2,702 posts
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Post by viserys on May 2, 2017 16:59:44 GMT
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5,059 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on May 2, 2017 17:45:46 GMT
We had 2 musicals eligible for Tony nomination: Groundhog Day and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.
Where we do triumph is re-imaganing Broadway classics, where the Color Purple won the Tony last like, like La Cage Aux Folles did. Gypsy is still rumoured to be Broadway bound.
So it is not all gloom and doom and remember Miss Saigon and Sunset Boulevard playing Broadway tonight all started life in London.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 18:09:13 GMT
We had 2 musicals eligible for Tony nomination: Groundhog Day and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Where we do triumph is re-imaganing Broadway classics, where the Color Purple won the Tony last like, like La Cage Aux Folles did. Gypsy is still rumoured to be Broadway bound. So it is not all gloom and doom and remember Miss Saigon and Sunset Boulevard playing Broadway tonight all started life in London. Yes you are right, London always smashes the quality of musical revivals in the West End, we always do it better than Broadway. There are more musical revivals opening in the West End each year than on Broadway but Broadway is more risky in terms of the more new musicals opening each year. The only true British musicals we've had recently are The Girls, Made in Dagenham (which I think would've lasted longer at a smaller venue), Mrs H Presents, Matilda and Charlie. Kinky Boots would've been a great British musical had it started in the Uk - great British story with British humour, no idea why it didn't start over here! The Bodyguard is also British too although set in America. Cilla is upcoming too. You have to hand it to the producers tho, without them there would be no new musicals. It's very risky especially given the state of new musicals in London at the moment. Producers are scared to loose money but without new shows it could get boring! I think the West End always does better plays than Broadway and gets fab casts but Broadway does beat it in terms of BRAND NEW musicals but London beat them in musical revivals.
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131 posts
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Post by primitivewallflower on May 2, 2017 20:33:43 GMT
1) In the USA the tax structure is very different. The cash the wealthy can use to support new musicals flows far more freely. The risk is higher, but worth taking for them. They can afford to "think big" from the very start in a way the UK can't. If you take Miz - that was using public cash to start with, and much else followed for Big Mac after. If we take that as being the same as US tax breaks, the result is the same. I think there's an economic angle too but I see it differently. The cost of producing a Broadway show is more expensive than West End for a whole host of different reasons -- stronger NYC unions, generally (IMHO) higher standards of physical theatre infrastructure in NYC, fewer subsidies in the States, etc. One side-effect of this higher cost is that it's incentivized the network of feeder regional theatres / workshops that incubate so many of Broadway's hits. The upside is that it's a way of managing risk and so makes investors more comfortable engaging with musicals (the downside is that you could argue it homogenizes shows). Let's remember too that while theatre and cinema are distinct art forms, many skills are substitutable between them and the industries do compete with one another for writing, musical, and production talent to a certain extent. But this is contained in the US by both its large population and also by physical distance. The epicenter of the US film industry, Los Angeles, is on the complete opposite side of the continent from the epicenter of the US theatre industry, New York (fun fact: Baghdad is closer to London than LA is to NY). That doesn't eliminate cross-pollination between theatre and cinema but it has given each industry the elbow room to grow independent talent ecosystems in the US. By contrast, in the UK each of these industries is London-based which I would guess has stunted the growth of each.
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5,059 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on May 2, 2017 21:59:38 GMT
TheatreMonkey make some great point, as does primitive wallflower.
I agree with the economics of producing on Broadway, take Groundhog Day, it came with a price tag of a hefty $18.5m, but hello all that dosh for a musical that realised and developed in London, the sets and costumes were all done here, so this is a breathtaking figure. It look like Broadway is too chubby, with too many middle management.
I never realised shipping was so expensive.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 8:04:10 GMT
People are pretty overweight in this country, maybe everybody's fingers are too chubby to play the piano? Which would explain why Gary Barlow has taken over
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 8:13:12 GMT
Or maybe since ALW died we have to come to terms with the fact that we r just not talented enough? Sure, we can poo plays but we just talentless schmucks when it comes to show ditties
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 8:15:27 GMT
Another angle money-wise is in the subsidised sector musicals are funded far less by the various awarding bodies. So there's less of the innovative grass roots stuff happening, work shopping new stuff because there isn't (as above) the commercial money, but also musicals don't generally attract as much of the funding pots in grants either. My personal theory on this is that it comes from both sides- people making musicals don't think they'll be taken seriously for funding, so don't apply, less apply so when the do, it's a more unknown commodity so less likely to make it through in a competitive field...and also a chunk of good old fashioned snobbery from some areas too The subsidised sector is a relatively tiny area, but if we were nurturing composers the way we do playwrights then we'd have more UK based composers that aren't former boyband members.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 8:37:56 GMT
Another angle money-wise is in the subsidised sector musicals are funded far less by the various awarding bodies. So there's less of the innovative grass roots stuff happening, work shopping new stuff because there isn't (as above) the commercial money, but also musicals don't generally attract as much of the funding pots in grants either. My personal theory on this is that it comes from both sides- people making musicals don't think they'll be taken seriously for funding, so don't apply, less apply so when the do, it's a more unknown commodity so less likely to make it through in a competitive field...and also a chunk of good old fashioned snobbery from some areas too The subsidised sector is a relatively tiny area, but if we were nurturing composers the way we do playwrights then we'd have more UK based composers that aren't former boyband members. Yes but no. A valid point, but the likes of Phantom, Les Mis, Oliver, Saigon, etc. the musicals with effect and long standing presence never came from grants or funding pots. Correct me if I'm wrong but no 'hit musical' has ever come from a funded application based background.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 8:43:23 GMT
Another angle money-wise is in the subsidised sector musicals are funded far less by the various awarding bodies. So there's less of the innovative grass roots stuff happening, work shopping new stuff because there isn't (as above) the commercial money, but also musicals don't generally attract as much of the funding pots in grants either. My personal theory on this is that it comes from both sides- people making musicals don't think they'll be taken seriously for funding, so don't apply, less apply so when the do, it's a more unknown commodity so less likely to make it through in a competitive field...and also a chunk of good old fashioned snobbery from some areas too The subsidised sector is a relatively tiny area, but if we were nurturing composers the way we do playwrights then we'd have more UK based composers that aren't former boyband members. Yes but no. A valid point, but the likes of Phantom, Les Mis, Oliver, Saigon, etc. the musicals with effect and long standing presence never came from grants or funding pots. Correct me if I'm wrong but no 'hit musical' has ever come from a funded application based background. I wasn't saying it was the definitive element- I said this went along with what Monkey and others were saying about the commercial element.
But the point I think is valid that if we were as a nation investing in musical theatre composers in this way it wouldn't have a negative impact. And no, we haven't had a hit from that kind of source because relatively so little is put into it...so that theory isn't that strong either.
Musicals on the whole are always going to come from the commercial sector, on the larger scale being so expensive to run they simply need to be. However, I do believe that we could create a clutch of 'Jason Robert Browns' or 'Duncan Sheiks' (both of whom started and continue to do work on the smaller scale end but are critically regarded) if the arts funding sector did direct a bit more into that sector.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 9:27:46 GMT
Yes 100% agree with that- we had next to no music education in our school, and being in a fairly deprived area as a whole very few students had external music tuition. I remember there being musicals put on before my time in school but in my 5 years in High School nothing. As a result I can't really read music and have no technical knowledge so despite being fairly 'musical' in that I can sing well (by ear) my actual musical knowledge stalled at around 10 years old. And not coming from a 'musical' or 'arty' home there was no drive to push it outside school even if we could have afforded it (we couldn't)
So without the very basic training we're left with a very limited pool to draw on. And many of those who do pursue music are still pushed the 'classical' route because that's still seen as superior.
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1,103 posts
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Post by mallardo on May 3, 2017 10:04:45 GMT
Interesting. When I was in high school in Toronto we had quite a lot of music in the classroom plus a school orchestra, a jazz band (I played tenor sax and clarinet), a marching band, a choir and recitals from the more accomplished students. This was just a regular city school. I'm pretty sure that much of my taste in music was developed there. Plus, I think it's a given now that music education improves the overall learning ability of students. Listening IS learning.
It was my impression that US schools did even more in that regard - witness some of the amazing high school musical productions on YouTube - although recently that sort of thing has come under fire from the Right Wing who have no interest in educating the masses beyond basic job skills.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 10:14:36 GMT
Yup from my Canadian and American friends it seems that (at least in the past) music in both classroom and extra-curricular is more a part of life- and the money put into things like bands and musicals is evident from just those youtube clips. In the UK your musical set in the 80s and 90s would have been made of cardboard and poster paint!
One of our music teachers went sick about a month into Year 9 and we basically had no music classes that year. As a result we also didn't have the option for a GCSE in music in my school.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 16:50:33 GMT
People are pretty overweight in this country, maybe everybody's fingers are too chubby to play the piano? Which would explain why Gary Barlow has taken over Ah yes, because everyone's so incredibly skinny in America.
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5,059 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on May 3, 2017 20:02:45 GMT
However in the UK could argue that politics are always meddling with the curriculum and have unrelenting standards.
I am not sure in North America if you also have to do Languages (French and Spanish ((4/5 year option)), Religious Studies (A Waste of Time) and History (4/5 year option)?
On top of;
Maths English Games Physical Education Personal Development Science (4/5 year option) Further Science (4/5 year option) Geography (4/5 year option) Sociology (3rd year, the 4/5 year option) Technical Drawing (4/5 year option) Home Economics (4/5 year option) Craft, Design and Technology (4/5 year option) Art (4/5 year option) Music (4/5 year option) Drama Personal Development (4/5 year option)
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131 posts
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Post by primitivewallflower on May 4, 2017 13:53:18 GMT
However in the UK could argue that politics are always meddling with the curriculum and have unrelenting standards. I am not sure in North America if you also have to do Languages (French and Spanish ((4/5 year option)), Religious Studies (A Waste of Time) and History (4/5 year option)? On top of; Maths English Games Physical Education Personal Development Science (4/5 year option) Further Science (4/5 year option) Geography (4/5 year option) Sociology (3rd year, the 4/5 year option) Technical Drawing (4/5 year option) Home Economics (4/5 year option) Craft, Design and Technology (4/5 year option) Art (4/5 year option) Music (4/5 year option) Drama Personal Development (4/5 year option) The irony of all this is that Americans have a deep inferiority complex about the arts in their education curriculum (the film Mr. Holland's Opus captures this). I have little doubt that the average American just assumes that the UK *must* have better arts programs in their schools. Grass is always greener, etc. But I'm not sure that, in reality, things are significantly better or worse in the US. It varies by state and region of course, but I think it's fair to say that a typical middle-class state-run suburban high school in the US will in all likelihood have a marching band and/or an orchestra, and a drama program that may do a play prior to Christmas and then a musical right before summer. Lacking these options isn't unheard of, particularly in the past or in rural or poorer areas today, but close to cities their absence would probably raise eyebrows among parents nowadays. Larger high schools in and around major cities may have further options, e.g. a dance troupe or a Shakespeare company. Quality varies widely, as you'd expect. Medium-to-large cities may have one or two schools particularly well-known for their drama programs, and the others will be... well, passable, but not extraordinary. Some US cities now also have magnet (specialist) state-run schools devoted to the arts, and they tend to be quite good (Lin-Manuel Miranda for example went to magnet state-run high school in New York, though it didn't specialize in the arts per se, it was for smart kids generally). The actual education component varies even more widely than the actual programs or activities. The US doesn't have a national curriculum and even most US states don't have a state-wide curriculum; it varies regionally. Some schools offer an array of formal classes that students can take in tandem with their arts activities. Other schools don't offer much in the way of classes but may give students equivalent credit for the time they spend participating in each arts program. Furthermore, some schools *require* a certain amount of arts-related credit, others do not. The other dynamic to keep in mind here that's driving parental demand for these programs is university. US secondary education has become increasingly tailored toward making students competitive for university admissions. This should not be *over* emphasized since the bulk of Americans go to state-run colleges or universities where admissions is minimally competitive. But in the US any state-funded or private university that is at least mildly competitive tends to take a holistic view of applicants: looking not just at standardized testing and academic achievement but also activities. This desire to have kids with a bit of balance fuels some of the demand for, and participation in, US arts programs. All of this is to say: while there are definitely individual US secondary schools that are stellar at drama, it's not something I'd expect to be significantly better *in the education system as a whole* than the UK.
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Post by Phantom of London on May 4, 2017 23:34:03 GMT
Okay brilliant answer.
Out of interest would you guys have to do languages, Religious Studies or History?
Why I ask the U.S. doesn't have near neighbours that speak languages and the U.S. Being the biggest country in the world, would expect other countries to speak their language.
History, we spent forever learning about the British monarchy, which America doesn't have.
Religious Studies, not sure if you would teach this, I always assume religion in America is about personal choice.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 0:05:22 GMT
What on earth is 'Drama personal development', or is that supposed to be two separate subjects?
I was involved in a tour around Illinois/Wisconsin schools some twenty years ago and the theatres in some (though not all) schools were astonishing, serving as the local theatre as well. Double tiered auditoriums, stage sizes that wouldn't be out of place in a medium size West End theatre etc.
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Post by forb4 on May 5, 2017 1:06:59 GMT
Okay brilliant answer. Out of interest would you guys have to do languages, Religious Studies or History? Why I ask the U.S. doesn't have near neighbours that speak languages and the U.S. Being the biggest country in the world, would expect other countries to speak their language. History, we spent forever learning about the British monarchy, which America doesn't have. Religious Studies, not sure if you would teach this, I always assume religion in America is about personal choice. Talking from my high school experience: Everyone was required to take 2 years of a foreign language but you can take up to 4 years if you wanted. Our choices were between Spanish, French, Japanese, ASL, and German. History, we also spent ages on the British monarchy. Sophomore year was World History, Junior was American History, and Senior year was Goverment and Econ. European history was an elective. No religious studies (that was incorporated in History) but I came from a highly Mormon area so those kids could take Seminary.
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131 posts
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Post by primitivewallflower on May 5, 2017 2:17:14 GMT
Okay brilliant answer. Out of interest would you guys have to do languages, Religious Studies or History? Why I ask the U.S. doesn't have near neighbours that speak languages and the U.S. Being the biggest country in the world, would expect other countries to speak their language. History, we spent forever learning about the British monarchy, which America doesn't have. Religious Studies, not sure if you would teach this, I always assume religion in America is about personal choice. Languages are a standard requirement in American high schools, but the years required vary from one to all four years. In general, language education in the US is focused on vocabulary and rules of grammar rather than conversation; in other words, highly frustrating and impractical. Spanish is a bit easier for students to immerse themselves in thanks to the relatively-large US Spanish-speaking population, but it's not like Europe where you can take a train, cross borders, and easily be in a different language area the same day. As a student taking French in California, the only way I had to practice was to watch French films (might have been easier had I lived in Louisiana or northern New England where there actually are native French speakers). My high schools were both Catholic so we had religious classes all four years. I think that would be highly unusual in US state-run schools due to the First Amendment but I have heard of schools offering classes with a more anthropological rather than theological study of religion. History is standard and generally three to four years. Instruction is highly influenced by the Advanced Placement (AP) exams, which are subject-specific baccalaureate exams that often give college credit to students who score highly enough. A typical high school curriculum might be World History in year 1, European History in year 2, and American History in year 3 (all of which have AP exams associated with them), with other social science classes like government or economics in year 4. World History in US schools is quick and doesn't really do justice to anyone, particularly Africa or Asia, but the Roman Empire and the UK are probably the least-poorly covered, though even then we're talking only a rough understanding of broad arcs of history. We Americans would be in big trouble if we had a gun to our heads to explain, say, the Wars of the Roses. We mercifully don't have a string of dynastic successions to memorize. Forty-five presidents under a single written Constitution over the last 230 years with no coups makes American History, if not "simple", then relatively straight-forward. Probably the most conceptually complex part is understanding the legal and philosophical underpinnings of the American Revolution (the political writings of people like Locke, Rousseau, Madison, and, well, Hamilton (natch)). But I don't think any episode in our history can match the English Civil Wars or the French Revolution for sheer complexity.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 14:08:55 GMT
We did stop off at Tudors'n'Stuarts when I was a kid, and I believe there might be a pirate module now?
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