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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 0:51:54 GMT
2008 - High Point - Pitmen Painters which transferred to NY, Low point - Fram
2009 - High Point - All's Well That Ends Well, Low Point - Nation (no transfers as far as I'm aware)
2013 - High Point - From Morning to Midnight (not a widely shared one, I imagine), Low Point - Edward II (a great director flummoxed by the space) (again, no transfers as far as I'm aware)
2014 - High Point - James Plays (NTS deserve the artistic kudos maybe), Low Point - Treasure Island. Great Britain had a famously disastrous transfer, Elephantom played some matinees and James Plays went on tour.
2017 - High Point - Angels in America, Low Point - George & the Dragon. Angels transfer to NY, Beginning to West End, rumours of Network (which will happen) and Follies (which won't)
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Post by zahidf on Dec 28, 2017 0:58:01 GMT
2008 - High Point - Pitmen Painters which transferred to NY, Low point - Fram 2009 - High Point - All's Well That Ends Well, Low Point - Nation (no transfers as far as I'm aware) 2013 - High Point - From Morning to Midnight (not a widely shared one, I imagine), Low Point - Edward II (a great director flummoxed by the space) (again, no transfers as far as I'm aware) 2014 - High Point - James Plays (NTS deserve the artistic kudos maybe), Low Point - Treasure Island. Great Britain had a famously disastrous transfer, Elephantom played some matinees and James Plays went on tour. 2017 - High Point - Angels in America, Low Point - George & the Dragon. Angels transfer to NY, Beginning to West End, rumours of Network (which will happen) and Follies (which won't) Id say Salome and Common were worse than st george... I think the highs have been VERY good and the lows VERY bad. Id say its positive overall though, and commercially, its been very good overall. Pinnochio seems to be very successful for example. No flop Xmas musical this year! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 1:26:33 GMT
Give him a chance! His experiment is important. His invitation to new writers onto the big stages means that they will develop new skills. Most new writing has been relegated to the studios for over thirty years, and that has had a profound effect on new writing culture. Does anyone remember the monsterists,playwrights who campaigned for theatres to commission big plays from writers? A lot of ADs (including Hytner) pledged support but didn’t but didn’t commit. Well, Norris has taken the risk. He has to stick with it, but possibly needs better dramaturgical input to ensure the quality of the plays.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 1:36:15 GMT
Give him a chance! His experiment is important. His invitation to new writers onto the big stages means that they will develop new skills. Most new writing has been relegated to the studios for over thirty years, and that has had a profound effect on new writing culture. Does anyone remember the monsterists,playwrights who campaigned for theatres to commission big plays from writers? A lot of ADs (including Hytner) pledged support but didn’t but didn’t commit. Well, Norris has taken the risk. He has to stick with it, but possibly needs better dramaturgical input to ensure the quality of the plays. God Give him a chance They are supposedly Professionals It’s not preschool |
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Post by joem on Dec 28, 2017 1:56:16 GMT
Why is this thread in Plays? Just curious.
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Post by Phantom of London on Dec 28, 2017 8:56:56 GMT
Calling it now. He’ll have resigned by this time next year. Why are you doing this? This sort of vendetta looks more than a little suspicious, with being able to hide behind a screen name. Does anyone else find their eyes rolling practically all the way to the back of their skull whenever this thread drags its pathetic way back up to the top? I have opted not to contribute to this thread so far. as I find it abhorrent, atrocious and disappointing that a thread should be created about a person and whether they should be fired.
However I can contribute as their are fellow board members who seem to be on my wavelength and also that there is solid evidence that the Rufus is a successful Artistic Director, or as successful as his predecessor, who also had his fair share of flops, as well as highs.
All what remains to say, is that I hope that Rufus continues his good work in 2018.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 9:55:47 GMT
@parsley This is a kind request for you not to belittle or bully me online. I welcome any engagement with my comments that puts forward intelligent ideas, analysis, knowledge of theatre history etc, but petty insults and the like are demeaning to both of us.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 10:40:19 GMT
Starts off well, goes badly downhill. 2014 KING LEAR Olivier, National Theatre SMALL FAMILY BUSINESS, A Olivier, National Theatre MEDEA Olivier, National Theatre JAMES PLAYS Olivier, National Theatre BEHIND THE BEAUTIFUL FOREVERS Olivier, National Theatre TREASURE ISLAND Olivier, National Theatre TASTE OF HONEY, A Lyttelton, National Theatre SILVER TASSIE, THE Lyttelton, National Theatre GREAT BRITAIN Lyttelton, National Theatre BALLYTURK Lyttelton, National Theatre JOHN Lyttelton, National Theatre 3 WINTERS Lyttelton, National Theatre ELEPHANTOM, THE The Shed, National Theatre BLURRED LINES The Shed, National Theatre RIVERRUN The Shed, National Theatre CHEWING GUM DREAMS The Shed, National Theatre YELLOW FACE The Shed, National Theatre HOTEL Temporary Space, National Theatre Hmmm, I was going to defend RN, but these lists do show quite a contrast in quality... I'd still say that Norris has shown some flashes of real brilliance and maybe just needs time to find his groove. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 11:16:03 GMT
Starts off well, goes badly downhill. 2014 KING LEAR Olivier, National Theatre SMALL FAMILY BUSINESS, A Olivier, National Theatre MEDEA Olivier, National Theatre JAMES PLAYS Olivier, National Theatre BEHIND THE BEAUTIFUL FOREVERS Olivier, National Theatre TREASURE ISLAND Olivier, National Theatre TASTE OF HONEY, A Lyttelton, National Theatre SILVER TASSIE, THE Lyttelton, National Theatre GREAT BRITAIN Lyttelton, National Theatre BALLYTURK Lyttelton, National Theatre JOHN Lyttelton, National Theatre 3 WINTERS Lyttelton, National Theatre ELEPHANTOM, THE The Shed, National Theatre BLURRED LINES The Shed, National Theatre RIVERRUN The Shed, National Theatre CHEWING GUM DREAMS The Shed, National Theatre YELLOW FACE The Shed, National Theatre HOTEL Temporary Space, National Theatre Hmmm, I was going to defend RN, but these lists do show quite a contrast in quality... I'd still say that Norris has shown some flashes of real brilliance and maybe just needs time to find his groove. That's what I sad about people with different outlooks but I find the opposite, with more contemporary direction, wider play choices, a fair number of external transfers etc. Misfiring new plays in larger spaces yes, but that's nothing new for the NT and no change since the Hytner years. The real difference there is that Hytner never really tried in that area, which made some sense in to build up the audience but a very short termist outlook that is still reverberating through the building. New plays for the Olivier - 2008 - Her Naked Skin, Fram 2009 - England People Very Nice, Nation 2010 – Welcome to Thebes 2011 – Frankenstein, 13 2012 – Nothing…… 2013 - Emil & the Detectives 2014 - James Plays (barely counts as it's NTS driven), Behind the Beautiful Forevers 2015 - Everyman, Treasure Island 2016 - Nothing..... 2017 - St George & the Dragon. Salome, Common 2018 - So far, nothing, so maybe Norris is also giving up on new plays for the Olivier. It's not exactly a great list is it? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 12:02:20 GMT
Anyone who looks at Norris vs Hytner and still thinks their deeply negative opinion of Norris is valid is someone who clearly missed Fram, Nation, and England People Very Nice at a bare minimum.
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Post by lynette on Dec 28, 2017 12:37:46 GMT
Angels was interesting not only because Emily enlightened us all about much of it but because it was put on in the Lyttleton. I mentioned this at the time and was told that the director asked for this. It does have quiet intimate scenes for which a small space is good, though they had to,contend with the width of the stage. It also it has some really big stuff for which I thought the Olivier would be ideal. The Olivier is a very tough space to fill. There have been many shows that deal with this by putting the mechanics on stage, Brechtian as it were, but you can’t do this for everything and especially you can’t for say, Bernard Shaw. So it leaves our classical canon rather stretched on a huge stage and often you feel it exposes the material. Hytner produced the best Othello I’ve ever seen on this stage and managed to make small spaces and a sense of expansive desert, he also had Rory Kinnear who has that gift of holding the audience in his palm and making the huge space almost conspiratorial. At his best Kinnear is one of the few actors who can do this. So I think what I’m saying is that it is very hard to find plays that go on the Olivier with ease. These polemical state of the nation plays don’t cut it for me. We had too much of that with David Hare who decided to become our conscience rather than our playwright and we've had more recent examples, on the Olivier stage, thumping away at us. Maybe the way we write now, colloquially and all, ain’t suited to a huge auditorium. To be honest the best thing I’ve ever seen on that stage was Guys and Dolls. So Norris might like to try My Fair Lady....with real horses.....or a season of the Greek tragedies - in other words, big plays. I hate the Lyttleton too. No pleasing me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 12:51:23 GMT
The two times that I think a new play worked under Hytner were War Horse and Coram Boy and both were adaptations and straining to be musicals; nothing came near them, for me, in his last seven years or so. I just can't see any playwrights of now being a good fit either, both Bartlett and Bean have tried and failed, James Graham maybe worth a shot?
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Post by tributary on Dec 28, 2017 13:34:07 GMT
Anyone who looks at Norris vs Hytner and still thinks their deeply negative opinion of Norris is valid is someone who clearly missed Fram, Nation, and England People Very Nice at a bare minimum. But you’ve picked those three from across Hytner’s reign. Norris managed Common, St George and Salome this year. Having seen all three you mention, in my opinion only Fram was as poor as Norris’ 2017 trilogy. Personal tastes aside, it does seem clear from the lists that it’s difficult to argue that Norris, three years in, is a patch on Hytner as a producer and programmer. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 13:59:00 GMT
Personal tastes aside, it does seem clear..... Someone can seriously write that without any sense of irony? Over the last decade, there hasn't been a play originating in the Olivier that has transferred anywhere. Why not? That seems to be the important question, not blaming someone for trying to break out of that cycle by producing three in a year. Now Norris seems to have retreated to the safer revivals in 2018, I think that's short sighted but understandable given that history and the lack of deeper analysis from certain quarters, |
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Post by tributary on Dec 28, 2017 14:09:22 GMT
Personal tastes aside, it does seem clear..... Someone can seriously write that without any sense of irony? Over the last decade, there hasn't been a play originating in the Olivier that has transferred anywhere. Why not? That seems to be the important question, not blaming someone for trying to break out of that cycle by producing three in a year. Now Norris seems to have retreated to the safer revivals in 2018, I think that's short sighted but understandable given that history and the lack of deeper analysis from certain quarters, War Horse. |
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Post by jadnoop on Dec 28, 2017 14:10:49 GMT
As someone who probably goes to the theatre far less often than most here, it's interesting to see how intense some of the discussions about the relative merits of different creators & theatres gets on this board. It seems like discussions about sports teams. And taking the cue from the football in the 1980s & 90s, I trust that this will all culminate in a 'pro-Norris' vs 'anti-Norris' TheatreBoard brawl in front of the NT soon.  It'll be a dark day for theatre-dom when the front page of the tabloids has a photo of members of this board squaring off against each other, framed against the southbank concrete, with rolled up programmes set alight and ready to hurl at each other. I wonder what the headlines will be... |
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Post by tributary on Dec 28, 2017 14:26:12 GMT
As someone who probably goes to the theatre far less often than most here, it's interesting to see how intense some of the discussions about the relative merits of different creators & theatres gets on this board. It seems like discussions about sports teams. And taking the cue from the football in the 1980s & 90s, I trust that this will all culminate in a 'pro-Norris' vs 'anti-Norris' TheatreBoard brawl in front of the NT soon. It'll be a dark day for theatre-dom when the front page of the tabloids has a photo of members of this board squaring off against each other, framed against the southbank concrete, with rolled up programmes set alight and ready to hurl at each other. I wonder what the headlines will be... I would imagine some on here will be arguing that whether or not they’re covered in blood is a matter of personal opinion. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 14:53:08 GMT
@parsley This is a kind request for you not to belittle or bully me online. I welcome any engagement with my comments that puts forward intelligent ideas, analysis, knowledge of theatre history etc, but petty insults and the like are demeaning to both of us. I think "bully" is a tad strong. It can obviously be galling to have your point of view dismissed - as parsley is wont to do - but it is part and parcel of a forum like this, and we should try and be as robust about it as we can. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 15:52:49 GMT
@parsley This is a kind request for you not to belittle or bully me online. I welcome any engagement with my comments that puts forward intelligent ideas, analysis, knowledge of theatre history etc, but petty insults and the like are demeaning to both of us. I think "bully" is a tad strong. It can obviously be galling to have your point of view dismissed - as parsley is wont to do - but it is part and parcel of a forum like this, and we should try and be as robust about it as we can. I’ll be honest: It wasn’t being dismissed that I objected to so much, it was more to do with the fact that instead of an intelligent engagement with the argument he made a shrill, childish, petulant attack. And i’m pretty sure that Parsley is robust enough to fight their own battles. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 17:46:24 GMT
I’ll be honest: It wasn’t being dismissed that I objected to so much, it was more to do with the fact that instead of an intelligent engagement with the argument he made a shrill, childish, petulant attack. And i’m pretty sure that Parsley is robust enough to fight their own battles. Whether parsley is robust enough or not is hardly the point; you asked him not to "bully" you and I don't think that is a fair classification of what he was doing. "Bully" is a relatively serious accusation or insinuation, and prefacing it with a "kind request" doesn't undo that. I didn't see anyone else reference it, and I thought that perhaps somebody should. When I see comments like that on here (or anywhere really) then I may say something - and what with this being a public forum there aren't really any private disputes that you should expect others to respectfully opt out of. And now you say he made a "shrill, childish, petulant attack"; I don't know how helpful that is either. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 18:16:47 GMT
I’ll be honest: It wasn’t being dismissed that I objected to so much, it was more to do with the fact that instead of an intelligent engagement with the argument he made a shrill, childish, petulant attack. And i’m pretty sure that Parsley is robust enough to fight their own battles. Whether parsley is robust enough or not is hardly the point; you asked him not to "bully" you and I don't think that is a fair classification of what he was doing. "Bully" is a relatively serious accusation or insinuation, and prefacing it with a "kind request" doesn't undo that. I didn't see anyone else reference it, and I thought that perhaps somebody should. When I see comments like that on here (or anywhere really) then I may say something - and what with this being a public forum there aren't really any private disputes that you should expect others to respectfully opt out of. And now you say he made a "shrill, childish, petulant attack"; I don't know how helpful that is either. Yes, my use of the word "bully" was probably a bit strong. I stand by my point about intelligent engagement - the reference to "shrill...etc" was meant as irony - I admit probably too subtle. You said that I should be robust enough enough to handle forum speak and I was demonstrating that you and Parsley should also have the same fortitude - but you have proved this not to be the case. Listen, there is an interesting discussion taking place on this thread and I propose that we not get in its way with this line of discussion. Send me a message if you want to continue - however I will not reply. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 18:37:01 GMT
Whether parsley is robust enough or not is hardly the point; you asked him not to "bully" you and I don't think that is a fair classification of what he was doing. "Bully" is a relatively serious accusation or insinuation, and prefacing it with a "kind request" doesn't undo that. I didn't see anyone else reference it, and I thought that perhaps somebody should. When I see comments like that on here (or anywhere really) then I may say something - and what with this being a public forum there aren't really any private disputes that you should expect others to respectfully opt out of. And now you say he made a "shrill, childish, petulant attack"; I don't know how helpful that is either. Yes, my use of the word "bully" was probably a bit strong. I stand by my point about intelligent engagement - the reference to "shrill...etc" was meant as irony - I admit probably too subtle. You said that I should be robust enough enough to handle forum speak and I was demonstrating that you and Parsley should also have the same fortitude - but you have proved this not to be the case. Listen, there is an interesting discussion taking place on this thread and I propose that we not get in its way with this line of discussion. Send me a message if you want to continue - however I will not reply. Oh, I'm pretty robust. I just think people should stand behind what they say. I also think your point about intelligent engagement is a good one, so am happy to leave this side-pot discussion about the use of the term "bully" as it stands. Thank you for acknowledging that your use was a bit strong. |
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Post by kathryn on Dec 28, 2017 20:07:20 GMT
The ignore function is a wonderful thing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 21:34:16 GMT
Someone can seriously write that without any sense of irony? Over the last decade, there hasn't been a play originating in the Olivier that has transferred anywhere. Why not? That seems to be the important question, not blaming someone for trying to break out of that cycle by producing three in a year. Now Norris seems to have retreated to the safer revivals in 2018, I think that's short sighted but understandable given that history and the lack of deeper analysis from certain quarters, War Horse. Out by a couple of months, that was October 2007, more than a decade ago. Nothing since then. |
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Post by tributary on Dec 28, 2017 21:44:01 GMT
Interesting. In 2007 the Olivier also had SRB in Much Ado and Anne-Marie Duff in St Joan. Hytner’s Hamlet with Kinnear played a tour after the Olivier and then transferred back to the Lyttleton.
You’re also not right about new plays never working in there. Her Naked Skin was excellent in 2008. Welcome to Thebes was a fair chalk above any of this year’s offerings. This House and London Road played better in there than they had in the Dorfman.
The real thing I felt looking at the Olivier list was the higher calibre of director Hytner seemed to be able consistently to attract. Norris either doesn’t like talent or doesn’t have the relationships or both.
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