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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2018 8:59:48 GMT
Interesting and provicative article by Lyn Gardner in The Stage. www.thestage.co.uk/features/2018/gardner-is-british-theatre-guilty-of-failing-the-working-class/A couple of takeaway quotes - “When public subsidy was set up it very quickly became dominated by the middle classes and it was the middle classes who set the agenda for taste. That meant that the working class was marginalised in terms of what kinds of art were seen to be valid and should be funded,” Hassan Mahamdallie “I often wonder why middle-class audiences want to pay to hear me tell stories about working-class life,” says Scottee. “And why is it that so seldom we are funded to tell the stories of working-class success? More often the dominant narrative is about working-class failure. We make the shows that the funders want to fund and theatres want to programme and often they are poverty tourism for the middle-class audience.” As someone from a working class background, assisted by the favourable education system in the seventies and early eighties, for me this is an important debate. I was/am also able to code well, performing a middle class version of myself in interviews, and so I can fully sympathise with the comments on that in the article. Anyone? Do we protest too much? Too little?
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Post by duncan on Mar 15, 2018 9:53:08 GMT
I'm working class scum, brought up in a council house by a single parent and I don't want to see a reflection of my life on stage - theatre like cinema is escapism. Give me a musical like Wicked any day of the week over working class toot like Blood Brothers and similarly I'd rather see Noel Coward plays than the kitchen sink stuff.
But that's just me, maybe the posh folk want to see squalor as an escape from their buckets of gold.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2018 10:16:34 GMT
Well
Rufus Norris
Has tried to make things more accessible
Let’s look at the current dumbed down Macbeth
Is it loved by anyone?
True theatre will appeal to all demographics
The reason it doesn’t
Is there is too much sh*t poor quality work THAT is the problem
Compare this to plenty of TV shows
Which appeal across social class gender and demographic
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2018 10:20:02 GMT
...I don't want to see a reflection of my life on stage - theatre like cinema is escapism. 100% For me, one of the reasons both Preacherman and Wonderland failed catastrophically was their 'working class' leads.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2018 10:52:43 GMT
This is the point partly, that ‘working class drama’ is invariably created for middle class audiences slumming it. In any case, a diet of escapism isn’t enough, theatre is a way of engaging philosophically and politically and there should be that strand as well (or is that sort of thing also only for a middle class audience......?)
Parsley - if that was the case then you are implying that working class audiences are more discerning because they are avoiding the rubbish and their lower participation rates are merely because they only see the good stuff! Sadly, not the case. Isn’t the way that different arts have been funded a factor?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2018 11:37:53 GMT
Oh I just love watching working class dramas. I rarely understand a word they say but all that having a toilet outside, wearing vests and doing their own housework is such fun, it's like another universe. I especially like it when someone wears a flat cap. It's just smashing.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 16, 2018 10:15:44 GMT
Ok, so we have just gone through our performance review process a work, which is making me want to say this: you can’t say that it is failing the working class until you define what success is.
So you need to ask - what do ‘the working class’ want from theatre? What do they need from theatre?
Do ‘the working class’ want or need to see their lives reflected on Stage? Do they want or need to go to the theatre for entertainment? Or to be challenged and provoked to think differently?
I am going to be controversial here, and say that some of this anxiety is not about ‘the working class’ and their desires and needs (as if we/they - I am not sure if I really am working class or not, these days - was one homogenous mass that all need the same thing) but about the fear of theatre practitioners that their profession is irrelevant to a large percentage of the population.
To play devil’s advocate for a minute: the reason why getting to work in theatre is important to creatives in the industry is not because everyone wants a career in theatre, but because theatre feeds creatives into the film and television industries in this country - which is where most people really want to be working. That’s where the money, important accolades and audiences are.
If we had a different way for working class creatives to get their foot in the door for film and TV, would being able to work in theatre really be a concern?
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 16, 2018 11:55:09 GMT
I found it all just a bit patronising.
What is the obsession within certain quarters about 'the working class'? It is almost a fetishisation of a group. A group that is never really defined, a group that does not seem to be asked what it wants - as if 'the working class' could come up with a single response that was acceptable to everyone within that group that doesn't really exist as a homogenised entity.
Yes, our theatre should reflect the whole range of life experience. Yes, our theatre should be accessible to all. But that is, in many ways, a pipe dream.
Those on low and/or fixed incomes will always find paying to attend theatre of any sort a challenge. And there is no way that public subsidy could be used to really make theatre accessible to all.
Is this actually more about the guilt of the privileged rather than anything else?
There are issues about access to theatre even at a community level. Looking at my own city, there are some groups who have membership fees of £5-£10 per year and others where the fee is in the region of £200 (and in the case of some youth groups closer to £300) - if you are in the lower income brackets, setting aside £200 for membership fees is an amount of money that will make you pause for thought - even before taking into the consideration of associated costs (travel to rehearsals/performances, providing elements of costume and so forth). I know having any hobby brings with it a certain level of cost but I find membership fees at that sort of level to be unacceptable. If you can't make your group work without that sort of fee - then you need to change the way you work. Then, of course, you have the 'am dram tax' - where you persuade your friends in other groups to come and see your latest show in return for you going to see theirs! Very much a first world problem - but one that I now opt out of - I don't actively ask my friends to come to see my productions and, in return, they don't push me to go to theirs!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2018 12:14:58 GMT
I've gone the opposite way with am dram tax - there are four groups in our town who all offer something different, and the memberships have started to thoroughly cannibalise each other, but now I genuinely want to go and see my friends in their other shows, whereas previously it's been more of an obligation (to try and get out of).
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Post by andromedadench on Mar 16, 2018 12:25:33 GMT
I found it all just a bit patronising. What is the obsession within certain quarters about 'the working class'? It is almost a fetishisation of a group. A group that is never really defined, a group that does not seem to be asked what it wants - as if 'the working class' could come up with a single response that was acceptable to everyone within that group that doesn't really exist as a homogenised entity. Yes, our theatre should reflect the whole range of life experience. Yes, our theatre should be accessible to all. But that is, in many ways, a pipe dream. Those on low and/or fixed incomes will always find paying to attend theatre of any sort a challenge. And there is no way that public subsidy could be used to really make theatre accessible to all.Is this actually more about the guilt of the privileged rather than anything else? Why is this so? How come it worked - and, for the most part, still does - in former socialist countries? In Yugoslavia, and even now in this skint raspberry-republic of Serbia, all theatre has always been publicly subsidised and, as such, accessible to all and catering to all. Uk is a much richer country than Yugoslavia ever was, so I genuinely don't get why more public subsidies are out of the question. Unless it's all just about profit and not about making culture available to everyone.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 16, 2018 12:58:13 GMT
1 - Public subsidy for all theatre - that means you have some official making a decision as to what qualifies - thus giving state control over what is produced and made available.
2 - There is no guarantee that a state controlled theatre would cater for all. Indeed it is far more likely that you end up with a very limited range of projects being permitted that fitted within a certain set of approved ideas/perspectives.
3 - I have no problem with public subsidy per se. It is necessary and desirable. However looking at the way ACE operates makes me seriously question whether our current system is actually delivering for audiences across the board. Is subsidy there to to serve the artist/creator or the wider public?
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Post by Jan on Mar 16, 2018 13:19:13 GMT
If theatre better represented the non-metropolitan working class, by for example giving equal access to generally pro-Brexit anti-immigration plays poor old Lynn would be the first to complain.
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Post by andromedadench on Mar 16, 2018 13:25:11 GMT
Unless it's all just about profit and not about making culture available to everyone Could making theatre accessible to all in a country with a history of "controlled society" be as much about propaganda as artistic access, perhaps? I don't really get the question. Propaganda in what sense? How is making it possible for everyone to see a Tennessee Williams or a production of Fiddler on the Roof, propaganda? Theatre life in the socialist Yugoslavia was extremely rich with various theatres specializing in different repertories - from the classics to the modern American drama to musical theatre. It even spawned BITEF in 1967, so people could get a chance to see what was going on elsewhere in theatre world. They weren't staging pieces on how glorious the country or its system was, I think you underestimate people in ''controlled societies'' - we weren't some kind of brain-washed robots, state propaganda needed to be much subtler, just the way it is in ''free societies'', whatever those are. I genuinely fail to see anything sinister about the state allowing all its citizens to participate in the cultural life. In fact, having funds yet refusing to use them in such a way just so to make a bigger profit, is a sign of an unjust society. I'm not sure how the subsidised-theatre issue was dealt with in the Scandinavian model will have to look it up.
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Post by TallPaul on Mar 16, 2018 13:41:42 GMT
Is Sheffield getting a new arts centre? How exciting! Did you know about this BurlyBeaR?
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Post by andromedadench on Mar 16, 2018 14:19:57 GMT
Did a bit of googling and found this, from The Essential Theatre by Brockett and Ball. It concerns subsidised thetare practice of some, hopefully, more palatable countries.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Mar 16, 2018 14:37:09 GMT
Is Sheffield getting a new arts centre? How exciting! Did you know about this BurlyBeaR ? No! I hope it’s more successful than the national music museum thingy in the big silver ali baba baskets.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 16, 2018 15:00:27 GMT
Is subsidy there to to serve the artist/creator or the wider public? This is the key, surely. Either can be defended philosophically (and of course if there's enough money you can do both!) but you do have to measure that you are doing what you think you are - and all too often it seems that it's the artist being served by it while claiming it's for the wider public.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2018 19:41:36 GMT
A fair amount to chew on, some of it seeming to miss the point by quite a long distance.
One thing is that people are tending to talk as audience members whereas the article, and the concern to myself, is about participants primarily. The key question is about access to the business, not access to a ticket.
As I've previously made clear I am from a very much working class background and, however much I have been educated, however much I mix in different circles it never leaves you. It isn't as fixed or as visible as gender or race but it is an identity that you carry with you everyday.
Briefly, my own background, for context.
Apart from all the 'Four Yorkshireman' stuff; the outside toilets, tin baths and rickets (seriously) that are all part of my family experience, my upbringing had many elements of the newly less class ridden world of the sixties and seventies such as comprehensive education, student grants and so on. Being successful in artistic endeavours, musical, dramatic and so on, was a bit of a confusion to parents working in factories and such but they were, and remain, very supportive and proud of the son who made it out. That idea, of 'getting out', of not going into the factory was drilled into me from a very young age, that I now had the chance to do better and the state could now help me do so, unlike for my parents or grandparents.
My experience of theatre was seaside shows, variety on television, the odd TV production and, with the advent of Channel 4, proper, actual theatre on television, in a way that people now would probably find unbelievable. The National Theatre Mysteries, Peter Hall Oresteia and, one that sticks in my mind, the Belt and Braces production of Dario Fo's 'Accidental Death of an Anarchist' redone with a TV studio audience. I read, however, and was supported by an English teacher who literally gave me a box of plays and said 'read those'.
So, I got to University and realised that I was working class, strangely that was less of an issue with the Music side of me than the Drama side but, even then, to be a working class Drama student was to be a curiosity. Maybe it's the nature of the business. Partly it's lack of cultural opportunities, partly financial, partly life experience. To risk a business where I could easily end up out of work and making ends meet or to play safe and get a more steady job where I wouldn't become a burden? Not much of a choice really, others risked it and succeeded, others risked it and failed.
Which is all prologue.
What do ‘the working class’ want from theatre?
Not any type of theatre but to be part of it, to have the opportunity to participate on a more level playing field. So please don’t expect them to work for free and have unpaid internships or think that endless profit shares and such are going to weed out people on quality. They weed out people in terms of financial backing instead. There isn’t a working class theatre that can be demanded stylistically but participation and access lead to it, the horse comes before the cart. Also, whilst middle class theatregoers may be fretting about the working class it really isn’t happening the other way around……
Are people really just interested in film and TV?
Well it’s more visible if you don’t have the cash or background in going to the theatre, so TV especially is a particular goal. More TV broadcasts, online streaming of the people who are seen in film/TV on a stage instead would do wonders. Maybe the NT Live of the cinema needs to expand to be the NT live of the television/Netflix as well. There is some irony, I taught someone in a now relatively successful cabaret group based in Manchester who have since appeared on television, they are well known for working class focused work but that isn’t exactly their real background. TV has its ersatz working class performers if the real ones aren’t available…
Oxfordsimon - There are youth groups that charge £200+? That ‘s shocking, it really is. I haven’t been a part of the amateur scene for a long time but surely that isn’t widespread?
Public subsidy – good or bad?
There are two issues here, firstly the way that subsidy creates a culture and, secondly, the way that culture creates access.
Essentially, the presence of the former and the lack of the latter can be a real problem.
On creating a culture. No government should be defining worthwhile culture through selective sponsorship. This was the case with the way that the arts were built post war in this country, however:- Theatre, Opera, Classical Music etc., all subsidy worthy; Variety, musical theatre, popular music, not subsidy worthy. It’s that that created this divide between high and low culture. Arts subsidy is now more spread out culturally but we are still paying for that sort of attitude. It is also still not evenly spread throughout the country, it needs a more nationally driven system, not odd companies here and not there. Spread it out geographically as well as culturally.
On creating access. There was a high point, which I was able to ride (unaware that such an opportunity would start to fade away even a decade after me). There is now, loudly broadcast through the system of fees and loans, a system that says ‘do something that will earn you money’. No wonder that those on arts courses are becoming more well off. Again, I’ve benefitted and been able to get students into higher education, into Drama schools and such, with ease. Yes, we have a better system of funding of education groups and individuals through national and regional funding but it’s piecemeal, it’s conditional and it can reach some areas whilst completely passing much of the country by. Access to arts education and training needs to be national and you don’t help that by not including arts subjects in the way that schools know they are going to be measured, through the EBACC. I can see access to the arts in education diminishing in all but independent schools. From that then there is less access to higher education, the skewing of the profession becomes even greater, the arts become more, rather than less elitist.
Access – make it available, make it financially viable, make it national not piecemeal.
Doesn’t matter what you think a working class audience wants if the drawbridges had been raised years ago.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 16, 2018 20:12:20 GMT
I don't believe the drama/music needs to be part of the core curriculum. Theatre and music was always an extra curricular activity for me. I would like to see regular theatre/event going as part of the school experience. Not worth TIE stuf - which always made me cringe. But having exposure to good theatre - that is the way to inspire the next generation. Nothing helps you get to grips with a set text better than seeing it come to life on stage in front of you. It would be great if there was a national programme that provided the opportunity for each child to attend at least one live show every year of their school lives. There is absolutely a role for drama in schools - but it does not need to be there as a subject per se. School shows, theatre trips, drama groups - great - all can provide an outlet for those with an interest.
I would like to see a reduction in the number of drama schools and thus the number of places available. Too many people are being given training for a profession with a very limited number of opportunities compared to the available talent. Drama schools are exploiting the hopeful. Particularly in the charging of exorbitant audition fees. But in essence, we are training too many actors in full knowledge that there will never be enough work available for them all to cover the costs of their training through professional work.
There is a case from bringing all drama and music training into the UCAS/funding system. That way, there is a more level playing field in terms of access to the training. But that must only happen with a cap on numbers. It is morally wrong to train people as actors knowing that they won't get work due to the nature of the profession. There is nothing in the GCSE or A Level Drama courses that I have investigated that makes candidates better prepared for consideration as potential drama students - which is why I question whether they are actually needed at all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2018 20:32:15 GMT
Reading what an examination course syllabus says is like reading a precis of a book, it is a mere outline of all that is taught. A good teacher will give a perfect springboard for further study (and for many, it is their last point of contact with the subject as not all will carry on with it). I am grateful to many students who have thanked me for doing that and giving them a real headstart at drama school or university. I’ve sent more than one student to places like RADA and Central in the past five years. I’ve seen performers I have taught in theatres across the country, on TV, broadcasting on national radio, one having a play performed in New York and so on, just in the last year. Drama courses in schools are worth it. Sometimes there are poor teachers, yes, but that isn’t the fault of the subject. It is also not supposed to be a recreative exercise, taking existing texts, it is as much about the creation of the new. You make it sound like an offshoot of English. Theatre visits are also useful as spurs to creativity but are not an end in themself. To want to deny every student in this country access to an arts education, that is a shocking admission.
On the subject of too many people being trained, I am more in agreement. More importamt is that the mix of different backgrounds, cultures and so on is represented, which is the focus of the article.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 16, 2018 20:58:18 GMT
My love of theatre was born from going to the theatre, doing school and local shows - Drama O or A level were not available and the lack of them did not hold me back in any way, shape or form.
Of the people I know who have entered the profession in recent years, none of them would credit it to having done Drama as a school subject. They would credit having access to a wide range of performing opportunities and being taken to the theatre.
Of the people I have worked with on the amateur scene over the past 15 years, I would say their experience is probably closer to mine. Their love of performing, theatre-making and attending comes from exposure to good work throughout their life.
Drama as an academic subject is not something I would ban - but I don't see it as being a necessary part of a core curriculum. I would like to see space in any curriculum for 1 or 2 elective subjects that can work alongside the key subjects. Whether that is music, art, drama, sports science or any number of other subjects.
I would like to see drama and music-making take place in every school. I just don't believe it is necessary as a core subject. It should be an option.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2018 21:19:42 GMT
The problem with having core subjects is that schools teach to them, in the same way that teaching to the test has made much education reductive.
We live in a world which has changed so much in such a short time, I have students who already make their own films, for example. One who has bypassed higher education completely because he has already become a success without it. Performance permeates our everyday lives, I could never have dreamed how much when I was their age. To be educated for the future is very different now and leaving it to higher education is just too late.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 10:20:29 GMT
On creating a culture. No government should be defining worthwhile culture through selective sponsorship. This was the case with the way that the arts were built post war in this country, however:- Theatre, Opera, Classical Music etc., all subsidy worthy; Variety, musical theatre, popular music, not subsidy worthy. I would argue that those deemed "not worthy" were flourishing at the time without any help. If you look at when they went into decline - late 60s / early 70s, then you can see the public funding kicking in, for example the many popular music happenings at the Roundhouse etc, and all the public stuff the GLC mounted. I’d counter that by saying that variety was dying and British musical theatre being swamped by imports from Broadway. British popular music massively kicked off by the early sixties, with musical theatre hitching a ride for a while but, before that, it too was beholden to the American juggernaut. Film was also, somewhat later, to experience a massive decline in the face of Hollywood’s global reach. All of that was built into that initial decision to fund ‘high’ culture. Why was opera worth saving by being heavily subsidised whereas British musical theatre wasn’t? Apropos of nothing, another interesting effect that I found in my family (and I think more widely) is how television channels were perceived. ITV was ‘our channel’, the BBC was posh and not the default for viewing. I only got to watch BBC2 when I got a black and white portable Amstrad in my newly converted own bedroom!
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 17, 2018 11:38:22 GMT
The economics of opera have always made it a challenge to do as a fully commercial enterprise.
Compared to musicals, opera has
1 - Much bigger forces - chorus, orchestra, set 2 - Shorter runs - opera singers can't perform the same role night in, night out - so there is only ever a limited number of performances
Making that work without subsidy is very difficult and we see very few opera companies performing the core repertoire as scored attempting to survive without subsidy of some sort. Yes, there are smaller companies who work without chorus, who use massively reduced orchestration or just keyboards who can manage without outside funding - but they aren't able to represent the full range of opera.
Musicals require, on the whole, a smaller set of resources and have extended runs meaning the costs are recouped over a longer period making the whole budgeting process easier.
Would opera survive without subsidy (whether from donors or the public purse)? Not in Opera House form.
The commercial realities are that musical theatre can be financial viable and, at times, highly profitable.
If you want the full range of theatre forms to exist and be seen, you have to target the money in the best way possible to allow that to happen. Do we get the level of subsidy right when it comes to Opera? That is a different question. But if we want Opera as part of the mix then we have to accept it will need support.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 12:13:22 GMT
I'm fully in support of opera as an artform and, with Ades, Turnage, Benjamin etc., we have a tradition to be proud of. In the USA, left without national subsidy, however, opera gets along just fine. Arguably, whilst much of the rest of the world was driving into a cul de sac, new American operas kept in touch with their audience as a result. Why couldn't a more free market approach work here?
Regarding financial viability, the risks are massive for a large musical. Thankfully investors take the plunge occasionally but, as figures show, you're better off putting your money in a building society, it's a philanthropic act more than anything.
There's a follow up editorial in The Stage which suggests a rebalancing. It explains that the two pronged wartime subsidy via CEMA (Council for the Encouragement of Music and the Arts) and ENSA (Entertainments National Service Association) became something afterwards that mirrored the cultural CEMA as opposed to the popular ENSA and that the decisions made then were not necessarily the right ones. From the editorial -
"When you look through the list of famous ENSA members, you find music hall stars like Tommy Trinder, George Formby and Gracie Fields. But, you also find Laurence Olivier and Ralph Richardson, who performed Shakespeare for the troops in a six-week tour of Europe just after the war. Opera and ballet were also staged. There was no distinction.
While today much public theatre is funded as art, not that long ago, it was also supported as entertainment."
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