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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 8:07:21 GMT
I wonder how much the victims being men is contributing to the hatred and disbelief. I had hoped that a positive outcome of the #metoo movement would be that we would trust victims when they speak up, regardless of their sex.
I am always surprised that people can’t see that there is very little to gain from speaking out about violence or abuse, certainly not fame or money. I get very depressed that people think that these are prime motivators of human behaviour these days. The twitter post suggesting that this is revenge for someone not getting a choreography job? How can they not realise that these people’s careers are essentially over now? That death threats, disbelief and abuse are something they’ll have to deal with on a daily basis?
Can anyone name the last time someone was accused of something like this and was completely exonerated? I remember Conor Oberst. Cliff Richard?
My all time favourite recording artist was exposed last week. I could not let my 20 years of fandom stand in the way of believing his victims. Every single album has been deleted. Why can’t people just accept that famous people are human, imperfect and, sometimes, absolute monsters?
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Post by Backdrifter on Mar 7, 2019 8:42:36 GMT
I wonder how much the victims being men is contributing to the hatred and disbelief. I had hoped that a positive outcome of the #metoo movement would be that we would trust victims when they speak up, regardless of their sex. I am always surprised that people can’t see that there is very little to gain from speaking out about violence or abuse, certainly not fame or money. I get very depressed that people think that these are prime motivators of human behaviour these days. The twitter post suggesting that this is revenge for someone not getting a choreography job? How can they not realise that these people’s careers are essentially over now? That death threats, disbelief and abuse are something they’ll have to deal with on a daily basis? Can anyone name the last time someone was accused of something like this and was completely exonerated? I remember Conor Oberst. Cliff Richard? My all time favourite recording artist was exposed last week. I could not let my 20 years of fandom stand in the way of believing his victims. Every single album has been deleted. Why can’t people just accept that famous people are human, imperfect and, sometimes, absolute monsters? This perfectly crystallises everything I think and is so well expressed. You are a fan who sees past your adoration unlike the person who posted the above tweet, and who went on to say "plainly they are just after fame and money". |
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2019 9:18:51 GMT
Isn’t it partly that people didn’t really see him as an adult himself? He was sort of caught in amber as a child performer, and people just kept thinking of him as that little boy.
And he himself couldn’t handle growing up either.
It’s almost like there was a mass delusion going on to keep this man a child, so no-one saw anything odd about him wanting to play with children all day.
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Post by juicy_but_terribly_drab on Mar 7, 2019 9:22:08 GMT
I found this harrowing and it made me sick to my stomach but regarding the documentary itself I found it so tedious to get through. So many filler shots of landscape that just completely slowed down the pacing. Of course you want to let what you're hearing sit for a while to process it but they talk so slow that it seems unnecessary to me. Not to mention the manipulative score. I feel like it would have been far more harrowing with a lot more silence. So yeah, the content of the documentary was eye-opening and horrific but the actual execution I found wanting.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2019 9:26:52 GMT
I wonder how much the victims being men is contributing to the hatred and disbelief. I had hoped that a positive outcome of the #metoo movement would be that we would trust victims when they speak up, regardless of their sex. It certainly seems to be a factor in the Brian Singer case. And I think (massive generalisation alert) boys often don’t respond to abuse the same way that women/girls do. They are more likely to express trauma in self-destructive ways - drink, drugs, violence, etc - and that impacts on their credibility. There’s no such thing as a perfect victim, of course. When it comes to establishing credibility a child that has been trained to lie by their abuser- as part of the abuse - is especially going to struggle to appear truthful to others. |
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Post by crowblack on Mar 7, 2019 9:30:18 GMT
caught in amber as a child performer I don't know much about Jackson but I'd imagine his childhood was bizarre. The irony is that these parents were inflicting the same sort of weirdness on their own children. If your 5 year old is obesssively glued to a zombie pop video, most parents, you'd hope, would enrol the boy in a playgroup with other kids, or get him crayons and plasticine, not make him a leather outfit and put him on show. God knows, horror stories about the screwed-up lives and early deaths of child stars were a 'thing' even when I was a child. |
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Post by danb on Mar 7, 2019 9:54:03 GMT
One thing that stands out to me is that this film has been ‘allowed’ through the net now that there are fewer people making money from MJ. His reputation needed protecting at all costs whilst he was alive and, to an extent, straight after his death (ie. the most lucrative financial period for most artists.). If the great entertainment gods knew that this was/wasn’t true they would have found a way to stop it being aired. But the financial incentive to do either is no longer there for them so it’s open season.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 7, 2019 10:04:55 GMT
I wonder how much the victims being men is contributing to the hatred and disbelief. I had hoped that a positive outcome of the #metoo movement would be that we would trust victims when they speak up, regardless of their sex. I am always surprised that people can’t see that there is very little to gain from speaking out about violence or abuse, certainly not fame or money. I get very depressed that people think that these are prime motivators of human behaviour these days. The twitter post suggesting that this is revenge for someone not getting a choreography job? How can they not realise that these people’s careers are essentially over now? That death threats, disbelief and abuse are something they’ll have to deal with on a daily basis? Can anyone name the last time someone was accused of something like this and was completely exonerated? I remember Conor Oberst. Cliff Richard? My all time favourite recording artist was exposed last week. I could not let my 20 years of fandom stand in the way of believing his victims. Every single album has been deleted. Why can’t people just accept that famous people are human, imperfect and, sometimes, absolute monsters? I don't know whether it is the fact that the victims are male that is affecting perception of their accounts or something else. The issue of trusting victims is a complicated one. As has been seen time after time, it is the lack of physical evidence that makes historical cases all the harder to pursue and where a false victim comes forward, that tends to undermine credibility in all the genuine ones - unjust but how things can be perceived. We have seen that recently in the case of the man who made allegations that he was the victim of a high profile paedophile ring involving senior politicians - and has since been charged with perverting the course of justice and is facing trial in May. If you aren't aware of the case, look up Operation Midland. We should always listen with empathy and consideration to anyone making claims of abuse. Those cases should be investigated with sensitivity and care. All victims must be heard. Having heard what the two men said in the documentary, I do find them to be convincing. Yes, that is how the direction/editing wants you to react - but if they were not credible, something would have rung false at some point. Nothing did - for me. I know I am not an expert and I am aware that they have not always been consistent - but such is the way with many, many victims of childhood sexual abuse - particularly with the high level of grooming that went on. We must never let the small number of those who lie about abuse taint the genuine cases - though, human nature being what it is, it will always create doubt. But hearing victims with sensitivity and empathy is something we must always do. |
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Post by distantcousin on Mar 7, 2019 10:16:19 GMT
isn't it great to lay blame on someone who cannot defend themselve anymore just because of that i would never watch this anyone could say anything and Micheal cannot say anything on his behalf anymore so many people just wanting a bit of fame for themselves by accusing whatever No one was saying this after Jimmy Saville died.
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Post by distantcousin on Mar 7, 2019 10:19:42 GMT
As for the parents letting their children sleep in the same bedroom as an adult male - there are no words! But, but, it's Michael Jackson!! Above reproach! |
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Post by distantcousin on Mar 7, 2019 10:21:50 GMT
I've just seen on Twitter, fans have been protesting outside of the Channel 4 Headquarters today over the documentary, many with banners saying "facts don't lie, people do". ... before people have even had the chance to watch this documentary. Jackson still has a highly motivated and engaged fandom who would metaphorically put their lives on the line to defend his honour/legacy. |
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Post by distantcousin on Mar 7, 2019 10:23:59 GMT
I have to agree that whilst the accusations are awful, another feeling I had was one of anger and fustration toward those parents who, in my opinion, were not protecting their children like any parent would and shouls. They continued to practically abandon their children with a stranger or agree to let them even stay in the same bed as a stranger. Famous or not, no matter how close, you don't do that to your own child. A lot of Part 2 is dealing with their response - Michael seduced them like he seduced the children. The Safechucks did not need to pick up Michael, he made them feel as if they were responsible for him like they were Jimmy and inserted himself into every part of their lives. Firstly, he wasn't a stranger to them and secondly just by being MICHAEL JACKSON they felt like they knew him. Neverland is literally designed to keep the parents away from the children. The reckoning that the parents have with themselves is just as compelling IMO as the reckoning that the children have. Wade said that even though he didn't meet Michael until he was 7, he felt like he was being groomed from the age of 5 just by idolising him. Fame is completely crucial Absolutely. This is key. |
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Post by distantcousin on Mar 7, 2019 10:29:00 GMT
caught in amber as a child performer I don't know much about Jackson but I'd imagine his childhood was bizarre. The irony is that these parents were inflicting the same sort of weirdness on their own children. If your 5 year old is obesssively glued to a zombie pop video, most parents, you'd hope, would enrol the boy in a playgroup with other kids, or get him crayons and plasticine, not make him a leather outfit and put him on show. God knows, horror stories about the screwed-up lives and early deaths of child stars were a 'thing' even when I was a child.
Mrs Robson puts Mama Rose to shame, TBH!!!!! Ghastly woman!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 10:37:35 GMT
There was just so much about that documentary that made me so very angry. When Jimmy talked about the "wedding" and pulled out the rings, my heart absolutely broke.
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Post by danb on Mar 7, 2019 10:45:11 GMT
I don't know much about Jackson but I'd imagine his childhood was bizarre. The irony is that these parents were inflicting the same sort of weirdness on their own children. If your 5 year old is obesssively glued to a zombie pop video, most parents, you'd hope, would enrol the boy in a playgroup with other kids, or get him crayons and plasticine, not make him a leather outfit and put him on show. God knows, horror stories about the screwed-up lives and early deaths of child stars were a 'thing' even when I was a child.
Mrs Robson puts Mama Rose to shame, TBH!!!!! Ghastly woman!
As a parent I was aghast that she didn’t think twice about letting him sleep in the same room. As a parent of someone who has idolised a pop star for a long time I could see where her lack of suspicion came from. If you feel like you already know someone it must be ‘difficult’ to separate reality from potential harm...for maybe a moment. But I think reflected glory and potential riches scaled her eyes. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 10:54:38 GMT
isn't it great to lay blame on someone who cannot defend themselve anymore just because of that i would never watch this anyone could say anything and Micheal cannot say anything on his behalf anymore so many people just wanting a bit of fame for themselves by accusing whatever He was a succesfull choreographer before this, one of the greatest if you ask me. Why would he lie for fame? I mean, his career is pretty much over now. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 10:58:17 GMT
I've just seen on Twitter, fans have been protesting outside of the Channel 4 Headquarters today over the documentary, many with banners saying "facts don't lie, people do". ... before people have even had the chance to watch this documentary. Jackson still has a highly motivated and engaged fandom who would metaphorically put their lives on the line to defend his honour/legacy. Comparable to Wicked fans. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 7, 2019 11:04:00 GMT
I have personal experience of how fanatical MJ fans can be.
17 years ago, I was managing the Disney Store here in Oxford. MJ was due to speak at the Oxford Union. The entire day, our store was beseiged by rabid MJ fans who were convinced that he would pay a visit to the shop on his way to the Debating chamber.
He had form for this - indeed once bought the entire window display from one of the London branches. But there was almost zero likelihood of that happening in the small Oxford branch.
But we had fans from all over Europe who had flown in just on the off-chance of catching a glimpse of him getting out of a car and going into a building.
He wasn't performing. They just wanted to see him. Get close to him.
And they wouldn't move from the shop until we closed. It was utterly bizarre.
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Post by Phantom of London on Mar 7, 2019 11:18:02 GMT
Everyone I can guarantee sing from the same song sheet on here, if someone is not guilty they they should be free to lead there lives, but guilty should feel the whole force of the law and if they die can be wronged and condemned in death.
Celebrity guilt is a differcult one and one hard to delievered justice because of public afffections, thinking of Harry Rednapp tax dodging and John Terry racial abuse walked, as did Jeremy Thorpe, where he was played marvellously by Hugh Grant in the recent tv drama. So for celebrities you need a higher burden of proof.
The monster that was Jimmy Saville was one of the most litigious and when confronted by Louis Theroux, he merely pointed out ‘who do you think paid for that brand new kitchen’. That part got edited out!
There is no doubt there was a celebrity sex ring, involving Cyril Smith, Ted Heath etc, but all too big and powerfulto be prosecuted.
Michael Jackson allegations have been there over the years and have never gone away, when he was first arrested, he paid for his victim silence, this doesn’t help Michael.
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Post by distantcousin on Mar 7, 2019 11:23:09 GMT
Jackson still has a highly motivated and engaged fandom who would metaphorically put their lives on the line to defend his honour/legacy. Comparable to Wicked fans.
LOL!!!!!!!!!! Certain things bring out such quasi-religious fervour in people!!
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Post by basi1faw1ty on Mar 7, 2019 12:10:33 GMT
So I've seen it and... that was harrowing, and part 2 is supposedly worse, so I've heard.
It's gonna take me a while to wrap my head around this, and trying to separate art from artist is gonna prove even trickier than I thought if all this is true.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2019 12:53:25 GMT
Mrs Robson puts Mama Rose to shame, TBH!!!!! Ghastly woman!
As a parent I was aghast that she didn’t think twice about letting him sleep in the same room. As a parent of someone who has idolised a pop star for a long time I could see where her lack of suspicion came from. If you feel like you already know someone it must be ‘difficult’ to separate reality from potential harm...for maybe a moment. But I think reflected glory and potential riches scaled her eyes. It's the same distortion we talk about in relation to Carrie Hope Fletcher fans, really - the idea that the fan knows and can be friends with the famous person. The desire to be close to them. The sense of basking in the reflected glory of their achievements - but a thousand times more intense because of the level of fame, and talent, and because these kids really did get to appear in commercials with and go on tour with him. And of course, his worldwide fame and career started as a child. The idea that those kids could do the same thing must have been very alluring. Of course a more sensible parent would have taken stock of his apparent loneliness and maybe decided worldwide fame and celebrity is not such a desirable thing for their child after all. |
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Post by Phantom of London on Mar 7, 2019 16:57:27 GMT
Okay
I have now seen this.
The 2 people who gave an harrowing account what Michael did to them, I found both to be more than credible. What do they have to gain by doing on camera and reliving their pain, you have to ask?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 16:59:42 GMT
I've thought about it more all day today, and having seen some other thoughts on talkshows etc today, I'm still struggling with the parents not doing anything. I completely get the arguement for them on here, but I still can't grasp it personally. I hope more clarification will come tonight.
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Post by jaqs on Mar 7, 2019 17:13:53 GMT
Talking about and understanding grooming, not just of the victim but of whole families is a pretty recent thing. It certainly wasn't something talked about back when Jackson was in court for the previous allegations (even if just as now, we all said what were the parents thinking).
He built the whole families trust and gradually erased all their boundaries, he was Michael Jackson and they were blinded.
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