Grenfell Tower Kensington blaze

Well that depends on how many people were living in those two bedroom flats doesn't it.

Indications are that a range of people lived there but the media aren't inventing poor people in there.

It's somewhat ironic to blame the 'internet generation' when you are on an internet forum and are no more informed than anyone else.

And spreading innuendo, which a minute's research would have easily explained. 

If that was you not being judgemental I'd hate to see it when you actually are!

Well this incident has probably removed close to 100 surplus people.

Have some compassion. Really now is not the time.

It's Parsley, what do you expect?

Parsley made a perfectly sensible remark in seeking to widen the debate beyond 'blame the government'. There is a lot of talk about rights these days and very little about responsibilities. Each individual needs to step up and start thinking about their life; the way they lead it; the freedom they want others to have to live possibly very different lives; where the compromises are to be found; where we might have to (shock! horror!) shell out for either our own desires, or those of others, to be affordable or workable. That burden can't just be borne by the top 5% of earners, I'm afraid.. So either we pay up more, or we use less resources. I'm not sure what's so terrible about raising that as a point for debate?

For what it's worth, I'm frankly astonished at the politicised reaction to this horrendous event. We've known about the divide between rich and poor for centuries. In particular, the divide in prosperous cities. This isn't peculiar to London. Go to pretty much any European city and you'll see the same. So why the sudden maiden-aunt shocked reaction to what this fire has thrown into relief? We're all complicit. Perhaps that's why we're so angry?

Edited to add: Oops sorry Parsley, messages crossed!

Prob with Kensington is that the 'divide ' is so visible. Often across streets!

Housing is always political. Fire safety services are always political. Regulation is always political. The way that councils administer their duties is always political. The needless deaths of so many people due to the failures of all those things is definitely political. To claim dismay about this tragedy being 'politicised' is nonsensical.

This is the truth of it: keeping your citizens safe, secure, and healthy so that they can live productive lives is the very heart of politics. That it is what it is for. That is the everyday job of politics. When something like this happens it is because politics on multiple levels has failed. Scrutiny of how and why it failed is an absolute necessity.

The fact that a number of these flats were being rented for upwards of £400 per week not set off any alarm bells.Look at the people who died. People with good jobs, people with a fair degree of money. What world do you have to be in to suggest these people are taking and not paying back?

Trying to pin blame on the consumer is asinine, the blame necessarily goes higher, with the people who are providing such a shoddy service, at all levels. In the short term they need to be brought to book but there are more long term issues.

This is a personal view but I think that the problem is actually much, much bigger. It comes down to the way that work and society is currently structured. That the concentration of a workforce into small areas and the pressure that creates on space, services and so on is unsustainable. A more sustainable society needs to be more decentralised, with people being able to work near affordable homes in areas with competent transport structures. Of course, such a massive project would never attract political favour as it is too long term, too investment heavy to be achievable in a five year term and too easily characterised as utopian.

With the challenges we face in terms of economy, climate, energy and areas of overpopulation, we've got to start thinking radically, however. I don't think it's the same as was suggested above regarding people needing to change as individuals, the reason being that they cannot move to jobs and housing that does not exist. It is down to government to provide and maintain the infrastructure that allows people to do so. Government leads, that is what they are (supposedly) for.

Earlier he attacked the guy who's fridge apparently exploded. So it's no surprise people reacted badly when he starts going on about personal responsibility given that context. He's since claimed he's talking about the government but his point didn't read like that.

And for me i don't really see the point of this relentless focus on people taking more responsibility and a wider debate around resource at a time when many people have died from something easily preventable within our current system.

He wants an open and honest debate on what we can afford but this could have easily been afforded.

Complete deflection again I see.

People took responsibility, they formed an action group, they warned the authorities and they were ignored.

Other countries have banned the materials involved and put in place more stringent regulations about fire safety.

The question is why couldn't we do this. Why have attempts to change things since the last tower block fire gone nowhere, why have the government recently watered down regulation over sprinklers in schools.

I've already said we should all look at the choices we make but both local and national government have a lot of questions to answer.