honest :-) |
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Post by danb on Apr 28, 2016 16:40:09 GMT
Being a smart arsed pedant helps no-one, and does not make for interesting reading... it would be incredibly complicated, and enough leeway would need planning based on the length of the run. But at least it might so some way towards righting an incredibly unbalanced relationship between those providing a service vs the customer. (In reply to Steve) lol Suggesting ridiculous solutions to problems doesn't really help much either, to be honest :-) Imagine the fuss if 'x' considered themselves important enough to need extra days scheduling, but their producer hadn't thought them worthy...they could film that too  ? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 17:08:25 GMT
Feelings come into play as far as people's disappointment is concerned but they have absolutely nothing to do with what people are entitled to get, and what has me riled up about this is the number of people who are saying things like "it's false advertising" or "it's no different from a concert". Those statement are factually incorrect, and it's the facts that matter. False advertising is defined in law, and no matter how disappointed you are you don't get to decide what the law says and you don't get to decide what you're entitled to. The whole point of having such things defined in law is so businesses can operate without having to bow to every whim of the customer. It's great if the business goes further than it needs to in order to keep the customer happy, but too many people are treating the fact that some businesses do that as setting a precedent that means they get to tell the business how it has to respond when they don't get exactly what they want. "Whim"? We'll have to just disagree, Matthew... (I take it you are in "advertising"...!) No, I'm not! How dare you!  But I am quite familiar with consumer protection law, and I'm in the habit of reading through legislation to find out what it actually says instead of assuming it says what I'd like it to say. Most people think the law is there to protect them, and it doesn't occur to them that the same law is also there to protect the other side. The law gives you rights, but it also gives you obligations. It gives the business rights and obligations as well. It also imposes strict limits on both sides' rights and obligations so they don't unreasonably interfere with a business's ability to operate. It's a shield to protect you from unlimited risk, not a sword to allow you to take what you want. When it comes to advertising and promotion the business has an obligation to avoid misleading the customer, but the customer also has an obligation to understand what is being advertised and to know what factors the business cannot reasonably be expected to control. If you see a brochure picture of a hotel when you book your holiday you're entitled to expect that the hotel you get will be of the same standard as the one shown, but you're also expected to understand that the weather and the attractiveness of the guests is not what is being advertised. When you see a menu in a restaurant flyer you're expected to understand that the listed food is presented on a best-effort basis and sometimes certain items may be unavailable. And when you book to see someone playing a role in a show you are expected to understand that a role can be played by different people and that the person you get may not always be the person mentioned in the publicity. Even when the production makes a big deal of the star, you still have an obligation to understand that the star is an actor playing a role and the production is undertaking to provide the role, not the actor. No matter how disappointed you are, that doesn't grant you exemption from your duties and obligations with respect to differentiating between what a business is actually offering and what you hope to get. You don't get to turn round and say "I've unilaterally decided that this thing they can't control must be part of the contract, and so that means they have to give me compensation for breaking a contact that they didn't agree to". It's not your decision to make. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 17:26:50 GMT
Oh!
But businesses, any businesses, rely quite a bit on repeat business. You know, where customers who have had a good experience will go back. Time and time again in some cases. Then they will recommend the business to friends and family, colleagues and all sorts of people they have never met via the internet. And business is a two way thing, isn't it? The customer is pleased, so the business gets busy and makes more money. Sometimes the customer isn't pleased, and he makes a cheeky demand. The business owner knows that the customer is being a tinsy bit cheeky, and he could refuse... But to keep his business, and to stop him blabbing to all his mates what a sh*t business it's now become, the business makes a goodwill gesture, I believe it's called. This usually works. And before you know it, everyone is pleased.
I'd love to know what the ENO is planning as its extravaganza next year. I have a feeling that, whatever it is, a lot of customers will feel once bitten, twice shy. And then the ENO will have only had themselves to blame when they have even more tickets left to sell than they have had this year. Some might even hope it falls on its arse.
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Post by d'James on Apr 28, 2016 17:42:05 GMT
Yes. A lot of people who booked tickets will receive emails from now on and if anyone felt badly treated by them will probably just delete them straight away. I hope this whole debacle hasn't put some first time Theatre goers from trying again (even if it's at a different Theatre).
When booking tickets for this show, I never saw anything saying about the understudy stuff and how Glenn wasn't guaranteed. When the star is the selling point (for a lot of people, not everyone before anyone shouts at me), there should be a bold text separate statement with a box to tick rather than having it as part of the generals Ts and Cs (yes the general Ts and Cs cover them legally blah blah blah but this would be helpful and give the box office some extra back up). Of course there are multiple ticket sellers for most shows but it wouldn't be that much work to add it.
As I said on the actual Sunset Boulevard thread, maybe they should offer insurance if the star is off. Say £5 a ticket in case the star doesn't appear, that would doubly draw their attention to the fact that illness is a possibility. I wouldn't have taken it for my tickets, but for some people paying £150 a ticket, an extra £5 probably wouldn't be too much. Of course the terms of the insurance would depend on the show (e.g. only refunds and no exchanges, or the opposite, or both).
If Glenn Close had pulled out of the whole run early on it would've been on Watchdog and in all the papers, I reckon they would've had to back down just to save face. Then they would've had to find a new understudy etc.
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Post by littleflyer on Apr 28, 2016 17:49:17 GMT
Question is, would those tickets have been as much had Glenn Close (or another big name) not been in it? I tend to think no! Also personal annoyance and totally not to do with this subject but Funny Girl didn't sell out in 90 minutes. By 10:30 when it had all sold the tickets had been on general sale since midnight and for about 2-3 weeks to pre-sale. So really it sold out in about a month ? |
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Post by terrylondon79 on Apr 28, 2016 18:34:30 GMT
The worst thing is, judging from terms and conditions that people tick on the Eno website, (does anyone ever read them??) they can change the production and/or cast without notice. So you could book for Sunset Boulevard starring Glenn Close, and get Barry Chuckle and Sue pollard, with a busker from the south bank playing the score on his casio keyboard.
I know it's extreme, but acceptable to the people defending the Eno and this production.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 18:39:31 GMT
That argument is creating a strawman though and it's quite offensive to understudies too. Whether it's Glenn Close, the second violin, or the conductor who needs a stand-in, they're going to provide someone of a suitable professional standard, not a couple of children dragged in off the street wearing giant coats and hoping you won't notice the orchestra is now an iPod. Waving the "well by YOUR logic" card around doesn't magically change the fact that at the end of the day the audience is still going to see a professional quality semi-staged production of Sunset Boulevard, which is what their ticket money has paid for. And it's not "by YOUR logic", it's by the legal terms and conditions. Creating a bizarre fantasy worst-case scenario that would never even be considered doesn't change anybody's legal rights, and it's not going to convince the people who understand that that maybe you've got a good point after all.
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Post by terrylondon79 on Apr 28, 2016 18:45:45 GMT
Bit that's my point the Eno doesn't have to provide understudies to the standard they did. Anyone with an equity card could be drafted in. The understudies aren't listed on the Eno website prior to the show. That argument is creating a strawman though and it's quite offensive to understudies too. Whether it's Glenn Close, the second violin, or the conductor who needs a stand-in, they're going to provide someone of a suitable professional standard, not a couple of children dragged in off the street wearing giant coats and hoping you won't notice the orchestra is now an iPod. Waving the "well by YOUR logic" card around doesn't magically change the fact that at the end of the day the audience is still going to see a professional quality semi-staged production of Sunset Boulevard. And it's not "by YOUR logic", it's by the legal terms and conditions, so. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 19:53:41 GMT
Bit that's my point the Eno doesn't have to provide understudies to the standard they did. Anyone with an equity card could be drafted in. The understudies aren't listed on the Eno website prior to the show. It's not a matter of "anything goes". When you buy a ticket you're entering into a contract, and the production is required to fulfil that contract with a reasonable amount of care and skill. If they sell you a ticket to a show with a professional cast and full orchestra they could reasonably present the show with two of the ensemble absent and one missing keyboard, but they couldn't offer half a dozen FOH staff reading from scripts and a bloke with a kazoo. |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2016 19:52:09 GMT
To be honest, I can totally see why producers decide to say "[Celebrity Name] in ......." . It's going to get the audience in because Celebrites on stage are such a good hink at the moment and totally get people to come to their show. How can you blame a producer for trying to get more people to see their show?!
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Post by talkstageytome on May 14, 2016 9:48:31 GMT
It's just a shame that that is what they've had to resort to though. And now that the general public have seen [famous soap star/xfactor semifinalist] in a West End show, that's going to set the precedent for them, and they're probably going to be less likely to pay the same amount of money to be people who they consider to be nobodies in a play or musical the second time around.
Plus I personally don't like the way that celebrities draw all the attention towards them (which is a bit of an obvious observation but still...) and then you end up with screaming fans doing anything in their power to out-clap, out-laugh and out-scream their fellow fans. Or at least that's what I've experienced when seeing certain celebrities starring in shows.
That being said, I don't look down on the actual performers themselves, as if they prove that they've got the skills needed to pull off their role then everyone's a winner - the fans get to see their fave celebrity perform (which I can totally understand) and those nonplussed about the star can still enjoy the show to the same level as they would have had a theatre actor been cast instead.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2016 16:00:11 GMT
I've heard people complaining with celebrities being cast in musicals in London at the moment, but I can't even think of that many shows with celebrities in them?! I can only think of these so far:
•Funny Girl
•Dreamgirls
•Guys and Dolls
•The Bodyguard
•The Go Between
I can think of lots of touring shows with Celebrites though, nearly every one!! I think it's different with plays as you can get some great actors and actresses in plays!
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Post by shady23 on Jul 7, 2016 17:50:55 GMT
That depends on what your definition of a celebrity is.
A Z lister reality star?
Someone who has performed consistently high quality work in the West End for years?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2016 18:20:44 GMT
That depends on what your definition if a celebrity is. A Z lister reality star? Someone who has performed consistently high quality work in the West End for years? Well I wouldn't really call Rebel Wilson, Sheridan Smith, Amber Riley etc a Z-List Reality star |
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Post by shady23 on Jul 7, 2016 19:08:05 GMT
Nobody has called them Z Listers.
However, you rarely see stars of this calibre on UK Tours. It's more likely to be a woman who is seen to be a "star" as she used to be in Eastenders. My point is many people, including people who usually don't go to theatre, think "wow! That lass from the telly is in a show. Let's go". Where's a regular theatre goer may rather see someone well known to them from previous productions. Would your average person in the street know their name? Probably not.
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