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Post by Michael on Mar 7, 2017 12:22:15 GMT
I can't think of a single example where 'should of' can be used. You should of course know that there is at least one example Oddly enough, I've only ever seen native speaker make this mistake, and only ever using "of" instead of "(ha)'ve", never the other way round. But, as a non-native speaker, who am I to blame you, but if this were a German forum, I'd be so part of the "mind your grammar" side. There are similar mistakes in German that grate on me, e.g. "das" vs. "dass" (one is an article, the other a conjunction). So easy, and yet such a common mistake.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 12:22:47 GMT
We may have been talking about different things. I wasn't just referring to the forum, but more to the general idea that it's OK to get things wrong as if "wrong" is some sort of "alternative right". If someone makes a typo in an online post, or goes back and rewrites part of a sentence and fails to adjust every part of it to match, then that's not an issue for me: I like people to make a bit of an attempt to consider the reader but not to the extent that they spend twice as long proofreading as they did typing. But sometimes it's clear that people simply don't know the fundamentals of their own language. I've seen press releases where someone has used the wrong one out of "there", "they're" and "their". That's not a typo. It's because they simply haven't the foggiest notion of which to use. That shouldn't happen. This post makes me so fustrated, you are not taking into consideration other peoples reasons for struggling with language. The way that reads is pretty much "people are uneducated". That's completely wrong. I'm fully aware that there are many reasons for struggling with language. I'm also aware that you can't excuse everything as "struggling with language". It's not as if the meaning of "they're" is a secret only disclosed to people studying A-level English and above. If someone's writing a press release and they're not sure which one to use then they should look it up, not say "screw it, my company's reputation isn't worth a minute of my time". You can't call something a struggle if you're not making any effort.
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223 posts
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Post by Kim_Bahorel on Mar 7, 2017 12:31:02 GMT
Does anyone have any other pet peeves that aren't grammer or spelling related though?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 12:32:29 GMT
..... it's a cast recording, not a soundtrack.....
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 12:33:26 GMT
This post makes me so fustrated, you are not taking into consideration other peoples reasons for struggling with language. The way that reads is pretty much "people are uneducated". That's completely wrong. I'm fully aware that there are many reasons for struggling with language. I'm also aware that you can't excuse everything as "struggling with language". It's not as if the meaning of "they're" is a secret only disclosed to people studying A-level English and above. If someone's writing a press release and they're not sure which one to use then they should look it up, not say "screw it, my company's reputation isn't worth a minute of my time". You can't call something a struggle if you're not making any effort. You know, people do sometimes make mistakes not because they don't know what is the right version, but because, well, it's a mistake. Even I've been known to have a brain-fart and use the wrong they're/their/there, and I have a degree in English Lit and work in publishing!! People make all sorts of silly mistakes that they just don't notice at the time - that's why proof readers exist. Sometimes we publish articles that have been checked by 3 authors, a freelance proof reader and an editor, and mistakes still slip through. Blimey, I've even had to correct a misspelling of an author's own name recently - after the article had published! In fact I'd say that the stupider the mistake is, the less likely you are to catch it in advance. I could tell you about some proper howlers! It's sod's law, innit.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Mar 7, 2017 12:33:52 GMT
Does anyone have any other pet peeves that aren't grammer or spelling related though? Pedantry?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 12:34:32 GMT
"Half time" ...it's an interval, unless you're at the Football!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 12:36:15 GMT
If theatres don't want us to eat anything smelly or noisy, then they should stop letting people take wine or drinks with ice-cubes into the auditorium. And let's not get started on theatres that sell crisps and sweets in crinkly bags...
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Post by bellboard27 on Mar 7, 2017 12:38:04 GMT
"Half time" ...it's an interval, unless you're at the Football! Unless it's a pause. Pauses are designed to lull the unsuspecting audience member into thinking they have time for a trip to the loo, only to be told by FOH to sit back down and cross their legs for the next act.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 12:40:47 GMT
Slightly better than when FOH don't tell them to sit back down and then they have to fight their way back into their seats after the act has recommenced!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 12:53:26 GMT
Well, you've asked people to 'give a bit more thought', and you've discovered that it has caused a huge discussion about English language usage and offended some people. You've been perceived as lacking in consideration yourself. So, how has that worked out for you? Because I'm pretty sure it's not going to stop people using 'could of'. Edit: Now, why didn't that quote work?!! Gaaaah! To start, my post wasn't the initial one in this thread that sparked the discussion - the number of likes for that initial post and the number of responses agreeing with it make it pretty evident that it's not one person against the rest of the forum here. Your tone is now getting aggressive and patronising, which I'm afraid to me doesn't help your cause. I am trying to find a middle ground here that isn't going to offend anyone disproportionately, because whether you intend to or not you are offending those of us who dare to disagree with you as much as you seem to have been offended by some of the posts commenting that some people find incorrect grammar irritating. I'm starting to feel as if some of those who think there is no need to be concerned at all about grammar (which is their right to think) are trying to push contrary opinions into the ground by sheer force and aggression. That is as much lacking in consideration as any comment about poor grammar which doesn't take into account disabilities or linguistic backgrounds (which if you care to look back at my posting history in this thread I have specifically taken note of). No-one is right or wrong here, everyone is entitled to think what they please about their grammar and others', particularly on a public forum such as this where there will be differences in expression and people are free to post what they wish, and I think some people need to remember that. It doesn't seem to me to be productive to say any more on this, as clearly there is little appetite for finding a middle ground, which is a shame.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 13:05:07 GMT
I can't think of a single example where 'should of' can be used. You should of course know that there is at least one example Oddly enough, I've only ever seen native speaker make this mistake, and only ever using "of" instead of "(ha)'ve", never the other way round. But, as a non-native speaker, who am I to blame you, but if this were a German forum, I'd be so part of the "mind your grammar" side. There are similar mistakes in German that grate on me, e.g. "das" vs. "dass" (one is an article, the other a conjunction). So easy, and yet such a common mistake. Ah! Now we're on to parethesis...! I had thought of the 'of course' exception after should/would/could but- strictly speaking- the 'of course' should be separated in parethesis using the commas. So it would read, "You should, of course, know..." I would not have guessed you were a non-native speaker. Your command of English is top-notch!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 13:22:18 GMT
You know, people do sometimes make mistakes not because they don't know what is the right version, but because, well, it's a mistake. That would be why I used the example of a press release, where mistakes matter, rather than a post-it note, where they don't. I want to make it clear that I'm not referring to the sort of mistakes that everyone makes, where their concentration slips for a moment and they type the wrong thing. I do that all the time, and although I catch most of them a few slip through. I'm not talking about issues like dyslexia, where someone struggles with certain aspects of writing. I'm not talking about English as a foreign language. I'm talking about the sort of repeated errors that make it clear that someone simply doesn't care whether they're right or wrong. People keep attacking what I'm saying as if I'm claiming that every error is inexcusable. I've never claimed that. What I'm railing against is the claim that every error must be excused: that if you don't know when to use "their" and when to use "there" then that's absolutely fine and you shouldn't be expected to know which is which. Nobody can avoid every mistake, but we should at least try.
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223 posts
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Post by Kim_Bahorel on Mar 7, 2017 13:33:37 GMT
If theatres don't want us to eat anything smelly or noisy, then they should stop letting people take wine or drinks with ice-cubes into the auditorium. And let's not get started on theatres that sell crisps and sweets in crinkly bags... I posted up before about it. I sat next to a rather annoying man at a musical who kept reponding to everything from the start with a cheer or yelp. He had a glass with ice in. Proceeded to chew on this ice. I think one must have gone down the wrong way as at one point he started to choke. Which to be honest, I chuckled at. He still carried on chewing the ice though. Queen's theatre has very noisy bottles which unless I'm in a rush to get there from work always buy bottle of water before hand. I have had to buy it before but I make sure I open the bottle before the show starts. Then if I need water I open it during the claps.
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Post by Kim_Bahorel on Mar 7, 2017 13:44:04 GMT
Speaking of intervals did anyone ever see Oresteia at Trafalgar Studios? I know it was the aesthetic of the show but all intervals should be like that. Timed with the clock ticking down. When it hits zero the next act starts.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 13:51:33 GMT
Two more-
A LOT not 'alot'
and SEPARATE not 'seperate'
(I think the caring you mention, The Matthew, is key here... Just think what sh*te we'd all have to watch in the theatre if the director didn't care, the actor didn't care, the sound guy didn't care, the set designer didn't care... they just kept making the same old mistakes they always do. And nothing improved. Ever.)
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Post by bellboard27 on Mar 7, 2017 13:53:15 GMT
Two more- A LOT not 'alot' and SEPARATE not 'seperate' (I think the caring you mention, The Matthew, is key here... Just think what sh*te we'd all have to watch in the theatre if the director didn't care, the actor didn't care, the sound guy didn't care, the set designer didn't care... they just kept making the same old mistakes they always do. And nothing improved. Ever.) I think I've been to that show.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 13:56:03 GMT
Two more- A LOT not 'alot' and SEPARATE not 'seperate' (I think the caring you mention, The Matthew, is key here... Just think what sh*te we'd all have to watch in the theatre if the director didn't care, the actor didn't care, the sound guy didn't care, the set designer didn't care... they just kept making the same old mistakes they always do. And nothing improved. Ever.) I think I've been to that show. Oh so have I, believe me! But it didn't half piss me off, and I bet it did you too! And that's why I'm so glad that others don't have the same approach... They care!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 14:02:48 GMT
Speaking of intervals did anyone ever see Oresteia at Trafalgar Studios? I know it was the aesthetic of the show but all intervals should be like that. Timed with the clock ticking down. When it hits zero the next act starts. It was impressive how smoothly it worked as well, I don't remember any post-interval latecomers when I saw it.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 7, 2017 14:07:04 GMT
Well, you've asked people to 'give a bit more thought', and you've discovered that it has caused a huge discussion about English language usage and offended some people. You've been perceived as lacking in consideration yourself. So, how has that worked out for you? Because I'm pretty sure it's not going to stop people using 'could of'. Edit: Now, why didn't that quote work?!! Gaaaah! Your tone is now getting aggressive and patronising, which I'm afraid to me doesn't help your cause. I am trying to find a middle ground here that isn't going to offend anyone disproportionately, because whether you intend to or not you are offending those of us who dare to disagree with you as much as you seem to have been offended by some of the posts commenting that some people find incorrect grammar irritating. I'm starting to feel as if some of those who think there is no need to be concerned at all about grammar (which is their right to think) are trying to push contrary opinions into the ground by sheer force and aggression. That is as much lacking in consideration as any comment about poor grammar which doesn't take into account disabilities or linguistic backgrounds (which if you care to look back at my posting history in this thread I have specifically taken note of). No-one is right or wrong here, everyone is entitled to think what they please about their grammar and others', particularly on a public forum such as this where there will be differences in expression and people are free to post what they wish, and I think some people need to remember that. It doesn't seem to me to be productive to say any more on this, as clearly there is little appetite for finding a middle ground, which is a shame. Funnily enough, I'm not the slightest bit offended, though I understand why some people are. And obviously, I'm very far from thinking there's no need to be concerned at all about grammar! But this whole thread is aimed at getting people to change how they write on the forum, in order to not annoy other people. It's not an approach that seems to have worked. Which is unsurprising, really - I mean, we indulge far more annoying posting habits that the odd grammatical error! Live and let live - and if you really can't bear someone, put them on ignore - seems to me the only possible 'middle ground' we can reach.
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Post by Kim_Bahorel on Mar 7, 2017 14:11:26 GMT
Speaking of intervals did anyone ever see Oresteia at Trafalgar Studios? I know it was the aesthetic of the show but all intervals should be like that. Timed with the clock ticking down. When it hits zero the next act starts. It was impressive how smoothly it worked as well, I don't remember any post-interval latecomers when I saw it. No latecomers but a few who just hung around to the last second to sit or didn't take notice of the usher telling them when it was going to start again. Ending in a some what blind panic as the theatre went suddenly dark. It was brilliant to watch to be honest.
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Post by Jon on Mar 7, 2017 14:48:01 GMT
I'm mixed on the subject because on the one hand, grammar errors and text speak do annoy me at times but on the hand I use things like IMO and TBH which you wouldn't use in an email or a letter but it's fine on a text message or forum.
My pet peeve is overuse of GIFs and memes which is rare on here but I've seen it on other forums
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Post by Phantom of London on Mar 7, 2017 15:06:39 GMT
The "should have should of" really doesn't bother me. I'm from south east London everyone says should of. They might not write it like that but they say it. On the subject of grammer itself, I find it difficult, I find it difficult to read and how to structure sentances. For me those little things just don't bother me. The same goes with "gotten" I have written that many times. We say it like that in SE London. Guess what I am also from SE London, we type as we speak. Stuck because of a bomb alert, no trains from London Bridge, should of been home by now.
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Post by Phantom of London on Mar 7, 2017 15:12:27 GMT
As someone with dyslexia, it really harks of being back in the playground and being pointed at and mocked for making mistakes. There are some mistakes that are down to things like dyslexia and some that are down to not having English as a first language, but the sort of mistakes that have legitimate causes tend to follow patterns. Russians sometimes omit articles where English requires them, for example, and some languages that are heavy in gender inflection result in people using "he" and "she" where a native English speaker would use "it". The mistakes being criticised here aren't those sorts of mistakes. It's obviously poor form to pick on people who are struggling with learning a new language or who have dyslexia, but we shouldn't go too far the other way and adopt an attitude of "being wrong is just as good as being right". The sort of mistakes we're talking about aren't the sort of mistakes that require higher education. This is basic stuff: the language equivalent of knowing how to add 5 to 7. For example, no native speaker of English should struggle with apostrophes and the letter S because the rules to cover the overwhelming majority of cases can be learnt by anyone in a minute: Possessives: Add 's for singulars and for plurals not already ending in -s. Plurals ending in -s add ' after the s. cat => cat's, woman => woman's, cats => cats', women => women's Possessive exceptions: Hers, its, theirs and so on: you wouldn't write hi's so don't use an apostrophe in the others.
Contractions: something + is => -'s. This includes it is => it's.
Plurals: Don't use an apostrophe. Extremely rare exception: Phrases like "dotting the i's and crossing the t's", where the apostrophe serves as a break to avoid creating the word "is".That shouldn't be a challenge for anywhere near as many people who appear to find it a challenge. That fits in superbly with your narcissistic superiority. Perhaps the next lesson should be 'capitals'. The answer is clearly 14.
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Post by 49thand8th on Mar 7, 2017 15:30:17 GMT
Thank goodness someone has raised the 'could of' thing... This has bugged me for ages but I thought if I brought it up it would go down like a lead balloon. Champagne for ggersten! I did bring it up in a thread once and was thoroughly told off for doing so! It's just basic grammatical rules, so I don't think it's being too pedantic to point it out if it's something that's been happening repeatedly and the phrase was being specifically used to make a point (I hate the use of the word Nazi so won't use that phrase). What irks me equally is those who don't know when to use your/you're, and people who put apostrophes in the wrong place (or fail to use them entirely!). I apologise if that makes me seem harsh, but it honestly does spoil my enjoyment of the forum a bit to read posts with basic incorrect grammar that aren't obviously typos or written by those for whom English is not their first language. I don't think it's asking a lot, just for people to be aware of a couple of very common grammatical mistakes that do make a difference. And I say that as someone whose best friend is dyslexic, so I'm aware of the difficulties that can cause, but she always tries to use the correct phrasing and more often than not is successful. I understand that it might spoil some people's enjoyment of the forum to have to think a bit more about grammar, but it's not a one-way street - just as there will be people who find it difficult, there will also be people who find having to read repeated basic grammar errors difficult, so I think a balance needs to be found. I agree with you. What I'm coming from is: I'm a copy editor. I make my living pointing out where other people falter in this realm of their lives. So, online discussion is a mixed bag for me: It's a relief not to care, but it's also frustrating. That said, I can't and won't judge people's online communications the same way I do at work. I'd never get through the day if that happened. However, once you've been around, it's not hard to tell when someone really does have trouble with the language versus when they're just being lazy. And if you're being lazy, why not take the time to craft something that obviously shows you've put more thought into it than just trying to write while exiting the train or while you're in bed half asleep?
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