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Post by oxfordsimon on Jan 7, 2019 13:38:51 GMT
I am not saying that I wanted the songs to be there - it is just that the lead up to the song moments that we all know were more present for me than last week and so I was more conscious of their absence. I guess what I am saying is that you have to hide these moments better in an adaptation if you want to avoid people imagining what they expect from another version.
I am perfectly happy for a non-musical adaptation - but when you know the musical so well, it is easy to start conflating the two genres. It is like watching Pygmalion - you can very easily see where the songs are particularly as the musical script is so heaving derived from Shaw's original.
We are - of course - thankfully spared Cosette warbling away through Castle on a Cloud. A massive bonus.
The casting is lavish - Ron Cook and Kathryn Hunter in minor supporting roles shows the appeal to actors of this sort of production. Javert is striking some false notes - I agree. But I also think that Valjean is not yet fully fleshed out as a character in whom we can invest. Because he is to silent, we are not really getting to know him.
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Post by crowblack on Jan 7, 2019 14:47:24 GMT
you have to hide these moments better in an adaptation if you want to avoid people imagining what they expect from another version. I don't think creatives should have to shape their adaptation with one eye on the decisions made by the writers and directors of the various musical incarnations. Many writers, actors etc. deliberately avoid seeing other adaptations so they can approach the text with an untainted eye. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jan 7, 2019 15:01:32 GMT
Ordinarily I would agree - but Les Mis as a musical is far better known than Les Mis the novel - and so you have to be aware of it when you are tackling a new adaptation.
Last year's War and Peace had a far greater freedom as most people don't know every detail of the story and so will be swept along by the sweep of the narrative you choose as your focus.
But Les Mis (musical) is so much a part of our popular culture now that it is hard to escape it. Yes, a new adaptation should be just that - new. And it should be an appropriate response to the original text. But when the source has a hugely popular and well-known incarnation, your audience will be aware of that - and as a writer/director, you should be aware of how your new version will play against that background.
I would be amazed if the composer of the music for this new version took pains to ensure that they avoided anything that might sound like a reference to the music in the show. Because you can be certain that someone would spot it. There merest hint of a familiar phrase would be jumped on.
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Post by kathryn on Jan 7, 2019 16:12:05 GMT
I am not saying that I wanted the songs to be there Well, I am. I wanted the songs to be there. It's better with songs! Without them it just felt - well, miserable. And of course, that's the point, it should do, but I have enough miserable to be going on with at the moment! |
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Post by crowblack on Jan 7, 2019 18:09:17 GMT
I managed to, and I don't think anyone in my family has seen it. I only saw it recently on TV because I've always been interested in the 1789-94 revolution (I collect late 18thc political ephemera) and wondered why there were teenagers online in discussion groups who were so into it, and it turned out that they were musical fans reading backwards from the 1790s-inspired 1832 characters in the novel. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jan 7, 2019 18:15:43 GMT
It is true that a lot of people do believe that Les Mis is actually about the French Revolution - probably one of the most common preconceptions about the novel/story
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Post by crowblack on Jan 7, 2019 18:25:30 GMT
a lot of people do believe that Les Mis is actually about the French Revolution They do, though the student characters in the novel are modelled on 1790s figures, hence the surprising teenage Robespierristes online. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jan 7, 2019 18:36:16 GMT
One thing about adaptations of non-English novels is to what extent they retain some of the original language in the script rather than using the English equivalents.
We have a lot of Monsieur Le Maire in last night's episode. The Thenardier children were singing a song in French. Is that to give us a sense of place? Would it be too jarring to remove all French terms?
Just noticed the amount of French in last night's episode and wondered why it was retained.
Also, there seemed to be an obsession with asking Fantine her name - I can't remember the novel well enough to know whether that was drawn from the text. But her name appeared to be very important and was thus subject to repeated questioning.
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Post by crowblack on Jan 7, 2019 19:48:28 GMT
Would it be too jarring to remove all French terms? "Mr Mayor" would be a bit too retro children's book, I think. Folk songs often refer to historical events specific to a culture so they couldn't use an English equivalent. I hadn't actually noticed background actors speaking French, which others have commented on online, so that's working for me. |
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Post by jojo on Jan 7, 2019 20:34:18 GMT
I'm reading this thread through my fingers to avoid spoilers, which is a bit daft, as I know the story. But I'm just catching up with everything after a busy Christmas period, which included an extended period with NO TELLY!!!
I've got the first two parts recorded, and not sure if I should wait until I have more for a proper binge, or if it's better just to get stuck in?
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Post by crowblack on Jan 7, 2019 23:39:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 21:33:26 GMT
it would have been so easy to slip them in Why? It's an adaptation of a 19thc novel, not a 1980s musical. I thought this week's was much better - less of the verbal exposition and more visual storytelling. The settings looked more lived-in too - last week's felt too clean. I thought the plot change - having Valjean sack Fantine while unsettled after the cart incident - worked well (it seemed quite random in the novel, from what I remember) and the Thenadiers and tooth-puller were excellent. Nice seeing Erin Doherty in there too, albeit briefly. I'm still unsure about the characterisation of Javert - he comes across as a vindictive, sadistic a-hole/Spaghetti Western villain rather than the inflexible embodiment of state law, and in the current era when no grey area or nuance seems to be allowed in public discourse, the puritanically black-and-white, humourless character of the novel would have been an interesting one to re-examine. Completely agree with what you say re Javert - I have not read the novel, but I did think that he was meant to embody the law and whilst not necessarily a likeable character there are times you could feel empathy towards him. In this adaptation he is, as you say, an a-hole. One thing I didn't understand - when Javert comes to the factory for the first time, does he already know the Mayor is Jean Valjean? Also did he come to the town on a lead specifically looking for Valjean, as he seemed to imply in their first conversation? Or was it a chance encounter? Anyway, I also thought week two was much better. Though it's such a dark story. I know that sounds obvious, but it doesn't quite come across in the same way on stage. |
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Post by jojo on Jan 9, 2019 22:32:50 GMT
I think it's because a few good songs, a bit of flag waving and a revolve help to distract from the misery.
I did get stuck in, and found myself yearning for some good songs. Things didn't start well when the opening sequence had "Waterloo" emblazoned across the screen and I thought of Abba. It was fine during dialogue, but there were quite a few bits where there is just a hint of background music as someone is being a bit wistful and it feels like they could, and possibly should, break into song.
I probably have seen the show and heard various cast recordings a few too many times to be truly objective about a straight adaptation, but it's not just the misery that is aided by show-tunes. Having Fantine leave Cosette with the Thenardiers before she'd finished her tumbler of wine, and without so much as a trip to the toilet, jars. I'll probably keep watching, hoping things will click, but right now I'm not feeling like I care much about any of the characters except for Marius' governess.
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Post by crowblack on Jan 9, 2019 23:52:26 GMT
I'll probably keep watching, hoping things will click Stick with it - the young actors they've got coming up in the last 3 episodes are fab. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 1:13:31 GMT
Oh my God, so NO REVOLVE???
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 21:42:34 GMT
I think it's because a few good songs, a bit of flag waving and a revolve help to distract from the misery. I did get stuck in, and found myself yearning for some good songs. Things didn't start well when the opening sequence had "Waterloo" emblazoned across the screen and I thought of Abba. It was fine during dialogue, but there were quite a few bits where there is just a hint of background music as someone is being a bit wistful and it feels like they could, and possibly should, break into song. I probably have seen the show and heard various cast recordings a few too many times to be truly objective about a straight adaptation, but it's not just the misery that is aided by show-tunes. Having Fantine leave Cosette with the Thenardiers before she'd finished her tumbler of wine, and without so much as a trip to the toilet, jars. I'll probably keep watching, hoping things will click, but right now I'm not feeling like I care much about any of the characters except for Marius' governess. Agree! And yes, that bit when Fantine left Cosette having known Madame T for LITERALLY three minutes, really jarred. The didn't even cut back to the scene so we could imagine it might have been longer, was an all on one. Rest of episode I really enjoyed though. Marius' governess lol - yes she does seem very nice :-) |
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Post by TallPaul on Jan 11, 2019 10:20:25 GMT
I can only 'speak' for myself, but had I been wandering through the French countryside and happened upon someone with a cockerney accent, I too would have left my daughter with them, no questions asked. 🙂
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Post by crowblack on Jan 11, 2019 10:44:12 GMT
that bit when Fantine left Cosette having known Madame T for LITERALLY three minutes, really jarred. The didn't even cut back to the scene so we could imagine it might have been longer, was an all on one. It's just like that in the novel - the TV version does the scene pretty much word for word. |
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Post by tysilio2 on Jan 11, 2019 11:07:17 GMT
I can only 'speak' for myself, but had I been wandering through the French countryside and happened upon someone with a cockerney accent, I too would have left my daughter with them, no questions asked. 🙂 Diamonds them cockerneys! Not a wrong 'un amongst 'em. |
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Post by daisy24601 on Jan 11, 2019 20:43:57 GMT
One thing about adaptations of non-English novels is to what extent they retain some of the original language in the script rather than using the English equivalents. We have a lot of Monsieur Le Maire in last night's episode. The Thenardier children were singing a song in French. Is that to give us a sense of place? Would it be too jarring to remove all French terms? Just noticed the amount of French in last night's episode and wondered why it was retained. Also, there seemed to be an obsession with asking Fantine her name - I can't remember the novel well enough to know whether that was drawn from the text. But her name appeared to be very important and was thus subject to repeated questioning. In the novel she doesn't have a surname, I googled after watching it to see where that reference may have come from and couldn't find anything, so I also found it odd they kept saying it!
Enjoyed ep 2. Javert is a real d*ck ain't he? Think he resigned with the belief Valjean will come clean? Fantine's demise was done well, I always think it's a shame she gets her teeth removed and then has to become a prostitute anyway. The letter reading dude was right!
edit: Just read this back, what a review. Radio Times here I come.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jan 13, 2019 22:12:11 GMT
So Valjean decides to go 'northern' for a couple of scenes - for no apparent reason... Right...
I am rather bored by it all now. The story is a lot more than just Javert brooding and searching. A lot.
This is not a great adaptation. It really isn't
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Post by johartuk on Jan 14, 2019 0:14:08 GMT
So Valjean decides to go 'northern' for a couple of scenes - for no apparent reason... Right... I am rather bored by it all now. The story is a lot more than just Javert brooding and searching. A lot. This is not a great adaptation. It really isn't I've never read the book, so I have no idea about anything beyond the plot of the musical (and musical film adaptation). Judging this TV adaptation from that, it's good. The pacing seems about right, the story pretty straightforward, but well told thus far. It works as a TV drama. Incidentally, when did Valjean go 'northern'? I'm northern, but I don't recall his accent changing. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jan 14, 2019 0:22:51 GMT
We had a few lines in a clear Northern accent when he appeared to first talk to Cosette in the woods - it soon vanished after the first tavern scene. But it was clear to my housemate as well as to me - we both commented on it at the same time.
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Post by crowblack on Jan 14, 2019 0:33:40 GMT
a few lines in a clear Northern accent when he appeared to first talk to Cosette in the woods He rarely spoke in the first episode but when he did it was northern, and West talked about it in interviews. It lessened when he was mayor presumably because he's worked his way up, living under an assumed name, adopting a more bourgeois identity with a less prominent accent. He was back to his working class roots again in the forest scene - and it's a gentler accent. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2019 8:38:12 GMT
I enjoyed episode 3 the most (not that I disliked the others) maybe it's Fatine finally shuffling off (joke)
But I think we're finally seeing Valjean's character develop- and yes the accent thing is a legitimate choice. Maybe those who have a more naturally 'RP' accent aren't aware of it, but those of us with 'regional' accents certainly are- people very often 'moderate' their accent depending on who they're speaking to, what the circumstances are. And indeed to 'get ahead' people with regional accents learn to taper them. So a legitimate acting choice from West.
I loved West's dynamic with Cosette as well, it really gave the insight into that part of the story that the musical skips over a bit.
Also he's a braver man than me taking on Olivia Coleman!
Overall still enjoying it, I think it's a detailed, interesting adaptation that serves the book well.
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