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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 7:20:57 GMT
Particularly troubling was his closeness to the convicted paedophile Jeffrey Epstein - you can see it all on the internet. So we're doing "guilt by association" now?
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Post by Jan on Nov 1, 2017 7:54:13 GMT
Particularly troubling was his closeness to the convicted paedophile Jeffrey Epstein - you can see it all on the internet. So we're doing "guilt by association" now? Why not ? It is a legal possibility (Joint Enterprise) if someone has conspired in a crime but not actually carried it out. Clinton was on Epstein's private island and on his plane often enough to know what was going on and he said nothing. Trump was a close friend of Epstein too actually. Blaming Clinton's accusers is not a good look in the current climate incidentally.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 8:05:50 GMT
Blaming Clinton's accusers is not a good look in the current climate incidentally. Not sure I blamed anyone for anything, but do accept my apologies. I shall go and fetch my flaming pitchfork at once.
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Post by zahidf on Nov 1, 2017 8:20:59 GMT
So we're doing "guilt by association" now? Why not ? It is a legal possibility (Joint Enterprise) if someone has conspired in a crime but not actually carried it out. Clinton was on Epstein's private island and on his plane often enough to know what was going on and he said nothing. Trump was a close friend of Epstein too actually. Blaming Clinton's accusers is not a good look in the current climate incidentally. Replace Clinton with Thatcher and Epenstein with Saville of course... Its not blaming his accusers to note they changed their stories under oath
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Post by duncan on Nov 1, 2017 16:21:16 GMT
Brett Ratner and Dustin Hoffman next up.
LA Times going with stories from actresses including Olivia Munn and Natasha Henstridge about Ratner whilst the Hollywood Reporter is going with a story of Hoffman harassing a 17 year old whilst making Death of a Salesman.
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Post by horton on Nov 1, 2017 21:02:44 GMT
I hate to say I told you so about a certain former artistic director...
Actually I don't.
All this "jumping on the bandwagon" is nonsense. These accusations are not new. Most of these stories have been around for years; it's only now they are hitting the mainstream media.
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Post by Phantom of London on Nov 1, 2017 22:37:03 GMT
Michael,Fallon has gone now, age to think no there is something more than putting your hand on Julia Hartley Brewers leg, even though that is wrong in itself, it is no resigning matter, even though it is sexual assault.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 23:23:45 GMT
He's resigned before further testimonies emerge.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 1:59:49 GMT
How come so many of Hollywood were happy to work with Polanski who has had this ongoing issue for around 40 years and are now trying to wash their hands of people like Spacey. The Crosby allegations have been around for years but that didn't really bring all these others to like.
When Heffner passed away a few weeks back I wondered what may have come out about him, but nothing has yet, maybe he really was an old charmer. Also the amount of women Warren Beatty is rumoured to have shagged, yet nothing about him.
Thank God Errol Flynn isn't still around as his rumours are the things of legend.
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Post by Mr Snow on Nov 2, 2017 6:43:05 GMT
I wonder if what's really different today is that several women have stood up and admitted in public that they have been raped. Is this new?
These women having found the courage to do this may well help change things for the better. We will never stop rape entirely just as we will never stop murder. But I hope other women will find strength in this to stand up, report what happened and face their attackers in court. Other women who have been raped will see these powerful women who were similarly debased and it will help them realise it was not their fault. That they don't have to live with a terrible secret and have their life limited by it.
And of course if several women stand up to recount their experiences, the chance of a conviction is much higher.
I do hope something good can come of this and hope I'm not being naive.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 8:56:05 GMT
I think there is a change in people standing up and speaking out. There's a lot of criticism that it's 'famous' people but the truth is the Hollywood actresses speaking out (about harassment not rape in every case) are able to because they have the power/money/security to do so. And if that means a trickle down effect, so that the more 'ordinary' woman begins to feel more comfortable speaking out then it's to be applauded. Women think they won't be believed, because often they aren't. So the more women that speak out from positions of power and say 'yes we need to be listened to' the more things will hopefully change. And you're right, we won't stop rape/assault entirely, because some people will always commit terrible deeds, but if we start to shift the discussion around it, make sure women can report it and speak about it then we stand a chance of making sure those who do these things come to justice.
On a separate point re: Hefner, there were a few articles that talked about him negatively, and indeed there have been several former 'Bunnies' over the years who have written 'tell all' books etc that cast him in an unfavourable light. However on the whole reports on him have suggested he was more an old creep/misogynist rather than an outright assaulter (not to say he never did but that seemed to be the general consensus- it was all a bit gross and creepy but he almost never 'needed' to cross a line because for various reasons women still voluntarily went to him, it's not right... but I guess it's a different ilk)
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Post by mallardo on Nov 2, 2017 12:57:13 GMT
Re Hugh Hefner I think he was more of a pimp than an outright abuser - the girls at the Playboy mansion were there to service the VIP guests and they knew it. It was a highly hedonistic environment, or so I've been told by some who experienced it.
On the other hand, I had personal experience with Bob Guccione and the Penthouse world and it was not like Playboy at all. Guccione himself laid down a strict code of conduct for all male employees vis a vis the models or any other female staff. Any man who imposed himself on a woman through conduct or language was terminated immediately. I saw it happen. Of course Guccione himself was above the law, so to speak, but I never saw him abuse his power or be disrespectful toward any woman.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 13:18:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 13:22:01 GMT
Re Hugh Hefner I think he was more of a pimp than an outright abuser - the girls at the Playboy mansion were there to service the VIP guests and they knew it. It was a highly hedonistic environment, or so I've been told by some who experienced it. On the other hand, I had personal experience with Bob Guccione and the Penthouse world and it was not like Playboy at all. Guccione himself laid down a strict code of conduct for all male employees vis a vis the models or any other female staff. Any man who imposed himself on a woman through conduct or language was terminated immediately. I saw it happen. Of course Guccione himself was above the law, so to speak, but I never saw him abuse his power or be disrespectful toward any woman. That's the wording I was searching for and failing in this morning! Hefner as a Pimp/fostering a certain environment rather than implementing direct abuse himself- doesn't make him a stand up guy or anything but explains why he's also not the subject of any major scandals.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 13:31:21 GMT
Re Hugh Hefner I think he was more of a pimp than an outright abuser He was more of a punter than a pimp, in that he employed prostitutes for his (and others') pleasure, rather than living off their immoral earnings.
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Post by Jan on Nov 2, 2017 16:01:11 GMT
Re Hugh Hefner I think he was more of a pimp than an outright abuser He was more of a punter than a pimp, in that he employed prostitutes for his (and others') pleasure, rather than living off their immoral earnings. I see TV’s own Mr Selfridge, Jeremy Piven, has denied some accusations against him but I’d say his case isn’t necessarily strengthened by the fact that one incident is alleged to have taken place while he was at the Playboy Mansion. In that TV show he only ever deployed two expressions: happy and puzzled. I guess he’s giving it plenty of the latter now. One curious thing about Piven is that he nearly died of mercury poisoning because for 20 years he ate a huge amount of fish. Well, at least that’s what he said when he bailed out of “Speed the Plow” on Broadway.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 2, 2017 17:35:47 GMT
I wonder if another revival of The Crucible would be timely?
”She was sewin’ poppets an’ I saw ‘im fleetingly touch ‘er leg Goody Proctor. I swear to god he was thinkin’ the devils thoughts! I could see it in ‘is EYES!!”
(you have to say it in a country bumpkin accent for it to work)
This is assuming there’s anyone left to act in it, of course.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 17:37:44 GMT
I wonder if another revival of The Crucible would be timely? ”She was sewin’ poppets an’ I saw ‘im fleetingly touch ‘er leg Goody Proctor. I swear to god he was thinkin’ the devils thoughts! I could see it in ‘is EYES!!” (you have to say it in a country bumpkin accent for it to work) This is assuming there’s anyone left to act in it, of course. Well Jeremy Piven if he hasn't had too much fish lately maybe....
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Post by Jan on Nov 2, 2017 20:25:42 GMT
I wonder if another revival of The Crucible would be timely? ”She was sewin’ poppets an’ I saw ‘im fleetingly touch ‘er leg Goody Proctor. I swear to god he was thinkin’ the devils thoughts! I could see it in ‘is EYES!!” (you have to say it in a country bumpkin accent for it to work) This is assuming there’s anyone left to act in it, of course. Well Jeremy Piven if he hasn't had too much fish lately maybe.... ”We’ll only be needing your puzzled expression in this one Jeremy”
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Post by loureviews on Nov 3, 2017 7:55:45 GMT
Michael,Fallon has gone now, age to think no there is something more than putting your hand on Julia Hartley Brewers leg, even though that is wrong in itself, it is no resigning matter, even though it is sexual assault. How is touching someone's knee 'sexual' assault?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 8:35:04 GMT
How is touching someone's knee 'sexual' assault? Cynically, I would suggest "Since people could show off their outrage about it". I foresee a lot of the following happening when people get to the afterlife*: "What did you do in your life to make the world a better place?" "I expressed my outrage on social media over two million times." "So, plenty of virtue wank. What did you do that actually achieved something?" "..." * Assuming they don't just end up fertilising the flowers, which is probably more use than they ever were alive.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 8:46:17 GMT
Michael,Fallon has gone now, age to think no there is something more than putting your hand on Julia Hartley Brewers leg, even though that is wrong in itself, it is no resigning matter, even though it is sexual assault. How is touching someone's knee 'sexual' assault? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 3, 2017 8:58:33 GMT
The issue comes down to whether 'the touching is sexual' - and, for many people, touching someone on the knee will not be in the least bit sexual - just part of their natural, tactile interactions with other people.
I don't know the case law well enough to know where the courts have set the limits to this. Is it necessary to demonstrate that the toucher was being 'sexual' in their intent? Or is it enough that the touchee believes it to be 'sexual' in intent?
As we saw in the recent case in Dubai, accidental contact can be construed by the courts as sexual assault. And whilst that is a different legal system, it is not difficult to see how certain societal attitudes can colour the way the legal system interprets the complexities of normal human interactions into something more sinister.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 9:02:16 GMT
If he's resigned over it, then it's not unreasonable to guess he might have more in the closet than "once touched the knee of a journalist who has been falling over herself to inform the world just how little she cares about it".
Also, it's all about context, and choice of words probably has a lot to do with it too. If you use the most basic clinical terms, you could probably make a full-on violent sexual assault sound like a relatively minor deal. "Touched the knee" is basic fact, you don't have to worry about people arguing the points there. But what if - purely hypothetically - the scenario is that a powerful man has invited you to a dingily-lit bar, sat you down in the corner, sat in a position that would make it difficult for you to get past, made it clear throughout the conversation just how important he is while looking at you in a way that indicates he's only looking at the body parts and not the person, and then he leans in and grips your lower thigh with his hand for several minutes ignoring the clear discomfort in your face and body language? "He was abusing his power." Was he? You can't prove that. "He was looking at me in a way that indicated sexual interest." Was he? You were imagining it. "He made it clear he was in charge of the situation." Did he? That's not what he says. "He touched my thigh." Did h... oh, he's admitted to touching your knee, you can have knee. There's a hypothetical scenario for you where "a knee touch" is undeniable sexual harassment that's nonetheless not quite provable in a court of law.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 3, 2017 9:10:10 GMT
If he's resigned over it, then it's not unreasonable to guess he might have more in the closet than "once touched the knee of a journalist who has been falling over herself to inform the world just how little she cares about it". Also, it's all about context, and choice of words probably has a lot to do with it too. If you use the most basic clinical terms, you could probably make a full-on violent sexual assault sound like a relatively minor deal. "Touched the knee" is basic fact, you don't have to worry about people arguing the points there. But what if - purely hypothetically - the scenario is that a powerful man has invited you to a dingily-lit bar, sat you down in the corner, sat in a position that would make it difficult for you to get past, made it clear throughout the conversation just how important he is while looking at you in a way that indicates he's only looking at the body parts and not the person, and then he leans in and grips your lower thigh with his hand for several minutes ignoring the clear discomfort in your face and body language? "He was abusing his power." Was he? You can't prove that. "He was looking at me in a way that indicated sexual interest." Was he? You were imagining it. "He made it clear he was in charge of the situation." Did he? That's not what he says. "He touched my thigh." Did h... oh, he's admitted to touching your knee, you can have knee. There's a hypothetical scenario for you where "a knee touch" is undeniable sexual harassment that's nonetheless not quite provable in a court of law. Sexual harassment is different to sexual assault. Assault falls firmly under the auspices of the Criminal Law where things have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. Most harassment cases will be considered a civil matters and thus the burden of proof is 'on the balance of probabilities' - which is a less onerous thing to demonstrate. At the moment, there are a lot of people who are conflating the two things. Neither are acceptable forms of behaviour - quite clearly. But whilst all sexual assaults almost certainly are also a form of sexual harassment, not all examples of sexual harassment can be seen as sexual assault.
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