311 posts
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Post by olliebean on Nov 26, 2018 0:28:41 GMT
That was a good one by the standards of this series, but it's really becoming obvious now how poorly developed the companions' characters are, not to mention their relationships with the Doctor. You could pretty much drop any three random people into the companion roles in that episode and nothing substantive would have changed. And I have no idea at all who they are to the Doctor, which is a stark contrast to all the other companions since 2005.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2018 7:07:26 GMT
. What bothered me was his accent. I don’t think he did RP posh. Apparently Alan Cumming based his performance on posh Scottish politicians like Malcolm Rifkind. Not sure how James I would have spoken - would the language of court have been French at that point? Apparently he spoke Gaelic too. But not sure how he would have spoken English.
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316 posts
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Post by martello736 on Nov 26, 2018 9:17:03 GMT
It felt very rushed at the end. Almost as if they had a script for 55-60 minutes and needed to cut it down to 42 to fit the slot - so we got lots of telling and not enough showing. I agree, the ending didn't quite naturally flow from the beginning, we had 40 minutes of coherent story (e.g. acts 1 and 2) followed by 7-8 tacked on at the end where they all picked up a torch and went off to re-imprison the baddies. It didn't feel at any point like they weren't going to win, and the creatures' decision not to immediately consume King James (or indeed the Doctor / the companions) seemed like an unnecessary way of delaying until they could all toddle along to save him.
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316 posts
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Post by martello736 on Nov 26, 2018 9:19:11 GMT
That was a good one by the standards of this series, but it's really becoming obvious now how poorly developed the companions' characters are, not to mention their relationships with the Doctor. You could pretty much drop any three random people into the companion roles in that episode and nothing substantive would have changed. And I have no idea at all who they are to the Doctor, which is a stark contrast to all the other companions since 2005. Something interesting about this series is that they've been shifting the episodes around quite a lot in the running order. Demons of the Punjab was originally episode 9, Kerblam was 8, Witchfinders was 6 and next week's was 7, the fact that they can swap one for another just shows that there's been very little meaningful character development over the course of episodes and effectively each week they press a big reset button and every character returns back to how they were before.
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999 posts
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Post by Backdrifter on Nov 26, 2018 10:13:05 GMT
Something interesting about this series is that they've been shifting the episodes around quite a lot in the running order. Demons of the Punjab was originally episode 9, Kerblam was 8, Witchfinders was 6 and next week's was 7, the fact that they can swap one for another just shows that there's been very little meaningful character development over the course of episodes and effectively each week they press a big reset button and every character returns back to how they were before. That is an interesting point. For one thing, it's partly the result of not having what had been the obligatory story arc, which as I've mentioned before is a good thing. But I hadn't thought about it in the way you said - the ability to mix the episodes up also reveals the lack of companions' development. Re the various mentions of accents, in regard to anything to do with how alien and historical characters speak in this show I always assume we're hearing what the characters hear thanks to the Tardis translation thingy, in this case it means they (and therefore we) hear the King speaking modern English in that kind of posh Morningside voice.
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on Nov 26, 2018 12:26:34 GMT
Re the various mentions of accents, in regard to anything to do with how alien and historical characters speak in this show I always assume we're hearing what the characters hear thanks to the Tardis translation thingy, in this case it means they (and therefore we) hear the King speaking modern English in that kind of posh Morningside voice. Yes, and also that the Tardis has a bit of a sense of humour and plays the odd sly accent joke now and again!
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5,707 posts
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Post by lynette on Nov 26, 2018 13:38:23 GMT
. What bothered me was his accent. I don’t think he did RP posh. Apparently Alan Cumming based his performance on posh Scottish politicians like Malcolm Rifkind. Not sure how James I would have spoken - would the language of court have been French at that point? Apparently he spoke Gaelic too. But not sure how he would have spoken English. I think to us his accent would sound rural. The RP is quite a modern development. Not Scottish like David Tennant ( be still my beating heart ) but with a country/ northish twang. But hey, what do I know? Let's have what we got which does I think reflect his pomposity and his ridiculous belief in witches.
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on Nov 26, 2018 17:55:49 GMT
Hmm, I think this week’s was more in the mode of ‘classic’ Who - the companions could be almost anyone and the alien comes from the mud, and resembles an old-school horror trope (zombies/witches). Last week was much more picking up the tropes of the post-2005 series - really about modern life, a companion’s experience relates to it, and makes kids terrified of something in normal, everyday life.
Also, clearly written by someone who hates bubble wrap being popped!!
I think Chibnall is playing around a bit with the possibilities for telling Doctor Who stories.
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999 posts
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Post by Backdrifter on Nov 27, 2018 11:01:36 GMT
clearly written by someone who hates bubble wrap being popped!! Ha ha ha ha! I suppose so. It seems such a universally liked activity, it never occurred to me that while everyone else is grinning away and popping to their hearts' content, there's a lone person on the margins grimacing and muttering "why I oughta...." In fact, how much bolder if it turned out that the villain carried out their deadly plan for the sole reason he could no longer stand bubble-wrap being popped.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 11:05:46 GMT
I've not yet been a fan of Chibnall's stories although educating people about creation of Pakistan and especially Rosa Parks has to be commended. Is he being experimental in his first series and will then go back to a few heavy hitters in the 2nd series with Jodie.
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Post by jojo on Nov 29, 2018 19:28:05 GMT
I thought this week's show was good, albeit starting a bit slowly.
I gave a little cheer when the Doctor was being challenged on everything and she announced how if she were still a man she wouldn't have to waste all this time justifying herself and could just get on with things! So far there hasn't been much gender politics at play, and I don't want to go that way myself, but there is plenty of evidence that very often, people with male names on email find it easier to get things done than those with female names.
Then I went online and realised that many were interpreting this as a dig at the man-boys who were complaining about having a woman Doctor before they'd seen anything she'd done. Which of course they were deeply offended by and that's it, they definitely won't be watching any more if their legitimate concerns aren't going to be treated with respect. So that's another bonus.
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999 posts
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Post by Backdrifter on Nov 29, 2018 20:15:53 GMT
I gave a little cheer when the Doctor was being challenged on everything and she announced how if she were still a man she wouldn't have to waste all this time justifying herself and could just get on with things! Then I went online and realised that many were interpreting this as a dig at the man-boys who were complaining about having a woman Doctor before they'd seen anything she'd done. Which of course they were deeply offended by and that's it, they definitely won't be watching any more if their legitimate concerns aren't going to be treated with respect. So that's another bonus. Very true, though just to point out at the time of JW's casting I saw a fair number of women also complaining about it. On twitter I happened across one especially pompous 50-something nerd who stated in his bio "Doctor Who fan, 1963-2017".
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316 posts
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Post by martello736 on Nov 29, 2018 20:47:33 GMT
I'm a little bit torn over this series so far to be honest. By Series 10 I was really sick of Moffat not killing anyone and having half the episodes take place in an unnecessarily convoluted timeline but Chibnall seems to have gone the other way entirely and it all feels very... vanilla.
We don't know any more about Ryan or Graham than we did at the end of episode 1 and after the big "risk" of casting a female doctor (which has paid off) he's not taken any more risks at all with his storytelling. Rosa and Demons of the Punjab would have been fantastic "pure historicals" where there is no alien threat at all but both had a two dimensional unnecessary villain shoehorned in - Krasko the time travelling racist in Rosa and the Thijarian death observers in DotP. I didn't mind Donald Trump mark 2 being the villain in Arachnids but they forgot to do any satire with it, instead they pointed and went "hey look, Donald Trump!" then moved on to not arresting him for waving a gun in a police officer's face and only bothering to round up half the spiders. Tsuranga was the real weak point though, there's only so much of wandering around the same 3 rooms while the Doctor makes groaning noises that even I can take.
To give the series its due, the first two episodes and Kerblam and Witchfinders were both very enjoyable, but I just feel Chibnall is so worried about alienating viewers that he's refusing to do anything at all with the series. Ten weeks of characters who don't develop at all standing around delivering exposition at each other gets tiresome very quickly. I'm not bothered there's no arc this year, but there needs to be SOMETHING linking the episodes together, at the very least the characters should in some way progress. Ryan and Graham from episode 2 are no different from in episode 8, and although Yaz got brief moments in episodes 4 and 6, she's only had a third of a series of character development. Something needs to happen. I'm not bothered what, just something.
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Post by jojo on Nov 29, 2018 21:00:46 GMT
I gave a little cheer when the Doctor was being challenged on everything and she announced how if she were still a man she wouldn't have to waste all this time justifying herself and could just get on with things! Then I went online and realised that many were interpreting this as a dig at the man-boys who were complaining about having a woman Doctor before they'd seen anything she'd done. Which of course they were deeply offended by and that's it, they definitely won't be watching any more if their legitimate concerns aren't going to be treated with respect. So that's another bonus. Very true, though just to point out at the time of JW's casting I saw a fair number of women also complaining about it. On twitter I happened across one especially pompous 50-something nerd who stated in his bio "Doctor Who fan, 1963-2017". Fair point. Those women were probably even more depressing than the men, which may be why I've blanked them out.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2018 21:36:43 GMT
That was a good one by the standards of this series, but it's really becoming obvious now how poorly developed the companions' characters are, not to mention their relationships with the Doctor. You could pretty much drop any three random people into the companion roles in that episode and nothing substantive would have changed. And I have no idea at all who they are to the Doctor, which is a stark contrast to all the other companions since 2005. Something interesting about this series is that they've been shifting the episodes around quite a lot in the running order. Demons of the Punjab was originally episode 9, Kerblam was 8, Witchfinders was 6 and next week's was 7, the fact that they can swap one for another just shows that there's been very little meaningful character development over the course of episodes and effectively each week they press a big reset button and every character returns back to how they were before. It’s what the whingers were asking for, I like story arcs but there was a lot of moaning about them. Having more standalones does hinder development but they are getting the strongest audience figures since 2012. A lot of the ITC shows in the sixties were even less connected, watching something like The Avengers now is quite an alien experience (no pun intended).
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999 posts
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Post by Backdrifter on Nov 29, 2018 22:30:27 GMT
Something interesting about this series is that they've been shifting the episodes around quite a lot in the running order. Demons of the Punjab was originally episode 9, Kerblam was 8, Witchfinders was 6 and next week's was 7, the fact that they can swap one for another just shows that there's been very little meaningful character development over the course of episodes and effectively each week they press a big reset button and every character returns back to how they were before. It’s what the whingers were asking for, I like story arcs but there was a lot of moaning about them. Having more standalones does hinder development but they are getting the strongest audience figures since 2012. A lot of the ITC shows in the sixties were even less connected, watching something like The Avengers now is quite an alien experience (no pun intended). It's a bit harsh to dismiss as whingers and moaners those of us who aren't keen on story arcs or at least aren't fussed about them.
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471 posts
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Post by mistressjojo on Nov 29, 2018 22:41:29 GMT
I think the problem with story arcs was that Moffat's were a bit too convoluted. You can see it quite clearly in Sherlock, where it works well because its supposed to be clever and make Sherlock look like a flawed genius. But it doesn't work as well to that extent in DW.
To be fair, nobody writes a story arc like RTD.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 0:40:26 GMT
It’s what the whingers were asking for, I like story arcs but there was a lot of moaning about them. Having more standalones does hinder development but they are getting the strongest audience figures since 2012. A lot of the ITC shows in the sixties were even less connected, watching something like The Avengers now is quite an alien experience (no pun intended). It's a bit harsh to dismiss as whingers and moaners those of us who aren't keen on story arcs or at least aren't fussed about them. It's a perfectly valid position (although not what I personally look for in television drama). I'm just saying that removing story arcs and lack of character development go hand in hand.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 1:23:30 GMT
Haven't watched last week's episode yet but when I heard Alan Cumming was in it, I hoped that he would be the Witchfinder General as that would have seemed an ideal scary,creepy role which he could have had a lot of fun with.
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2,761 posts
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Post by n1david on Nov 30, 2018 8:49:30 GMT
I’m running behind on watching this, but desperately intrigued by Jodie Whittaker’s post about this week’s episode:
Might have to catch up before Sunday night...
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3,040 posts
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Post by crowblack on Nov 30, 2018 9:22:49 GMT
Rosa and Demons of the Punjab would have been fantastic "pure historicals" where there is no alien threat at all but both had a two dimensional unnecessary villain shoehorned in I felt the same about this one. First off, I know I'm not the target demographic and kids are used to being barraged with constant activity on screen, but I was hoping for a proper folk horror here, slowly building menace and mystery, and instead we got the usual breathless rushing about. Alan Cumming was clearly enjoying himself but it felt really inappropriate in a story about what was in effect a holocaust mainly against women (see Norman Cohn's books for the Europewide scale of the slaughter). And then the aliens - it didn't need them. Human behaviour is horrific enough.
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316 posts
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Post by martello736 on Nov 30, 2018 9:26:25 GMT
To be fair, nobody writes a story arc like RTD. To be fair, nobody writes anything like RTD, the man is on a whole other level. I’m yet to watch something of his and not think it’s incredible.
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3,321 posts
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Post by david on Dec 3, 2018 21:32:33 GMT
Just caught up with last nights episode. There are 2 things I have learned from the episode -
1. Sheep are planning a world revolution (they always look so placid when you see them in a field. Who knew they are actually planning world domination?)
2. There are such things as talking frogs (We didn’t get this during the RTD era. Though more importantly what was the writer of this weeks episode on to come up with such an idea? Why not have a form that would have some real emotional impact like a person who the Dr had lost?)
Crazy talking frog aside, I didn’t mind this weeks episode. The one thing it did do was actually create that real danger element for the TARDIS team that seems to have been missing. I thought the more emotional ending at the end was well written and handled, particularly with Bradley Walsh and Sharon D Clarke was heart breaking and his conversation with Ryan was a nicely understated scene.
Overall, lots of nice ideas about loss and letting go of people, but that talking frog at the end really was a stupid idea and spoilt what was upto that point quite emotionally charged writing.
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Post by jojo on Dec 3, 2018 21:36:44 GMT
There was a bit more tension in this episode, and I felt it was a real possibility that we might lose someone on the other side of the rifty thing, but I'm getting a bit fed up with the sonic screw-driver being used for everything.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Dec 3, 2018 22:05:21 GMT
This episode owes a significant debt to JK Rowling.
The mirror thing - very much a play on the Mirror of Esired - connecting you to what you want (albeit using a different mechanism and for different reasons)
The sequence where the Doctor is trapped with the Talking Frog was very similar to the sequence where Harry meets up with Dumbledore on the all white Platform 9 3/4. The aesthetics and conversation felt very familiar.
On the whole it was a fairly decent episode (one of the better this season) but the frog was a bit much (though suspect we might see it again...)
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