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Post by duncan on Jun 25, 2020 15:36:59 GMT
I'm guessing Maxine Peake is now cancelled.
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Post by basdfg on Jun 25, 2020 15:42:01 GMT
I'm guessing Maxine Peake is now cancelled. Her views have been known for a long time.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Jun 25, 2020 16:18:03 GMT
Maxine Peake views on Palestine are known and should be applauded and aligns with mine.
The issue was the alignment of Israeli training of US Police Forces and its methods which has no confirmed links to the death of George Floyd, whether the statement in the article is anti-Semitic is open but the stupidity of Rebecca Long-Bailey commenting at this time made her sacking inevitable as it shows poor judgement.
Currently any criticism of the actions of the state of Israel is wrongly considered as anti-Semitic and this is not an argument Labour can be drawn into at this time and Rebecca Long-Bailey should have known/considered this.
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Post by basdfg on Jun 25, 2020 16:20:55 GMT
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Post by Jon on Jun 25, 2020 16:25:04 GMT
Maxine Peake views on Palestine are known and should be applauded and aligns with mine. The issue was the alignment of Israeli training of US Police Forces and its methods which has no confirmed links to the death of George Floyd, whether the statement in the article is anti-Semitic is open but the stupidity of Rebecca Long-Bailey commenting at this time made her sacking inevitable as it shows poor judgement. Currently any criticism of the actions of the state of Israel is wrongly considered as anti-Semitic and this is not an argument Labour can be drawn into at this time and Rebecca Long-Bailey should have known/considered this. To me, it's a case of not being so trigger happy on Twitter. Many people don't engage brain before tweeting or posting an article.
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Post by sf on Jun 25, 2020 16:33:30 GMT
Maxine Peake views on Palestine are known and should be applauded and aligns with mine. The issue was the alignment of Israeli training of US Police Forces and its methods which has no confirmed links to the death of George Floyd, whether the statement in the article is anti-Semitic is open but the stupidity of Rebecca Long-Bailey commenting at this time made her sacking inevitable as it shows poor judgement. Currently any criticism of the actions of the state of Israel is wrongly considered as anti-Semitic and this is not an argument Labour can be drawn into at this time and Rebecca Long-Bailey should have known/considered this. To me, it's a case of not being so trigger happy on Twitter. Many people don't engage brain before tweeting or posting an article. Particularly, in this case, since there's been so much very ugly, very public discussion of anti-Semitism within the Labour party, and so much (absolutely justified) criticism of the previous leader's jaw-droppingly arrogant reluctance to make any worthwhile effort to stamp it out.
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Post by lynette on Jun 25, 2020 16:34:11 GMT
So she has been sacked for being stupid, not antisemitic?
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Post by sf on Jun 25, 2020 16:36:04 GMT
So she has been sacked for being stupid, not antisemitic? She's been sacked for retweeting an article containing an anti-Semitic statement and then, when questioned, doubling down and not really apologising. So yes, basically for stupidity.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jun 25, 2020 16:39:45 GMT
If Peake is a current member of Labour, surely she should be suspended at least?
If it is wrong of RLB to support her, it is wrong for Peake to be a member holding the views she has espoused.
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Post by lynette on Jun 25, 2020 16:43:10 GMT
So she has been sacked for being stupid, not antisemitic? She's been sacked for retweeting an article containing an anti-Semitic statement and then, when questioned, doubling down and not really apologising. So yes, basically for stupidity. Not understanding what she had retweeted, not in fact reading it perhaps? I blame it on the current GSCE lang exam which isn’t hot on analysis and irony... ( has she left school?) Or maybe, just maybe she thinks that Jews are responsible for killing blacks in US.
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Post by basdfg on Jun 25, 2020 16:49:40 GMT
If Peake is a current member of Labour, surely she should be suspended at least? If it is wrong of RLB to support her, it is wrong for Peake to be a member holding the views she has espoused. I think she is but maybe she has already quit since Starmer was elected.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jun 25, 2020 16:51:00 GMT
RLB has a track record of 'not spotting' anti-semitism when is right in front of her eyes.
You have to look at what she has done and what she has failed to do - that gives you a fuller context for today's sacking
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Post by xanady on Jun 25, 2020 17:49:42 GMT
Decisive leadership by Keir compared to the dithering and fudge by Boris over Cummings and Jenrick
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jun 25, 2020 17:56:13 GMT
It should not be forgotten that he did appoint her to the Shadow Cabinet - in full knowledge of her past actions/positions.
Today's tweet of support was just part of the picture regarding LRB's less savoury thinking. Starmer could have started the detoxification by not appointing her in the first place. Or by not appointing her fellow travellers like Lloyd Russell-Moyle and other members of the Campaign Group
Today might be the start of a decisive move - it is just too early to tell
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Post by kathryn on Jun 25, 2020 18:04:00 GMT
I don’t know, sacking her sends a nice loud signal about what will and will not be tolerated that will have travelled farther than not appointing her in the first place.
Puts everyone else on notice, gets some decisive leadership PR for Starmer, reassures the Jewish community. Also stops the old guard from being able to complain that they were frozen out with no good reason - she was given the chance, and she dropped the ball. And it really was an unforced error - she didn’t have to tweet that about article.
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Post by xanady on Jun 25, 2020 18:07:58 GMT
Well said,kathryn.Labour under Corbyn were unelectable but the way that Keir dissects and bamboozles Boris at Question Time every week shows what a great statesman he could be...the ringmaster v the clown. ^RLB made a mistake and he got rid...he did it swiftly...that is the definition of decisive leadership...Boris is lacking in that respect as he believes in the ‘old boys’ club’....Cummings and Jenrick should both have been shown the door, but Boris doesn’t have the courage or political conviction to do the right thing.Pitiful leadership.
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Post by sf on Jun 25, 2020 18:10:05 GMT
I don’t know, sacking her sends a nice loud signal about what will and will not be tolerated that will have travelled farther than not appointing her in the first place. Puts everyone else on notice, gets some decisive leadership PR for Starmer, reassures the Jewish community. Also stops the old guard from being able to complain that they were frozen out with no good reason - she was given the chance, and she dropped the ball. And it really was an unforced error - she didn’t have to tweet that about article. Absolutely. RLB had to be given a prominent appointment, because Starmer had to be seen to be trying to build bridges between the different factions within the party.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jun 25, 2020 18:21:34 GMT
If today is followed by significant action after the EHRC report comes out (and that should include expelling a range of members - even those who were, until recently, in leadership positions) then it will part of a good thing.
If not, then today was just internal score-settling rather than something principled.
I hope it is the former - but am reserving judgement.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 18:44:52 GMT
RLB got 27.6% of the vote in the Labour Leadership Election so it made sense for Sir Kier to retain her in his shadow cabinet. But retweeting this was a huge mistake and Kier was right to act decisively to remove her. No doubt the far left would moan but they would still think they were right if they were the side which had provoked a war.
If Mossad have been doing training techniques to other security services or police services then there is nothing wrong with that as they are considered one of the elite secret service organisations in the world.
Sir Kier is certainly the best leader Labour have had since Tony Blair. He is still in his honeymoon period but he is clearly a very sharp guy. You don't get to be head of the CPS if you are a slouch and he has certainly given Labour someone who can be seen as electable both nationally and internationally.
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Post by lynette on Jun 25, 2020 19:06:40 GMT
Maxine has apologised.
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Post by sf on Jun 25, 2020 19:14:41 GMT
Maxine should have known better in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 19:46:59 GMT
Well this just smells like a PR stunt to me. Sir Kier gets to show his firm stance on antisemitism within the party, and gets to damage the reputation of the biggest thread to his leadership (Rebecca came second if I remember correctly). Basically he gets to come up smelling of roses.
It was foolish to re-tweet the article I suppose when the article clearly identifies Maxine’s comments are factually incorrect regarding the kneeling. However I do buy Rebecca’s defence - that she was just re-tweeting an article featuring her constituent condemning the government. Many politicians have done a hell of a lot worse without a blink of an eye and I’m not convinced there was any malicious intent behind it.
Not that I’m a fan - how she came second in the leadership I’ll never know. I’m still undecided on Sir Kier too. I know it’s early days and there hasn’t been an opportunity for him to prove himself as someone worthy of being Prime Minister, but his CV demonstrates he must have a relatively good head on his shoulders - but you could have said the same of Gordon Brown.
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Post by sf on Jun 25, 2020 20:25:04 GMT
However I do buy Rebecca’s defence - that she was just re-tweeting an article featuring her constituent condemning the government. Many politicians have done a hell of a lot worse without a blink of an eye and I’m not convinced there was any malicious intent behind it. Really? Given how much invective has been (justifiably) aimed at the Labour party over the last few years for the previous leader's unmitigated failure to deal with the issue of anti-Semitism, "she was just re-tweeting an article featuring her constituent condemning the government" doesn't cut it. Ms. Long-Bailey should have read the article first, should have noticed the VERY obvious dog-whistle (which does Ms. Peake absolutely no credit either, by the way), and should have realised that re-tweeting (and therefore endorsing) an interview with a prominent Labour supporter which contains a thuddingly obvious piece of anti-Semitism would inevitably reopen a very ugly conversation. That she DIDN'T, I'm afraid, tells us a great deal about her intelligence, and that's putting it very kindly. There's no excuse. And THEN, instead of acknowledging the mistake, deleting the tweet, firmly distancing herself from the offensive content in the article, and offering an unreserved apology, Ms. Long-Bailey doubled down and tried to justify herself. At that point, she had to go - and since this is an issue that has already done the party enormous damage, she had to go immediately. Starmer didn't have any choice. PR stunt? Not in the way you suggest. I would not be at all surprised if Starmer gave her the job anticipating that before too long he'd have to fire her - but as I said somewhere else, in order to be seen to be trying to build bridges, he had to offer her a prominent role. This was an easily-avoidable screwup, and she didn't avoid it. It's entirely her own fault.
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Post by kathryn on Jun 25, 2020 21:33:07 GMT
RLB got 27.6% of the vote in the Labour Leadership Election so it made sense for Sir Kier to retain her in his shadow cabinet. But retweeting this was a huge mistake and Kier was right to act decisively to remove her. No doubt the far left would moan but they would still think they were right if they were the side which had provoked a war. If Mossad have been doing training techniques to other security services or police services then there is nothing wrong with that as they are considered one of the elite secret service organisations in the world. Sir Kier is certainly the best leader Labour have had since Tony Blair. He is still in his honeymoon period but he is clearly a very sharp guy. You don't get to be head of the CPS if you are a slouch and he has certainly given Labour someone who can be seen as electable both nationally and internationally. It’s startling to see so many people on social media saying ‘it’s true, the Israeli security services do train American police’, as if that means that the specific allegation that they trained the police force involved in George Floyd’s death in the technique that killed him is true. As if American police had never killed a black man before the Israeli police showed them how.... I am sure Starmer’s background in law is very useful in cutting through that sort of sleight-of-rhetoric. It’s so reassuring to watch him slice through Boris’s bumbling performances with precise follow-up questions - competence, at last! I’ve been saying for the past few years that I’d be willing to put up with ideological differences to get some competence in government. I hope I’m not the only one thoroughly fed up with omnishambles.
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 25, 2020 22:36:22 GMT
OK - I have to admit that, as a Jewish person who believes that legitimate criticism of Israel isn't anti-semitic but Maxine Peake's unsubstantiated conspiracy theory based on anti-semitic tropes IS anti-semitic and the decision to sack RLB based on her retweeting it with no initial clarification of her not supporting the claim, nor apologising for it when asked was a welcome one that showed impressive and strong leadership from Starmer, I was a bit cautious coming onto this thread based on what twitter has been largely filled with today. So I am genuinely thankful that this has been a factual, calm, thoughtful and reasonable discussion. AmnestyUSA (not Amnesty International) was cited as where the initial conspiracy that the technique used to murder George Floyd came from Israeli soldiers and has now been debunked by Amnesty International: t.co/BOxYLPHDihThe original article itself is no more than a blogpost, with no interviews, sources, graphs, etc. This twitter thread from @sara_Rose_G goes some way to explaining the context of why this is an anti-semitism issue and why those involved, especially RLB, should know better: “I think the RLB thing is incredibly hard to unpick & you need a sh*t tonne of context to understand why it was dodgy, which is why most people won’t. And it’s so effing hot, I don’t want to have to explain it, but I fear I must & bear with me, will do my best. This is a classic situation where someone has, on the surface of things, criticised the actions of the Israeli state. That in itself is not antisemitic, of course. It is also something where a bit of it is true & a bit of it isn’t. The important bit isn’t. Now - is it inherently antisemitic to say something untrue about the state of Israel? By my measure, no. I feel where criticism of Israel becomes antisemitic is a) where they are held to a higher standard than other countries, probably not the case here and (don’t yell yet), B) where falsehoods about the state of Israel are rooted in long-held antisemitic tropes. Still with me? OK so here’s where we need some more context. There is an age-old blood libel trope where historically Jews have been accused of secretly orchestrating disasters. I think, given that the accusation is demonstrably false, given that there is a widespread far-right conspiracy theory that Jews are trying to start a race war & given that there have been multiple incidents of Jews as a collective being blamed for anti-Black racism that the surrounding context makes a conspiracy theory which is on the surface of it about Israel much more likely to be rooted in antisemitic sentiment. Phew. So given that I just had to explain all of this, could RLB have been expected to know this? Well... yes, frankly. She has just experienced four years of people painstakingly explaining to her what antisemitic tropes look like. She was closely involved with a leadership that ultimately failed in part because of their poor record on antisemitism. At this point, there is no excuse for her not to know better. And yes, this decision is partly political, but it’s also of her own making. RLB was closely tied to the Corbyn project, which caused so much pain for so many Jewish people across the political spectrum. She should have known that a whiff of antisemitic conspiracy thinking would put Starmer in a very difficult position. He campaigned on a promise to stamp out antisemitism in the party. He can’t, in his first few months, have his front bench tainted with it. So in short, I think RLB demonstrated, sadly, that she had learned nothing from the mistakes of the last four years & that she is unable to hear the dog whistles that maybe ordinary people can’t be expected to detect, but at this point, she should. To summarise - criticising Israel = absolutely legitimate. Probably helpful if what you’re saying is true. Probably also helpful if what you’re saying doesn’t echo millennia of antisemitic tropes & current active antisemitic conspiracy theories. I can understand why someone looking at this with no other information might wonder what she did wrong, but the point is she had that information & still isn’t able to deploy it successfully. I think he had no choice but to let her go or be tainted by mistakes of the past”
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