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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2019 9:02:26 GMT
Let them eat scones.
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Post by londonpostie on Nov 28, 2019 10:23:07 GMT
Jam today jam tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2019 13:03:24 GMT
Is it damson jam?
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Post by Latecomer on Nov 29, 2019 12:50:01 GMT
I am just going to say Please Don’t vote Conservative! They have a dreadful plan for Brexit that will bring down this country and have no vision for this country. Labour has ambitious plans for where to take this country and a far better plan for Brexit (if it happens). On a personal note I for one and fed up with going to the theatre and walking past homeless people (for whatever reason) looking dirty and despairing on the streets. How can people be shelling out £95 for a theatre ticket to enjoy an evening out in all conscience when we have food banks and people who cannot afford basic decent housing and we CHARGE nurses £50,000 to do a degree to get a job in an underfunded crisis riven National Health Service? I see the cars in London, I see the shops that have security guards outside as only the rich are expected to enter. I see the huge houses in Hampstead and the new banks of investor apartments being built. Please, please vote for a different model and a more equal future. You may doubt that Labour will deliver but I can guaranteee that the Conservatives won’t. And you will not like the society of hatred and division that they cause. I am not silly or naive or gullible. I have a degree in Mathematics , I have been a teacher, I have worked as a Product Manager at Unilever, I work in Libraries, I am married to a systems analyst who worked for a multinational company for many years and I have 2 young adult children who have degrees (and the debt) and are making their ways in the world.I would personally be a little worse off under Labour. Go and look at YouGov Election page (google it) and work out whatever party can beat the Conservatives in your constituency and vote for them. The Tories will not make this country better. Ok, not going to argue this out with anyone on here, so feel free to wade in, but had to get it out there!!!  |
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Post by Latecomer on Nov 29, 2019 12:51:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 13:58:18 GMT
On a personal note I for one and fed up with going to the theatre and walking past homeless people (for whatever reason) looking dirty and despairing on the streets. How can people be shelling out £95 for a theatre ticket to enjoy an evening out in all conscience when we have food banks and people who cannot afford basic decent housing and we CHARGE nurses £50,000 to do a degree to get a job in an underfunded crisis riven National Health Service? I see the cars in London, I see the shops that have security guards outside as only the rich are expected to enter. I see the huge houses in Hampstead and the new banks of investor apartments being built. I will by no means be voting Conservative (nor Labour either for that matter, they don't have any more of a clue than Boris), but I'm afraid even if I were open to being persuaded you would have pretty much turned me against your argument to vote Labour entirely with this paragraph. It may shock you to know that there are people who exist who are paid what they would happily admit are ridiculous sums of money for what they do, but they work hard for that money, way beyond the 9-5, and they use some of that money for charitable donations to those who are working to combat homelessness and inequality, and in many cases volunteer their time to help as well (often supported by large company employers). And that's on top of contributing more in taxes and National Insurance. To judge them and say they have no conscience because they dare to treat themselves to a more expensive theatre seat sometimes is astonishingly patronising and betrays the very lack of comprehension of what many people who can afford the odd luxury do with the rest of their money that probably puts a lot of them off voting Labour. Higher salaries are predominantly earned (though I appreciate not always) and to penalise and patronise people for working hard and advancing in careers which pay well is not going to be particularly persuasive to those people... Just a thought. |
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Post by NeilVHughes on Nov 29, 2019 14:37:36 GMT
Always intrigued by the value of work and how hard work is perceived.
Having worked in manufacturing all my life and management for most of it, work can be simplified to two types
- Value Added - Transforming / Handling a product that the Customer/User/Participant is willing to pay for.
- Non/Value Added - providing the infrastructure to transform, basically the overheads.
(I did say simplified, many books available if you want to delve further)
We always associate the non-value added being of higher monetary value as we pay more to people in these positions.
If we perceive value adding as being primarily physical and non-value added as cerebral, determining who actually works the hardest is subjective, from my experience on the days I have worked on the shop floor I have always got home feeling I earned my money more than the days in the office with the only offset being a reduction in the stress which comes with responsibility.
When I walk round London the gap between the poor and the wealthy is obscene, people may have worked hard to earn the Porsche but I would find it personally morally repugnant to consume on that scale without giving back and contributing to the chances of other people having the same opportunities as me.
Being born in the UK is a fortunate twist of fate, most of the people who live in this world do not have what we take for granted which is easily forgotten.
If I earned more than £80,000 I would be proud to contribute more.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 15:03:32 GMT
When I walk round London the gap between the poor and the wealthy is obscene, people may have worked hard to earn the Porsche but I would find it personally morally repugnant to consume on that scale without giving back and contributing to the chances of other people having the same opportunities as me. Why are you assuming that such people don't give back though? Both your post and the one I commented on in the first place seem to be proceeding on the assumption that people who are paid more don't give back, which just isn't true. You can't judge someone just because they have a Porsche or buy a premium seat at the theatre, because you have no idea how much of their money they are contributing in tax, NI, charitable donations, even scholarships and sponsorships at the higher end. That's the point I'm trying to make, that generalisations in this regard just don't work. And I would disagree entirely that only physical work is value add - my desk job is entirely about value add through critical thinking and use of knowledge, so I am exhausted at the end of each day even though I haven't been doing manual labour, and feel as if I have contributed quite a lot as part of the team I work in. |
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Post by Latecomer on Nov 29, 2019 15:28:06 GMT
I’ll let you have as much money as you like when the neediest are properly looked after. I don’t doubt people give to charity but my point is that this is the job of the state. And if the state is not raising enough money through fair taxation and looking after society (and this includes the rich, who no doubt go to the library, use the NHS, the streets, the parks etc etc) then this is MORALLY WRONG.
So when I see someone driving a Porsche or spending obscene amounts of money on a meal I will judge. When everyone in this country has shelter, education, food and access to health care then feel free to buy your Porsche or 7 course meal.
As for charity - we didn’t need to have food banks I don’t want you to decide where to spend your money. I want experts to work out things that are fair for everyone.
In rich areas schools get more donations from parents. The whole system is messed up if Government fails it’s citizens.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 15:48:47 GMT
On tactical voting there are numerous sites, most constituencies show agreement but there are plenty where you need to do your own homework (look at local campaigns, any constituency polls, get a feel for who is really pushing (often other parties will back off a bit if they feel it is going elsewhere)). This site below compares them but probably the best guide is constituency polls. Other ways don't pick up local campaign strengths. tactical.vote/compare |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2019 18:05:53 GMT
I’m tickled a Labour voter thinks the people in those big houses in Hampstead are the enemy. From what I hear, they’re the ones supporting Corbyn! ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 0:57:07 GMT
So when I see someone driving a Porsche or spending obscene amounts of money on a meal I will judge. Do you judge people who scrounge on benefits and clog up council housing waiting lists (I'm not talking here about the people with legitimate issues that mean they are unable to work) the same way? They are contributing to society even less than the people who are earning high wages and paying commensurately high taxes! If you just look at the top end of the system then you are just perpetuating part of the problem. I want my taxes to go to help the people who actually need help, not the ones who are just too lazy to do anything. If that can't be guaranteed, then no wonder some people in the higher tax brackets use clever tax planning (which is legal) - why should I spend 12+ hours a day working hard if all I'm doing is paying for other people to laze around all day? The system needs to be fixed before you can get buy in from those who you are demanding pay for it. |
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Post by Latecomer on Nov 30, 2019 8:43:56 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47623277The problem is not unemployed “scrounging”. It’s worse than that.....Read this article and then tell me it’s them to blame. We need to rethink how we do stuff. The cleverest thing rich people do is try and make poor people blame other poor people for the problem. Austerity - “we are all in it together”. I don’t think that was or is true. But like mugs we fell for it....and when a library closed or a day care centre for the elderly was shut or a youth club closed we still believed it. The Governments (Tory and Labour) blamed the immigrants, they told you to hate these people....they had your job, they had your house, they had your doctors appointment, the school place your child wanted. It was a lie. They paid in more than they took. When a council house is sold the Local Authority gets to keep only 30% of the price to build a new one (!) and has to spend that money within 3 years or they have to give that 30% (along with the original 70% and interest on the 30%) to central government. In all walks of life there will be elements who cheat a system (look at the MPs expense scandal)....it’s not the Unemployed who are causing the mess we are in now.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Nov 30, 2019 11:14:32 GMT
The myth of the benefits scrounger is as deplorable as the immigration argument as scapegoating responsibility.
If we look at the DWP benefits statistical summary - Aug 2019
Excluding pensions, 7.4m claim benefits
Of which 0.9m can be classed as unemployed (JA / IS) of which 26% can be considered long term (OECD Data) lower than the any other G7 Country
Of which 6.5m can be classed as carers or unfit for work (AA / DLA / ESA / PIP)
From a capitalist perspective we have an almost too low unemployment rate as once it gets difficult to find workers the balance changes and workers can start negotiating better pay deals as was the case the last time unemployment was this low in the 60’s and early 70’s and what is likely triggering the extremely slow rise in wages over the last couple of years.
Of the 6.5m unable to work due to health any country that considers itself advanced has a duty of care to these individuals and if you look at how much they get the financial side of being ill is crippling without considering the health element.
Another area that is often overlooked is how many people in work claiming working tax credit and housing benefit. (Child and Working Tax Credits Statistics 2017/2018)
3.8m families and 6.7m children in families claiming tax credit.
Last figure I could find (2015) indicated 0.9m people in work claimed Housing Benefit.
What these figures show is that tax payers are subsidising business who do not pay their workers enough to live on and landlords who charge exorbitant rents.
i.e.
- people in work are helping companies which get away with paying low wages to top up what they pay their employees with state aid.
- people in work are subsidising the buy to let landlords knowing that the state will jump in to top up rents for people unable to afford the rent.
Apologies for another numbers post but, as always I do like numbers and will always where I can back up my opinions as factually as I can.
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Post by craig on Nov 30, 2019 12:09:28 GMT
Politically, we are in a truly sorry state.
I'm a centrist, believe in compromise and generally think collaboration is the best way of working. I find the current state of all three major political parties depressing beyond words. Genuinely don't know how I can vote for any of them with a clear conscience. Those leading our parties are all either deplorable or incompetent.
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Post by Dave25 on Nov 30, 2019 12:46:02 GMT
Politically, we are in a truly sorry state. I'm a centrist, believe in compromise and generally think collaboration is the best way of working. I find the current state of all three major political parties depressing beyond words. Genuinely don't know how I can vote for any of them with a clear conscience. Those leading our parties are all either deplorable or incompetent. Then vote Labour. It's the only party that treats the public somewhat like adults. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 13:03:12 GMT
Politically, we are in a truly sorry state. I'm a centrist, believe in compromise and generally think collaboration is the best way of working. I find the current state of all three major political parties depressing beyond words. Genuinely don't know how I can vote for any of them with a clear conscience. Those leading our parties are all either deplorable or incompetent. I feel you, entirely on this one. I believe that everyone should vote and always have done. I think all of those people who fought desperately for the vote but right now, I can't put my faith and trust in any of the parties. They are all making ludicrous statements. They have all done awful things. I truly don't know what to do. Part of me wants to vote, part of me really doesn't want to. |
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Post by NeilVHughes on Nov 30, 2019 13:13:22 GMT
The only advice I can give is ignore the personalities.
Read the manifesto’s and vote for the one closest to your values and after this election become active not passive.
The politicians only get away with diminishing democracy because WE let them.
Ignore the sound bite, this Country has the highest education levels we have ever had, information is easily available and the truth behind the sound bite easily researched.
We have allowed ourselves to become duped by a few billionaires who own the mainstream media who feed our paranoia.
I only became politically active this year when I felt This Country was being destroyed for the benefit of a few influential people knowing we cannot and will not think for ourselves.
We can make a difference it only takes the decision to hold these idiots in power to account and that begins with voting.
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Post by Latecomer on Nov 30, 2019 13:15:30 GMT
Politically, we are in a truly sorry state. I'm a centrist, believe in compromise and generally think collaboration is the best way of working. I find the current state of all three major political parties depressing beyond words. Genuinely don't know how I can vote for any of them with a clear conscience. Those leading our parties are all either deplorable or incompetent. The press has gaslighted us over Corbyn for years....if you look at what he has ACTUALLY achieved it is remarkable.When Boris Johnson recently announced that he is NOT cutting corporation tax as it would “save £6 billion” I gasped....do the Tories not believe that cutting taxes on business raises MORE money? Austerity is rolled back...who do you think we have to thank for that? I always get quite grumpy when people are critical of Corbyn - he knows facts and history. He is principled. He talks sense even when it would be easier not to. He is stubborn but if you look at Brexit he has listened and the party has moved but he has not thrown out democracy like the Lib Dems because he is right - if we ignore half the country it will create division (and I say this as a fervent remainder!) Why do you think he is in politics? Do you think he will leave and do the circuit of after dinner speaking, or get a well paid job with a bank afterwards? No. Read the manifesto. They have asked experts. The policy starts from belief and principle. For example they have abolished the Marriage Allowance that the Conservatives brought in as it discriminates against couples who are not married. My brother has been with his partners for 15 years and raised 2 children but he’s not allowed to claim as his relationship is seen as second rate? His front bench is class and yes, I include Diane Abbott in this as if you look back she warned about Windrush and her occasional slips with numbers are treated far more harshly than the Conservatives. Who would you rather have involved in the Brexit negotiations? Kier Stammer or those idiots we sent who hadn’t a clue about detail? I haven’t really met many people who deny that the Labour manifesto contains good ideas (even the borrowing to invest as interest rates are so low and it wouldn’t be out of line with other developed countries). People do doubt they could actually achieve it all...as we have lost faith in things being run well (private and public companies) but isn’t it better to have a go, properly to fix society? What is the choice if we don’t...my children will be in a world where things get worse and society gets ever more hateful. |
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Post by craig on Nov 30, 2019 14:58:05 GMT
Politically, we are in a truly sorry state. I'm a centrist, believe in compromise and generally think collaboration is the best way of working. I find the current state of all three major political parties depressing beyond words. Genuinely don't know how I can vote for any of them with a clear conscience. Those leading our parties are all either deplorable or incompetent. The press has gaslighted us over Corbyn for years....if you look at what he has ACTUALLY achieved it is remarkable.When Boris Johnson recently announced that he is NOT cutting corporation tax as it would “save £6 billion” I gasped....do the Tories not believe that cutting taxes on business raises MORE money? Austerity is rolled back...who do you think we have to thank for that? I always get quite grumpy when people are critical of Corbyn - he knows facts and history. He is principled. He talks sense even when it would be easier not to. He is stubborn but if you look at Brexit he has listened and the party has moved but he has not thrown out democracy like the Lib Dems because he is right - if we ignore half the country it will create division (and I say this as a fervent remainder!) Why do you think he is in politics? Do you think he will leave and do the circuit of after dinner speaking, or get a well paid job with a bank afterwards? No. Read the manifesto. They have asked experts. The policy starts from belief and principle. For example they have abolished the Marriage Allowance that the Conservatives brought in as it discriminates against couples who are not married. My brother has been with his partners for 15 years and raised 2 children but he’s not allowed to claim as his relationship is seen as second rate? His front bench is class and yes, I include Diane Abbott in this as if you look back she warned about Windrush and her occasional slips with numbers are treated far more harshly than the Conservatives. Who would you rather have involved in the Brexit negotiations? Kier Stammer or those idiots we sent who hadn’t a clue about detail? I haven’t really met many people who deny that the Labour manifesto contains good ideas (even the borrowing to invest as interest rates are so low and it wouldn’t be out of line with other developed countries). People do doubt they could actually achieve it all...as we have lost faith in things being run well (private and public companies) but isn’t it better to have a go, properly to fix society? What is the choice if we don’t...my children will be in a world where things get worse and society gets ever more hateful. My annoyance with Corbyn is not with his policies, although they are certainly to the left of my own. It is that he is unelectable. Sure, he has been treated appallingly by the press, and the reasons for that are nothing short of sinister. But the fact remains that he is unelectable and deeply unpopular. His refusal to stand down and the party's refusal to appoint a more unifying leader for the greater good is a disgrace. We can moan about how unfair it all is, but it's not going to win an election. Given the state we find ourselves in, this election should be an open goal for an even half credible opposition party. The scale of their failure during this election campaign is unprecedented. I'll eat my words if Labour manage to deprive the Tories a majority, but I'm not hopeful. Also, Labour is a wasted vote in my constituency, so I'll be voting (ex Tory a***hole candidate) Lib Dem through gritted teeth no doubt. I don't agree with the (ludicrous) idea of revoking Article 50 or many of their other policies but I can find major issues with all their manifestos. I'll be swallowing down sick in the voting booth, regardless. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 16:01:50 GMT
Labour is being kept out of power by its ideologues who so want a hard left government, that all of the good things a touch of moderation would bring to it are not acceptable to their cause. On the other hand, the Conservatives have been similarly changed by entryists, so that they are also prepared to destroy the country in pursuit of their hard right and libertarian goals.
So, do I vote for a party that I disagree on half their policies to stop a party who I agree with much less? Maybe the whole country needs to burn to bring it back to its senses.
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Post by Latecomer on Nov 30, 2019 17:26:40 GMT
Labour is being kept out of power by its ideologues who so want a hard left government, that all of the good things a touch of moderation would bring to it are not acceptable to their cause. On the other hand, the Conservatives have been similarly changed by entryists, so that they are also prepared to destroy the country in pursuit of their hard right and libertarian goals. So, do I vote for a party that I disagree on half their policies to stop a party who I agree with much less? Maybe the whole country needs to burn to bring it back to its senses. I think in Europe Labour’s policies would not be considered hard left! They are really not that radical. Plus the way our voting system works a Labour Government is hardly likely to get a majority these days (Scotland has seen to that). So the REAL question is....do you want Boris Johnson to get a large majority with unfettered power? Because it’s right there, in his manifesto....the Voter ID that would suppress voting and the “have a look at the courts” as they don’t think judicial review should be used on Government.....have a look if you don’t believe me. So short answer....do anything you can to stop the far Right. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 17:47:11 GMT
So when I see someone driving a Porsche or spending obscene amounts of money on a meal I will judge. I want my taxes to go to help the people who actually need help, not the ones who are just too lazy to do anything. If that can't be guaranteed, then no wonder some people in the higher tax brackets use clever tax planning (which is legal) - why should I spend 12+ hours a day working hard if all I'm doing is paying for other people to laze around all day? Precisely this. The hard left bunch holding sway in Labour right now are hellbent on punishing anyone who aspires to earn or achieve more in their lives. Make no mistake, they’ll happily increase taxes on the squeezed middle classes - the top earners have hidden their money away already - and hand it over to those who quite simply cba. Vote Labour this election? No thank you very much. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Nov 30, 2019 17:58:57 GMT
I want my taxes to go to help the people who actually need help, not the ones who are just too lazy to do anything. If that can't be guaranteed, then no wonder some people in the higher tax brackets use clever tax planning (which is legal) - why should I spend 12+ hours a day working hard if all I'm doing is paying for other people to laze around all day? Precisely this. The hard left bunch holding sway in Labour right now are hellbent on punishing anyone who aspires to earn or achieve more in their lives. Make no mistake, they’ll happily increase taxes on the squeezed middle classes - the top earners have hidden their money away already - and hand it over to those who quite simply cba. Vote Labour this election? No thank you very much. I thought I was the most left wing on the board... but Latecomer has blown me out of the water. Top five percent of earners at he moment Jean, those who can afford to pay a little more. |
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Post by londonpostie on Nov 30, 2019 18:18:55 GMT
So when I see someone driving a Porsche or spending obscene amounts of money on a meal I will judge. Do you judge people who scrounge on benefits and clog up council housing waiting lists (I'm not talking here about the people with legitimate issues that mean they are unable to work) the same way? This is stupid, mindless propaganda.
I work on social housing estates 4-4.5 hours most days. England and London has been at effectively full employment for 2-3 years now. I see unemplyed adults every day and I don't see a single one that isn't damaged - by their ex-partners, by their childhood, by drugs, by trauma, by PTSD as a result of what they experienced before arriving here. In years, I haven't spoken a single person who could work who is not working. What I do see is both parents working, and the father working for Uber at night in order to fund maths and English classes at the local after-school lessons place.
As for housing, I live in a borough with 24K council tenants, and 24K on the council waiting list. The Conservatives refused to build for almost a decade, during austerity. What I do see is people who have lived in one specific area their whole lives being moved away - the bedroom tax. I know of a woman and daughter who were forced to move to where she had no social or community support, and release their spare bedroom, after her youngest daughter died of cancer. That is Gov policy. She comes back to visit when people club together to buy her and her daughters a train fare.
I talk, I observe, I listen, and more days than not I shed tears at the waste of humanity, and also at the everyday examples of simple dignity and grace.
You talk nonsense. You have no idea what is going on in this country, the absolute misery of people who cannot get help, or guidance or support
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