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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 11:32:20 GMT
]I guess then what irks me is the idea that it's somehow such a crime to make a mistake. Especially in an informal environment. As I think Ryan said above, I cringe a bit occasionally but I don't spend time dwelling on it nor would I dream of making a point of it either publically or privately. Of course in an education or professional environment it would be worth bringing up, I just don't think this is the kind of environment where it's necessary. We may have been talking about different things. I wasn't just referring to the forum, but more to the general idea that it's OK to get things wrong as if "wrong" is some sort of "alternative right". If someone makes a typo in an online post, or goes back and rewrites part of a sentence and fails to adjust every part of it to match, then that's not an issue for me: I like people to make a bit of an attempt to consider the reader but not to the extent that they spend twice as long proofreading as they did typing. But sometimes it's clear that people simply don't know the fundamentals of their own language. I've seen press releases where someone has used the wrong one out of "there", "they're" and "their". That's not a typo. It's because they simply haven't the foggiest notion of which to use. That shouldn't happen. Yes, this is true. But English is a funny language, and there are many things that people *think* are rules that are more like guidelines. Some are completely arbitrary inventions of 16th century grammarians who were trying to standardise English based on Latin. (And heh, 'standardise' has been underlined by the American browser spell checker as wrong.....)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:32:56 GMT
I fear my point has been missed here - it's not that showing consideration for how our language is used makes you unpleasant to be around, it's that if I choose to make other people feel bad about it even if it's something they find difficult, then I would (absolutely rightly) be the bad guy. I don't know if you've read the rest of the thread, but there are people here who don't have your natural command of how words and phrases and punctuation "should" be, and I didn't realise until today just how terrible they feel when other people insist on drawing attention to it. As long as we understand what each other means, I'd rather have the most grammatically nightmarish conversation in the world than make someone feel uncomfortable even being here. If we were only talking about language, that would be one thing, but we are talking about real people feeling like crap (as in poop) here, and THAT is what I am not comfortable with. Good for you if you don't care, but I do, and hopefully I'm not the only one.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:36:57 GMT
Is it me or is the 'respect for our language' starting to sound a bit 'make Britain great again' or 'won't somebody PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN'
Seriously though, I personally don't understand why the odd error is such an affront to your sensibilities. Or why making mistakes makes people a terrible individual in the eyes of some here. It's a sad state of affairs to know that we're all being judged by our grammar and spelling by some.
And as Kathryn says (and any good editor/English teacher/sensible person) will tell you English is an unwieldy language and many so called 'rules' are in fact false. But please don't let that get in the way of feeling slightly superior to someone for a moment.
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 11:38:03 GMT
DEFINITELY. This is the only spelling of the word. Not 'definately', 'defanately', 'defiantly' or anything else for that matter. Defiantly means something else entirely! And this is why spelling and grammar are important - to make your meaning clear. Otherwise people misunderstand you. They may even get offended by something you didn't actually mean to say - and if you don't know why they've misunderstood you it's very hard indeed to clear up the misunderstanding, because you'll be knee-deep in an argument about it before you know it. Anything else - missing apostrophes, 'could of', 'casted' (that one is my bugbear!) may be annoying to some but is ultimately not important.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:38:56 GMT
Suffice to say, reading a couple of these comments over the pages, it makes me not want to attend any future meet ups. If you don't like the way I type, god help me when you meet me and I talk and make a mistake!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:39:50 GMT
This post makes me so fustrated, you are not taking into consideration other peoples reasons for struggling with language. The way that reads is pretty much "people are uneducated". Yes, a person who doesn't know the meaning of the word "of" is uneducated in that respect.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:40:25 GMT
I quite like it when people say "defiantly" instead of "definitely". It may not be what they mean, but it takes their conviction level from the flat 100% of "definitely" to an excellent 150% of "not only is it the case, but I will say so even if people disagree". In some cases it ends up being far more appropriate than "definitely" ever could have been.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:45:11 GMT
This post makes me so fustrated, you are not taking into consideration other peoples reasons for struggling with language. The way that reads is pretty much "people are uneducated". Yes, a person who doesn't know the meaning of the word "of" is uneducated in that respect. Yeah, you've really misunderstood some of the points here. Someone who types "should of" doesn't automatically not know what "of" means and it's pretty condescending to imply that. Dyslexia, to take one example of a learning difficulty, isn't just someone not trying hard or wallowing in wilful ignorance, it is someone whose brain literally will not make that connection. You can be educated out the wazoo and still have dyslexia, I know for a FACT we have at least one person here who fits that description. It doesn't mean you're uneducated. It doesn't mean you're unwilling to learn. It doesn't mean you're stupid. God it must be EXHAUSTING having dyslexia, with people wilfully misunderstanding how it affects your life and telling you that you would be alright if you just tried a little harder.
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 11:45:21 GMT
I quite like it when people say "defiantly" instead of "definitely". It may not be what they mean, but it takes their conviction level from the flat 100% of "definitely" to an excellent 150% of "not only is it the case, but I will say so even if people disagree". In some cases it ends up being far more appropriate than "definitely" ever could have been. Ah, but that may not be the case at all, Baemax. They may think something is definitely true, but upon being presented with evidence to the contrary, change their mind. Whereas if they defiantly think it's true, they wouldn't change their mind. So it's important for the writer to know that defiantly implies something quite different to definitely to the reader.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:48:25 GMT
I did wonder how long it would take you to chime in, Baemax, as you are never far away from a spat, usually telling most of us we are all wrong, and you are all right. Fear not that I have missed your point; I understand you perfectly. You incorrectly assume that I have a natural command of language; I will refrain from boring you with my life story, but suffice it to say you are wrong. (Not something you like to be...) Like many others, I have tried to understand errors I have made (in language and in all areas of my life) and tried to correct them. It's never too late. You never know, some posters might have learnt a thing or two about English grammar this morning. And they might have done so quietly, gratefully even, in the background, without making a big fuss, claiming they've been picked on, laughed at and made to feel like crap. You and the likes might have done that for them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:51:55 GMT
I haven't learned alot about the English language this morning. But I have learnt a few things about some of the people on this board, and that we clearly would not get along if we met in public.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:52:50 GMT
DEFINITELY. This is the only spelling of the word. Not 'definately', 'defanately', 'defiantly' or anything else for that matter. Defiantly means something else entirely! And this is why spelling and grammar are important - to make your meaning clear. Otherwise people misunderstand you. They may even get offended by something you didn't actually mean to say - and if you don't know why they've misunderstood you it's very hard indeed to clear up the misunderstanding, because you'll be knee-deep in an argument about it before you know it. Anything else - missing apostrophes, 'could of', 'casted' (that one is my bugbear!) may be annoying to some but is ultimately not important. Correct, Kathryn! You got it! Not important to you, but it clearly is to others... (Please refer to the start of the thread. 14 'likes' in 7 hours is a bit of a record for this board, i reckon!)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 11:56:23 GMT
I'm just going to chime in and say, that as the first poster to reference the term "Nazi" I'm in no way condoning the use of the word - in fact my post was condemning the casual use of the word in the context of a school teacher being picky about letter formation.
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1,064 posts
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Post by bellboard27 on Mar 7, 2017 11:57:11 GMT
life is one big typo anyway. Only because God's autocorrect stopped working.
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 12:05:18 GMT
Defiantly means something else entirely! And this is why spelling and grammar are important - to make your meaning clear. Otherwise people misunderstand you. They may even get offended by something you didn't actually mean to say - and if you don't know why they've misunderstood you it's very hard indeed to clear up the misunderstanding, because you'll be knee-deep in an argument about it before you know it. Anything else - missing apostrophes, 'could of', 'casted' (that one is my bugbear!) may be annoying to some but is ultimately not important. Correct, Kathryn! You got it! Not important to you, but it clearly is to others... (Please refer to the start of the thread. 14 'likes' in 7 hours is a bit of a record for this board, i reckon!) If it doesn't stop you understanding what is meant it is ultimately not that important. It would be nice if people learnt to write in ways which did not annoy some readers, but given that this is a free forum - no one is paying to read posts - and you can easily put the posters who annoy you on ignore if it bothers you that much, it's really not worth kicking up a huge fuss over. You are not going to persuade people to change how they habitually write on a forum by berating them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 12:06:13 GMT
Bloody hell!
who gives a flying pig style if people want to conform or not to the English language?! U do realise u are typing on a machine lecturing people u will never meet on a public forum about their grammar/spelling?! I'm assuming it's done in some sort of way to make people feel sh*t about themselves and contribute less to this very vibrant place.
Well done, u just won at the internet!
If you don't like which order letters are put, why don't u go and moan at a dictionary, it's prob the only thing that cares
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 12:07:10 GMT
I haven't learned alot about the English language this morning. But I have learnt a few things about some of the people on this board, and that we clearly would not get along if we met in public. I hope that part of that learning also includes that people are different, and that just because grammar may not be as important to you doesn't mean that it isn't important to others, or that it isn't allowed to be important to others. No-one is wrong for wishing that people would use correct grammar, and no-one is wrong for posting on a thread that they find incorrect grammar irritating. That's an opinion that people are entitled to as much as those who think it doesn't matter are entitled to think that. To me this thread is starting to become a place to vilify those who do have a concern about the use of the English language, and make us feel bad about voicing our opinions in that regard. Perhaps that wasn't the intention just as it wasn't my intention in posting to make anyone else feel inferior, but a lot of the posts are starting to come across that way. That's why I said that the whole point is that there is a need to find a middle ground - no one "camp" (because frankly this does feel like people dividing into two camps now) is more entitled to their view prevailing than the other. There's a difference between correcting every single instance of incorrect grammar (which would be ridiculous), and simply asking people to give a bit more thought to what they post so that as a matter of standard English grammar it makes sense, particularly in the context of the couple of grammar points that have been pointed out on this thread and are therefore now well known to everyone here. I don't think that having that very slight extra consideration is a lot to ask.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 12:08:15 GMT
I agree with kathryn, it is better to just let people type what they want and accept it and of you dom't like it, ignore it. Because all this thread is achieving thus far is making those who may struggle with language feel like sh*t. And that isn't fair, at all.
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Post by Kim_Bahorel on Mar 7, 2017 12:08:19 GMT
DEFINITELY. This is the only spelling of the word. Not 'definately', 'defanately', 'defiantly' or anything else for that matter. I am 33 years old I still have no idea how to spell that word. Even when I google it I look at it and think that's not how sounds in my head. I've had to remember its synonyms to look up the correct spelling. Someone mentioned you're & your. It takes me a good 30 seconds to figure out which one I need to use. I don't know about anyone else. But actually when you say about I said out loud a few time I pronounce it "definately" not "definitely". I get sometimes the words definite & defiant muddled up I think because the way I'm pronouncing it.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 12:12:27 GMT
DEFINITELY. This is the only spelling of the word. Not 'definately', 'defanately', 'defiantly' or anything else for that matter. I am 33 years old I still have no idea how to spell that word. Even when I google it I look at it and think that's not how sounds in my head. I've had to remember its synonyms to look up the correct spelling. Someone mentioned you're & your. It takes me a good 30 seconds to figure out which one I need to use. I don't know about anyone else. But actually when you say about I said out loud a few time I pronounce it "definately" not "definitely". I get sometimes the words definite & defiant muddled up I think because the way I'm pronouncing it. Geeky fact - this is actually how philologists work out how pronunciation of languages changes over time. They look at the misspellings of written words - since people tend to misspell words how they pronounce them.
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223 posts
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Post by Kim_Bahorel on Mar 7, 2017 12:12:59 GMT
Blimey it took me so long to write that the defiant thing already was posted.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 12:13:09 GMT
Yes, a person who doesn't know the meaning of the word "of" is uneducated in that respect. Yeah, you've really misunderstood some of the points here. Someone who types "should of" doesn't automatically not know what "of" means and it's pretty condescending to imply that. Dyslexia, to take one example of a learning difficulty, isn't just someone not trying hard or wallowing in wilful ignorance, it is someone whose brain literally will not make that connection. You can be educated out the wazoo and still have dyslexia, I know for a FACT we have at least one person here who fits that description. It doesn't mean you're uneducated. It doesn't mean you're unwilling to learn. It doesn't mean you're stupid. God it must be EXHAUSTING having dyslexia, with people wilfully misunderstanding how it affects your life and telling you that you would be alright if you just tried a little harder. *waves* yes, yes it is. This is starting to feel like every essay I ever handed in- if I just 'educated' myself or 'spent more time' trying to learn these things I'd be fine.
No as what I'm now calling 'Carpgate' indicates I physically CANNOT SEE the 'right' way things are to be written and/or my brain (or my 'Brian' as it often is) mixes it up into a hot mess and things end up arse backwards. So in a colloquial setting I tend to give my old head a break and think 'they get the gist' naively believing that was good enough.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 12:15:04 GMT
I haven't learned alot about the English language this morning. But I have learnt a few things about some of the people on this board, and that we clearly would not get along if we met in public. I hope that part of that learning also includes that people are different, and that just because grammar may not be as important to you doesn't mean that it isn't important to others, or that it isn't allowed to be important to others. No-one is wrong for wishing that people would use correct grammar, and no-one is wrong for posting on a thread that they find incorrect grammar irritating. That's an opinion that people are entitled to as much as those who think it doesn't matter are entitled to think that. To me this thread is starting to become a place to vilify those who do have a concern about the use of the English language, and make us feel bad about voicing our opinions in that regard. Perhaps that wasn't the intention just as it wasn't my intention in posting to make anyone else feel inferior, but a lot of the posts are starting to come across that way. That's why I said that the whole point is that there is a need to find a middle ground - no one "camp" (because frankly this does feel like people dividing into two camps now) is more entitled to their view prevailing than the other. There's a difference between correcting every single instance of incorrect grammar (which would be ridiculous), and simply asking people to give a bit more thought to what they post so that as a matter of standard English grammar it makes sense, particularly in the context of the couple of grammar points that have been pointed out on this thread and are therefore now well known to everyone here. I don't think that having that very slight extra consideration is a lot to ask. I am not judging anyone for saying their opinion, its a discussion board. But, as an example, if we must go there, I am someone who struggles alot with language. I passed English exams and everything but I stumble over my words, have a slight stutter and talk too fast, to a point where some of my friends have to tell me to just calm down or slow down. And I do struggle with memory occasionally and what the right words are to use. Thats not my fault, it is part of some other issues I won't go into publically here. So hearing that people don't like how some people speak on here, yeah it makes me self-consious, and I wouldn't feel comfortable meeting up with someone who I know from the get-go would have a problem with it. And that is how this whole thread comes across to me, and I'm sure to others as well.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 12:18:45 GMT
Well, you've asked people to 'give a bit more thought', and you've discovered that it has caused a huge discussion about English language usage and offended some people. You've been perceived as lacking in consideration yourself. So, how has that worked out for you? Because I'm pretty sure it's not going to stop people using 'could of'. Edit: Now, why didn't that quote work?!! Gaaaah!
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Post by lynette on Mar 7, 2017 12:20:14 GMT
Goodness me. A tsunami of posts on grammar. I dunno, I'm lucky I s'pose. Never had a problem with readin 'n writin. Street English is easy because if you miss out words or get tenses wrong it is still easy to understand. But proper grammatical English is difficult. And of course we still have dialects and regional variations and how people speak. (as other languages have ) Historic reasoning behind grammar, for example apostrophes, isn't taught nowadays so the rules have no logic and the spoken word dominates. So depends on what society wants. If you want to be a literary author, get it right. If you want to frame laws be accurate. If you can communicate what you want to say to other people you are doing ok. So many kids can't.
Tip for definitely: the middle is finite.
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