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Post by n1david on Sept 5, 2017 16:34:38 GMT
Well, it’s ballot time again for Punchdrunk’s new show which sounds... intriguing, possibly wonderful and possibly a complete trial. It’s six hours long on the streets of London for an audience of two at a time... If you want to apply, the link is at the Punchdrunk website here: www.punchdrunk.org.uk/kabeiroiBallot closes Sunday night at 6pm, show runs 26 Sep - 5 Nov Note the rather unusual T&Cs: |
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Post by Steffi on Sept 5, 2017 16:42:30 GMT
I'm very excited for this. Lucky enough to get to see it during previews. Have been waiting for another London based show.
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Post by rockinrobin on Sept 5, 2017 16:54:34 GMT
This sounds very intriguing and exciting so I entered the ballot (didn't get any confirmation email though so I'm not sure if it worked). Some critics are ranting on Twitter about the ballot though - what, no free tickets again?...
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Post by n1david on Sept 5, 2017 17:00:06 GMT
This sounds very intriguing and exciting so I entered the ballot (didn't get any confirmation email though so I'm not sure if it worked) I got a confirmation, but several hours later. (I really wanted my 500th post to be something more excitiing) |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2017 17:54:59 GMT
I'm not SO angry about the ballot (I get that the nature of it means it has to be fairly restricted and that a ballot is in fairness the most fair way to do it) I AM slighty irritated you can only buy in pairs, just because of the pure logistical nightmare it will pose...Anyway I'll cross that bridge if I have to I guess...
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Post by oxfordsimon on Sept 5, 2017 18:05:13 GMT
I have entered the ballot even though I don't have a plus one...
However I am sure I can find one for this
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Post by Steffi on Sept 5, 2017 19:55:12 GMT
I'm not SO angry about the ballot (I get that the nature of it means it has to be fairly restricted and that a ballot is in fairness the most fair way to do it) I AM slighty irritated you can only buy in pairs, just because of the pure logistical nightmare it will pose...Anyway I'll cross that bridge if I have to I guess... I don't think finding a plus one will be a problem considering how popular this already is. If you get chosen and can't find someone I know dozens of people who will happily join you (they're all nice too, promised). :-) On a general note, there will be a total of 864 tickets available (so 432 pairs). |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2017 20:31:37 GMT
What the hell are they going to do to pregnant women??
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2017 21:14:44 GMT
I loved Punchdrunk when I attended The Drowned Man. I really did. And I would love to go and see something else by them. But either they want me to go or they don't. Ballots? Really? No thanks. I'm not that desperate that I want to tell them how much I like them only for them to tell me they don't want me.
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Post by jadnoop on Sept 5, 2017 23:46:21 GMT
I loved Punchdrunk when I attended The Drowned Man. I really did. And I would love to go and see something else by them. But either they want me to go or they don't. Ballots? Really? No thanks. I'm not that desperate that I want to tell them how much I like them only for them to tell me they don't want me. Pardon me for saying, but this is an odd way of thinking about what seems to be the most fair way of allocating the tickets. I mean, in practice, this isn't very different from a normal online ticket sale: Instead of refreshing a website and hoping your connection happens to get through before other peoples' does, you hope that your name is picked out of a hat. If anything, this system is fairer, since people aren't penalised for having poor/no internet access, or if they can't get time off work at a specific moment in time, or whatever. Given how far demand is going to outstrip supply, there was always going to be a huge number of disappointed people, but I'm not clear that there's any fairer way of choosing who gets the tickets. |
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Post by lonlad on Sept 6, 2017 0:02:05 GMT
So nice not to have to even think about getting a ticket. First HAMLET, now this, soon they'll be balloting attendance at FOLLIES .....
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Post by lynette on Sept 6, 2017 5:22:47 GMT
Six hours. Kidnapping not theatre. What do I know?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 6:10:14 GMT
So nice not to have to even think about getting a ticket. First HAMLET, now this, soon they'll be balloting attendance at FOLLIES ..... Could be far worse I suppose if they ballot the use of the NT toilets before and after the show. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 7:48:55 GMT
I'm not SO angry about the ballot (I get that the nature of it means it has to be fairly restricted and that a ballot is in fairness the most fair way to do it) I AM slighty irritated you can only buy in pairs, just because of the pure logistical nightmare it will pose...Anyway I'll cross that bridge if I have to I guess... I don't think finding a plus one will be a problem considering how popular this already is. If you get chosen and can't find someone I know dozens of people who will happily join you (they're all nice too, promised). :-) On a general note, there will be a total of 864 tickets available (so 432 pairs). Oh yes I'm sure I wouldn't struggle at all! A lot of people are getting very angry about this on twitter...and I can't qutie work up the anger I had even for Hamlet. For me this is what Punchdrunk (and similar companies) do- it's a niche, small experience based work, so it will be limited. As much as I really want another 'Drowned Man' or 'Sleep No More' Punchdrunk and companies like You Me Bum Bum Train do this type of work and it is what it is...I don't know it seems less 'unfair' than the putting a popular Hamlet in a theatre so small it seems to deliberatly be to shut people out. Anwyay the critics getting themselves in a strop over this have been highly entertaining. |
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Post by kathryn on Sept 6, 2017 8:01:47 GMT
My question is: at what point does this stop being 'theatre', and become some other kind of experience?
That's not to say it won't be a great experience, but it does sound more like a one of those themed scavenger hunt experience things but with added actors.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 8:10:33 GMT
My question is: at what point does this stop being 'theatre', and become some other kind of experience? That's not to say it won't be a great experience, but it does sound more like a one of those themed scavenger hunt experience things but with added actors. I think I already see it as almost that...something on it's own seperate from theatre? which is why I both remain a bit 'meh' about the 'experience' and indifferent to the ballot situation? Generally immersive theatre is not my 'bag' but I make an exception for a Punchdrunk show having been won over by Drowned Man. However when it starts to involve battling Tube crowds and whatnot it seems less 'theatrical' more 'experience' which is fine...just a different thing. I don't know... Whereas the Hamlet situation was definatly a 'select few will cast eyes on this theatrical work' so annoyed me more in principle. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 8:12:17 GMT
I honestly think the people who get angriest about ballots are the people who are angry that they are designed to be fair and thus cannot be gamed. Non-regular theatre-goers tend to just go "omg I hope I win", and most regular theatre-goers see exactly what jadnoop has pointed out, that a ballot is just as much of a crap shoot as opening the website on the day and hoping the random queue assignation works out in your favour but with less of the on-the-day stress. I'm confident all regular theatre-goers have their own little ways to game booking systems (probably the most common one is opening the website in different browsers and seeing which one puts you further forward in the queue), and I see the frustration in a system that cannot be gamed (I confess I had a good go at seeing if the RADA booking system could be tricked), but I can't deny the fairness. There's going to be random allocations and luck involved however tickets go on sale, but a ballot gives a newbie the same chance as someone who has spent decades developing a bag of tricks to get them even a fraction ahead of the game. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 8:22:34 GMT
Exactly that @baemax I actually don't see a lot of complaining from the more 'casual' theatre fans out there mainly from a cohort of critics and general whingers (two are not mutually exclusive) who feel they are entitled to if not get ahead of the system then cheat it...
My issue with Hamlet was not so much the ballot but the deliberate 'we're going to make sure it's super exclusive' in a bit of a sneery bitchy way. Otherwise I'm frankly on board with a ballot if there's a decent amount of tickets- Cumber-Hamlet for example would have been managed far better by ballot I think.
Anyway, Punchdrunk...will there be 'Psycho Greek Toy Shop Owner' or similar I wonder? I look forward to the reports...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 8:32:33 GMT
Yes, I thought it was very good of the CumberHamlet crew to see that the demand was going to be huge and thus pick a theatre to match. I seem to recall they did do a ballot, but now I think about it, maybe that was only for the £10 tickets. I know I didn't win, but then I was able to buy a £10 ticket anyway once they'd worked out the sightlines and I guess just decided not to do a ballot again. (And how many non-regular theatre-goers would know that sold out almost never means sold out and it is always worth haunting websites for late releases and random returns?)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 8:35:43 GMT
Yes, I thought it was very good of the CumberHamlet crew to see that the demand was going to be huge and thus pick a theatre to match. I seem to recall they did do a ballot, but now I think about it, maybe that was only for the £10 tickets. I know I didn't win, but then I was able to buy a £10 ticket anyway once they'd worked out the sightlines and I guess just decided not to do a ballot again. (And how many non-regular theatre-goers would know that sold out almost never means sold out and it is always worth haunting websites for late releases and random returns?) Yes I think that was it too...I also like a theatre that genuinely makes an effort with some affordable tickets in whatever means they can. Obviously not everyone will be able to access them whatever so I kind of like a ballot for the cheapest ones because that is one of the most fair ways to do that. I love my small theatres and the chance to see actors there, but also if places are going to do Big Star Casting a theatre that can accomdate Big Star Audiences seems a fairer way for all. |
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Post by kathryn on Sept 6, 2017 8:56:09 GMT
I honestly think the people who get angriest about ballots are the people who are angry that they are designed to be fair and thus cannot be gamed. Non-regular theatre-goers tend to just go "omg I hope I win", and most regular theatre-goers see exactly what jadnoop has pointed out, that a ballot is just as much of a crap shoot as opening the website on the day and hoping the random queue assignation works out in your favour but with less of the on-the-day stress. I'm confident all regular theatre-goers have their own little ways to game booking systems (probably the most common one is opening the website in different browsers and seeing which one puts you further forward in the queue), and I see the frustration in a system that cannot be gamed (I confess I had a good go at seeing if the RADA booking system could be tricked), but I can't deny the fairness. There's going to be random allocations and luck involved however tickets go on sale, but a ballot gives a newbie the same chance as someone who has spent decades developing a bag of tricks to get them even a fraction ahead of the game. Whereas I believe complete reliance on chance is fundamentally unfair, precisely because it stops people bettering their chances through effort, knowledge, passion and dedication. This is one of those core belief things - I have a fundamental belief that effort, knowledge, passion and dedication should be rewarded in life. I think it's generally bad if there is no link at all between effort, knowledge, passion and dedication and achievement. Ballot systems give everyone the same chance, but some of those people with an equal chance will not care much about the outcome at all and some will passionately care. It offends my basic sensibilities when someone who passionately cares about something misses out on it so someone whose response to it is 'meh' can experience it instead. Mind you, with Punchdrunk I doubt anyone will enter the ballot who is not a huge fan, so I guess that's a far less likely outcome. Mind you, |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 9:12:26 GMT
Whereas I believe complete reliance on chance is fundamentally unfair, precisely because it stops people bettering their chances through effort, knowledge, passion and dedication. This is one of those core belief things - I have a fundamental belief that effort, knowledge, passion and dedication should be rewarded in life. I think it's generally bad if there is no link at all between effort, knowledge, passion and dedication and achievement. Ballot systems give everyone the same chance, but some of those people with an equal chance will not care much about the outcome at all and some will passionately care. It offends my basic sensibilities when someone who passionately cares about something misses out on it so someone whose response to it is 'meh' can experience it instead. Mind you, with Punchdrunk I doubt anyone will enter the ballot who is not a huge fan, so I guess that's a far less likely outcome. Yeah, but we're not talking about a job interview or some other career development opportunity where I would absolutely agree with you, we're talking about buying theatre tickets. There's something deeply insidious about the idea of someone's level of engagement with a cultural property making a difference. I genuinely don't understand why a person who comes new to a thing with no idea whether they'll like it or not is a less valid audience member than someone who's been into a thing for decades. It smacks of gatekeeping, and as a woman who's had the absolutely ridiculous and offensive "oh so you're a fan of [thing] well prove it by answering my trivia questions and I'll decide if you're a real fan or not" conversation more times than she would care to, I'm quite done with that, especially as a person who has only just found a thing can still be just as passionate about it as a person who's known about the thing for ten times as long. It's impossible to accurately gauge how much a person likes a thing, it really shouldn't have to matter, and thinking we can/should police that can only end in tears. Look at what happened to King Lear for heaven's sake. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 10:16:05 GMT
Probably with this show, every participant's experience will be unique, and many will share it with friends and on blogs and so on. And that continuing afterlife will be accessible to many more people than the ballot-winners.
My favourite theatre show of last year was We're Here Because We're Here. I didn't see any of it live and I only heard of its existence when it was already happening but it had and has a powerful presence.
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Post by kathryn on Sept 6, 2017 10:18:44 GMT
Whereas I believe complete reliance on chance is fundamentally unfair, precisely because it stops people bettering their chances through effort, knowledge, passion and dedication. This is one of those core belief things - I have a fundamental belief that effort, knowledge, passion and dedication should be rewarded in life. I think it's generally bad if there is no link at all between effort, knowledge, passion and dedication and achievement. Ballot systems give everyone the same chance, but some of those people with an equal chance will not care much about the outcome at all and some will passionately care. It offends my basic sensibilities when someone who passionately cares about something misses out on it so someone whose response to it is 'meh' can experience it instead. Mind you, with Punchdrunk I doubt anyone will enter the ballot who is not a huge fan, so I guess that's a far less likely outcome. Yeah, but we're not talking about a job interview or some other career development opportunity where I would absolutely agree with you, we're talking about buying theatre tickets. There's something deeply insidious about the idea of someone's level of engagement with a cultural property making a difference. I genuinely don't understand why a person who comes new to a thing with no idea whether they'll like it or not is a less valid audience member than someone who's been into a thing for decades. It smacks of gatekeeping, and as a woman who's had the absolutely ridiculous and offensive "oh so you're a fan of [thing] well prove it by answering my trivia questions and I'll decide if you're a real fan or not" conversation more times than she would care to, I'm quite done with that, especially as a person who has only just found a thing can still be just as passionate about it as a person who's known about the thing for ten times as long. It's impossible to accurately gauge how much a person likes a thing, it really shouldn't have to matter, and thinking we can/should police that can only end in tears. Look at what happened to King Lear for heaven's sake. That's a very valid point. Cognitive dissonance ahoy! This is only really an issue when you have cultural products of huge popularity but extreme scarcity. With the vast majority of cultural products the hard-core fan can get privileged access but newbies can have more casual access that will satisfy their more casual interest. Such as NT Live screenings, for theatre, or a DVD of a sold-out concert tour. I would have loved been at Centre Court to watch Andy Murray win Wimbledon, but I wasn't willing to become a member of Wimbledon and jump through their hoops to apply for tickets/pay a large amount of money for a VIP package/get up there and camp out overnight to be first in the queue to hopefully get in when I could just watch it on the telly instead. Artificially creating extreme scarcity for your hugely in-demand cultural product and only allowing ballot access so that it's impossible to win access via effort just seems unfair. With Punchdrunk it's because they have an artistic vision for the experience that's unique, at least - and the fabled one-on-one has long been a feature of their work. It's not an artificially-created constraint. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 10:29:20 GMT
I was just about to say that both @baemax and kathryn have valid points on it- it's a tricky one to reconcile. On one hand I hate when fans have an 'ownership' of a thing to the point that it feels like without 'proving' yourself you aren't welcome (Hello Globe audiences, this is why I only use your theatre for the toilets now) But also as a fan it's frustrating when you feel shut out of something you feel far more passionate about than others you know have tickets. But to take it back to Punchdrunk, in their case it is rightly a part of their overall artistic 'ethos' as it were to be exclusive and secret so it doesn't feel as bad. |
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