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Post by Oliver on Nov 6, 2021 17:15:55 GMT
Lloyd Webber needs to accept that his shows are almost always better when he has absolutely nothing to do with them. If he has 'absolutely nothing to do with them' then how could they be his shows? It helps to think before you post. |
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Post by horton on Nov 6, 2021 17:19:32 GMT
I think what was implied was 'when he has nothing to do with anything other than composing duties'.
Just imagine if he had been allowed to proceed with his puerile concept for The Phantom of the Opera- a childish rip-off of The Rocky Horror Show. Thankfully those with stronger theatrical instincts, ie Hal Prince, saved ALW from his own awful judgement.
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Post by Oliver on Nov 6, 2021 17:30:41 GMT
I think what was implied was 'when he has nothing to do with anything other than composing duties'. Just imagine if he had been allowed to proceed with his puerile concept for The Phantom of the Opera- a childish rip-off of The Rocky Horror Show. Thankfully those with stronger theatrical instincts, ie Hal Prince, saved ALW from his own awful judgement. No, the Rocky Horror Picture Show theme came before he had hit upon his idea of a high romance and before he decided to compose the music himself. It was the high romance that he pitched to Hal Prince. As for his theatrical instincts, they are in the very music he writes. |
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Post by danb on Nov 6, 2021 17:48:02 GMT
This thread is now beyond tiresome, and should actually just be titled ‘My Blinkered & Irrational love for Andrew Lloyd Webber’. The Cinderella aspect now appears to be secondary to having a hard on for Andy. I’m out.
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Post by horton on Nov 6, 2021 18:06:34 GMT
I think what was implied was 'when he has nothing to do with anything other than composing duties'. Just imagine if he had been allowed to proceed with his puerile concept for The Phantom of the Opera- a childish rip-off of The Rocky Horror Show. Thankfully those with stronger theatrical instincts, ie Hal Prince, saved ALW from his own awful judgement. No, the Rocky Horror Picture Show theme came before he had hit upon his idea of a high romance and before he decided to compose the music himself. It was the high romance that he pitched to Hal Prince. As for his theatrical instincts, they are in the very music he writes. Sorry nipper, you're out of your depth. You clearly have never heard the Sydmonton demo ALW's first attempt at Phantom. It was ghastly. Hal Prince was responsible for the eventual concept. That is the correct history. Love your show if you wish, but you can't re-write history. |
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Post by max on Nov 6, 2021 18:16:01 GMT
The room suddenly brightened. Hi everyone, often disagreeing about but undoubtedly talking about 'Cinderella' - Lauren Byrne super strong in today's matinee - according to some Twitter reactions at least. Cast showing the love at curtain call, and partial standing ovation.
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Post by Oliver on Nov 6, 2021 18:19:52 GMT
No, the Rocky Horror Picture Show theme came before he had hit upon his idea of a high romance and before he decided to compose the music himself. It was the high romance that he pitched to Hal Prince. As for his theatrical instincts, they are in the very music he writes. Sorry nipper, you're out of your depth. You clearly have never heard the Sydmonton demo ALW's first attempt at Phantom. It was ghastly. Hal Prince was responsible for the eventual concept. That is the correct history. Love your show if you wish, but you can't re-write history. Yes I have seen it. That was not the "Rocky Horror Show" conception at all. That was a very early stage Phantom which was still in try-outs. It's hardly fair to blame ALW for a conception that was not perfect by that point. The Rocky Horror Picture Show idea was way before that, when others had suggested a version of Phantom and he wasn't planning to write the music himself. Rocky Horror isn't his wheelhouse at all. He and others were just throwing around possible ideas at that point including the idea of using pre-existing music. That's how most artistic endeavours begin - you throw ideas around and think about possibilities, rejecting the ones you don't think will work. Trying to ensure you only credit his collaborators (and not him) when you like a show, and only blame him and not his collaborators when you don't makes for a very weak argument. |
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Post by inthenose on Nov 6, 2021 18:23:42 GMT
You... You do realise he's never going to marry you, don't you?
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Post by sophie92 on Nov 6, 2021 18:30:03 GMT
It was a shame that a third of the audience decided to have a coughing fit during Far Too Late (and someone was sick at the end of it) as Lauren’s rendition was truly beautiful. She did such a fantastic job this afternoon.
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Post by max on Nov 6, 2021 18:38:10 GMT
Sorry nipper, you're out of your depth. You clearly have never heard the Sydmonton demo ALW's first attempt at Phantom. It was ghastly. Hal Prince was responsible for the eventual concept. That is the correct history. Love your show if you wish, but you can't re-write history. Yes I have seen it. That was not the "Rocky Horror Show" conception at all. That was a very early stage Phantom which was still in try-outs. It's hardly fair to blame ALW for a conception that was not perfect by that point. The Rocky Horror Picture Show idea was way before that, when others had suggested a version of Phantom and he wasn't planning to write the music himself. Rocky Horror isn't his wheelhouse at all. He and others were just throwing around possible ideas at that point including the idea of using pre-existing music. That's how most artistic endeavours begin - you throw ideas around and think about possibilities, rejecting the ones you don't think will work. Trying to ensure you only credit his collaborators (and not him) when you like a show, and only blame him and not his collaborators when you don't makes for a very weak argument. A lot of this originates in the Ken Hill version that Lloyd Webber saw at Theatre Royal Stratford East. That theatre still carried a nod towards music hall (one of its origins) and Ken Hill's shows there put the jokey in close proximity to theatrical or ghoulish thrills. He was involved early in the ALW version until Lloyd Webber felt that a high romance was the way to go and dropped what he later described as 'campy' elements. I can't say how far into the process the campy elements survived and what Hal Prince excised. The original managers' song sounds okay to me, or at least I don't find anything particularly brilliant in their current music. Prince was amazing, but he did initially want to drop Dangerous Jade/Peron's latest flame from Evita - which seems crazy given that it was the most Brechtian/Piscator-like piece of the writing, and Piscator was a big influence on the entire way Prince eventually staged it. I've noticed some Americans (in particular) want to credit Prince for iconic bits of staging like 'Peron's Latest Flame', so that they can take it away from those Brit writers I guess. As for 'Cinderella' the hybrid of present-day comment and fairytale clearly creates a difficult tightrope to walk style-wise and fails for many. It will evolve, but it's far too late to think ALW will ever learn to keep the workings out as private as possible. |
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Post by lolalou on Nov 6, 2021 18:45:23 GMT
Those ‘pesky’ people who book to see the advertised star especially must be really happy to see this right now
‘I’d love to know what shows I’m doing too’
🤔
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Post by Boob on Nov 6, 2021 18:59:54 GMT
Sorry nipper, you're out of your depth. You clearly have never heard the Sydmonton demo ALW's first attempt at Phantom. It was ghastly. Hal Prince was responsible for the eventual concept. That is the correct history. Love your show if you wish, but you can't re-write history. Yes I have seen it. That was not the "Rocky Horror Show" conception at all. That was a very early stage Phantom which was still in try-outs. It's hardly fair to blame ALW for a conception that was not perfect by that point. The Rocky Horror Picture Show idea was way before that, when others had suggested a version of Phantom and he wasn't planning to write the music himself. Rocky Horror isn't his wheelhouse at all. He and others were just throwing around possible ideas at that point including the idea of using pre-existing music. That's how most artistic endeavours begin - you throw ideas around and think about possibilities, rejecting the ones you don't think will work. Trying to ensure you only credit his collaborators (and not him) when you like a show, and only blame him and not his collaborators when you don't makes for a very weak argument. And who picks and (mis)manages his collaborators…? (I really thought about that post, I promise). |
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Post by Oliver on Nov 6, 2021 19:14:21 GMT
Yes I have seen it. That was not the "Rocky Horror Show" conception at all. That was a very early stage Phantom which was still in try-outs. It's hardly fair to blame ALW for a conception that was not perfect by that point. The Rocky Horror Picture Show idea was way before that, when others had suggested a version of Phantom and he wasn't planning to write the music himself. Rocky Horror isn't his wheelhouse at all. He and others were just throwing around possible ideas at that point including the idea of using pre-existing music. That's how most artistic endeavours begin - you throw ideas around and think about possibilities, rejecting the ones you don't think will work. Trying to ensure you only credit his collaborators (and not him) when you like a show, and only blame him and not his collaborators when you don't makes for a very weak argument. And who picks and (mis)manages his collaborators…? (I really thought about that post, I promise). Apologies, no disrespect was intended, I misinterpreted your comment and did what I was accusing you of doing. Yes, I agree with you on that point, this is a major artistic weakness on ALW's part, choosing poor collaborators such as Ben Elton, Glenn Slater etc. He is also too easily impressed by lyricists generally. |
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Post by Oliver on Nov 6, 2021 19:18:53 GMT
Yes I have seen it. That was not the "Rocky Horror Show" conception at all. That was a very early stage Phantom which was still in try-outs. It's hardly fair to blame ALW for a conception that was not perfect by that point. The Rocky Horror Picture Show idea was way before that, when others had suggested a version of Phantom and he wasn't planning to write the music himself. Rocky Horror isn't his wheelhouse at all. He and others were just throwing around possible ideas at that point including the idea of using pre-existing music. That's how most artistic endeavours begin - you throw ideas around and think about possibilities, rejecting the ones you don't think will work. Trying to ensure you only credit his collaborators (and not him) when you like a show, and only blame him and not his collaborators when you don't makes for a very weak argument. A lot of this originates in the Ken Hill version that Lloyd Webber saw at Theatre Royal Stratford East. That theatre still carried a nod towards music hall (one of its origins) and Ken Hill's shows there put the jokey in close proximity to theatrical or ghoulish thrills. He was involved early in the ALW version until Lloyd Webber felt that a high romance was the way to go and dropped what he later described as 'campy' elements. I can't say how far into the process the campy elements survived and what Hal Prince excised. The original managers' song sounds okay to me, or at least I don't find anything particularly brilliant in their current music. Prince was amazing, but he did initially want to drop Dangerous Jade/Peron's latest flame from Evita - which seems crazy given that it was the most Brechtian/Piscator-like piece of the writing, and Piscator was a big influence on the entire way Prince eventually staged it. I've noticed some Americans (in particular) want to credit Prince for iconic bits of staging like 'Peron's Latest Flame', so that they can take it away from those Brit writers I guess. As for 'Cinderella' the hybrid of present-day comment and fairytale clearly creates a difficult tightrope to walk style-wise and fails for many. It will evolve, but it's far too late to think ALW will ever learn to keep the workings out as private as possible. Great post, thank you for sharing this info. |
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Post by Oliver on Nov 6, 2021 19:33:43 GMT
This thread is now beyond tiresome, and should actually just be titled ‘My Blinkered & Irrational love for Andrew Lloyd Webber’. The Cinderella aspect now appears to be secondary to having a hard on for Andy. I’m out. Hardly. Yours is the majority opinion on the forum, a position of privilege which I envy greatly. Regarding your second point, it's difficult to talk about a musical without at least some discussion of the composer as an artist more generally, or reference to his other works, but don't worry we are coming back to Cinderella. |
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Post by sleepflower on Nov 6, 2021 19:37:39 GMT
I finally saw this last night - overall I enjoyed it but it was let down by poor music and lyrics. The cast were excellent, as were the production values, but the songs were not.
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Post by theatrelegofan87 on Nov 6, 2021 19:52:40 GMT
If your let down by music and lyrics in a musical then you know theres a problem lol
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Post by h86 on Nov 6, 2021 19:57:44 GMT
Those ‘pesky’ people who book to see the advertised star especially must be really happy to see this right now ‘I’d love to know what shows I’m doing too’ 🤔 She’s the lead so surely she should be doing every show except the weekly one with Georgina doing it as the alternate…..that’s how it normally works right?? Except for holidays/illness etc. Wonder what is going on…. Did anyone see Lauren’s Cinderella debut today? |
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Post by forevercolours on Nov 6, 2021 20:36:19 GMT
Is the ballgown meant to look intentionally horrible because it’s meant to highlight how wrong ‘bad Cinderella’ is meant to feel while wearing it? Because my goodness, it doesn’t look good on any of the lovely ladies who play Cinderella. It is so unflattering and the horrible blonde wig doesn’t help. The three women who have played her are so stunning but the look just doesn’t work for any of them.
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Post by stagebyte on Nov 6, 2021 20:56:06 GMT
Is the ballgown meant to look intentionally horrible because it’s meant to highlight how wrong ‘bad Cinderella’ is meant to feel while wearing it? Because my goodness, it doesn’t look good on any of the lovely ladies who play Cinderella. It is so unflattering and the horrible blonde wig doesn’t help. The three women who have played her are so stunning but the look just doesn’t work for any of them. I thought that. Under the lights everything looked grey (including the makeup) and washed out and Cinderella looked very square and frumpy. Remember trying on meringue wedding dresses back in the day with a similar bodice and skirt like that. It takes a certain shape (not mine!) to pull it off. The wedding planners essentially say unless you’re willowy and tall with a small bust don’t touch them. Edit: cute pic of Lauren though - the dress suits her but it’s still a very strange colour and the wig? Between that and the black matted grunge hat that poor Cinders is saddled with...I think I’d pop and have a look at some online offerings http://instagram.com/p/CV8oZetIFfW |
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Post by cezbear on Nov 7, 2021 8:11:43 GMT
Another poster mentioned seeing Lauren's debut but it's probably got lost amongst all the arguing posts. I was there also and she was phenomenal. Everyone in the cast was on top form, the audience were very into it and it looked like a full standing ovation to me from the point Ivano & Lauren came out for their bows. Lovely to see the cast so please for her as well.
On the costume/wig front - Lauren was the only one I've actually thought ok, I can possibly see how Sebastian doesn't recognise her at the ball. She looked very different.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 7, 2021 8:15:56 GMT
Those ‘pesky’ people who book to see the advertised star especially must be really happy to see this right now ‘I’d love to know what shows I’m doing too’ 🤔 Except for holidays/illness etc. Wonder what is going on…. Did anyone see Lauren’s Cinderella debut today? Does seem an odd way to be running things. Is ALW up to his old leading lady tricks again? |
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Post by richey on Nov 7, 2021 9:42:55 GMT
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Post by Jane Parfitt on Nov 7, 2021 9:58:52 GMT
Can't see it sadly as I don't belong to that facebook group 🙁 |
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Post by steve10086 on Nov 7, 2021 10:00:55 GMT
Absolutely brilliant, and spot on!!! |
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