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Post by viserys on Dec 20, 2016 7:48:43 GMT
This controversy got me wondering, are opera companies these days obliged to cast Chinese/Japanese singers when they perform Turandot or Madame Butterfly? I don't follow opera at all so have no idea to what extent they are subject to the same pressures as the theatre world. Nope. I saw Turandot in Liege in October and there wasn't a single Asian singer among the leads. Tiziana Caruso (Italian) was Turandot and José Cura (Argentinian I think?) was Calaf. I can't remember the names of the cast members when I last saw Madama Butterfly in Cologne a few years ago, but Cho-Cho San was definitely white too. On the other hand I saw a Korean Mimi in La Boheme years ago. Her Asian appearance didn't bother me at all, it was more her rotund form that didn't really work for someone supposedly dying of tuberculosis. Come to think of it, I also saw a Korean lead guy in Rigoletto.
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Post by bee on Dec 20, 2016 8:13:32 GMT
This controversy got me wondering, are opera companies these days obliged to cast Chinese/Japanese singers when they perform Turandot or Madame Butterfly? I don't follow opera at all so have no idea to what extent they are subject to the same pressures as the theatre world. Nope. I saw Turandot in Liege in October and there wasn't a single Asian singer among the leads. Tiziana Caruso (Italian) was Turandot and José Cura (Argentinian I think?) was Calaf. I can't remember the names of the cast members when I last saw Madama Butterfly in Cologne a few years ago, but Cho-Cho San was definitely white too. On the other hand I saw a Korean Mimi in La Boheme years ago. Her Asian appearance didn't bother me at all, it was more her rotund form that didn't really work for someone supposedly dying of tuberculosis. Come to think of it, I also saw a Korean lead guy in Rigoletto. Yeah I thought that might be the case, certainly the opera lovers I know very much want to see the best singers no matter what colour (or shape!) they are. This whole thing makes me very uneasy. If you look at the Print Room's website they hardly seem like the bastion of old school racism they're being made out to be - a musical theatre work about Srebenica, a concert featuring lyrics taken from the diaries of women with mental illness, a play about Karen Blixen, it seems like their heart is in the right place to me. I don't think they're a suitable victim for the Offended Police to be setting the dogs on. I didn't particularly fancy this play but I think I'll make a point of going now to show a bit of solidarity.
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Post by Snciole on Dec 20, 2016 8:33:09 GMT
I've been poking my nose into this on Twitter because I doubt Barker wrote this as something that should only be cast with white, English actors and claiming that it is an English story set in China (with Chinese characters) was badly worded and suggested that The Print Room do not think East Asian actors are British/English. The statement has made a volatile situation even worse I think I am surprised because this is exactly the sort of venue that should be saying there are some great actors of East Asian descent, let's do a version with them. I can see why actors are angry, there have been some great East Asian modern plays recently that have sold well and been critically acclaimed.
I suspect The Print Room are just delighted to get such high profile casting like William Chubb and Stella Gonet and I think the question has to be asked whether the casting was genuinely open to all and if these were the best actors available for the role. I don't think anyone should be obliged to employ anyone and I disagree with the protest but as I have said here there are many roles for caucasian actors, if black and Asian actors are truly to break the glass ceiling they need to be given the initial leg up in colour blind casting and theatres need to put on more diverse modern works.
I am mixed race and I honestly suspect the lack of theatre attendance amongst BME is not only culture (I was never taken to the theatre as a child and I doubt my mum will ever go) but a feeling they will be unwelcome and judged. The Print Room's (in Notting Hill!) casting is not helping that perception.
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Post by Snciole on Dec 20, 2016 8:44:12 GMT
I hate to be all militant about this sort of thing but these small steps that exclude people are exactly how the likes of Trump et al get into power. If you alienate a group of people by saying "This is an English play so we have cast white actors" and as a non-white, I am going to question my Englishness and it makes (some) white people question my Englishness too.
Now imagine that over 10, 20, 30 years etc. I am not saying The Print Room are racist or even that is a racist statement but you can see why people are offended, especially wishy-washy-arty-farty liberals.
For example, The Print Room could argue that there weren't enough experienced East Asian actors like Chubb and Gonet but again why aren't there? Because when Gonet and Chubb were starting out there weren't the opportunities for East Asian actors to be in the roles were Gonet and Chubb made their name and speaking to one actress on Twitter she was one of 5 East Asian actors that graduated from Drama School in the 1980s.
Racism isn't immediate name calling or discrimination, for me, it is about generations being held back and their lack of achievement being justification for why they shouldn't be given rights and shouldn't be treated as equals.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 8:51:41 GMT
It seems to me that the Print Room has honestly and clearly explained the situation in this case but that the Twitterati have chosen to interpret the explanation as dishonest spin and to persist in shrieking their agenda and erroneously using this production as their example.
I have no respect for the protesters who are here either malicious or ignorant or stupid. They show a complete misrepresntation or ignorance or misunderstanding of this play. Casting of it could have been open to everyone, and almost certainly was, but it isn't a Chinese fable.
As for the general point that more productions could cast actors of East Asian heritage, I agree.
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Post by Snciole on Dec 20, 2016 8:59:45 GMT
Just to add I have compared this The Good Person of Szechwan as I saw a puppet-based production with an all-white cast in Wimbledon (which was great) but stated that I had never seen a Chinese production of this play. I found out that only on two occasions has it been done with East Asian (not a full cast) and that Brect wanted Annamay Wong for it in 1950 but the powers that be stopped him.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 9:08:13 GMT
Just catching up on this and read the Print Room's statement. Can't believe they actually said this ...
Thanks to HG for details of the play. Problem here is that if the ethnicity of the actors is not important, why are they all white? And why does The Print Room say 'English' = 'White', in a statement they had 4 days to come up with?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 9:11:47 GMT
I think (having caught up a bit with this yesterday/overnight) that The Print Room could have made an honest mistake, but now that I've had chance to read more about the piece it seems ridiculous to me that anyone would consider it with all white actors, but it is of course possible to be uneducated in these matters.
Having had a front row seat (being FB friends with the ringleader) to some of the protesters I also agree that they have not all handled themselves very well- throwing around some of the terms above and others I've seen don't do much for showing caring and engaged people in society. (Their point, particularly the East Asian actors themselves speaking out is a valid one, just as ever a vocal minority are diluting the good and reasonable debate with name calling that isn't helping anyone have a real dialogue)
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Post by kathryn on Dec 20, 2016 9:14:30 GMT
I hate to be all militant about this sort of thing but these small steps that exclude people are exactly how the likes of Trump et al get into power. If you alienate a group of people by saying "This is an English play so we have cast white actors" and as a non-white, I am going to question my Englishness and it makes (some) white people question my Englishness too. I have nothing but respect for you Snciole, but this is a misrepresentation of the situation. They did not say they cast white actors because it's an English play, they said it is an English play and casting white actors is therefore not 'yellowface'. It's entirely different - they were specifically accused of yellowface, and I'm sure that interpretation never even crossed their minds - it didn't cross mine!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 9:16:21 GMT
Brecht was a political artist and was, to some extent, writing about China. We could argue about his entitlement to do so, as a cultural outsider. In complete contrast, Barker plays with ideas, emotions and behaviours in rigorously decontextualised constructions. Authenticity in Barker can only be to the text and to his imagination; there is no representation of any real world.
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Post by Snciole on Dec 20, 2016 9:22:57 GMT
I hate to be all militant about this sort of thing but these small steps that exclude people are exactly how the likes of Trump et al get into power. If you alienate a group of people by saying "This is an English play so we have cast white actors" and as a non-white, I am going to question my Englishness and it makes (some) white people question my Englishness too. I have nothing but respect for you Snciole, but this is a misrepresentation of the situation. They did not say they cast white actors because it's an English play, they said it is an English play and casting white actors is therefore not 'yellowface'. It's entirely different - they were specifically accused of yellowface, and I'm sure that interpretation never even crossed their minds - it didn't cross mine! This quote can be interpreted so badly (whether the intent was bad was a different matter) and you can see why people are surprised. "It is, in fact a very ‘English' play and is derived from thoroughly English mores and simply references the mythic and the ancient. It has therefore been cast accordingly."
That I hope you can see why people are even more concerned about the motives behind the casting. I don't think anyone consciously went "Hey, guys! Let's be racist" but there was no consideration at a very sensitive time.
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Post by cherokee on Dec 20, 2016 9:28:54 GMT
I have conflicted views on the issue of the Print Room casting.
If we insist that the cast should all be Chinese actors, does that therefore mean we can only produce Jesus Christ Superstar with an entirely Hebrew/Israeli cast (with a couple of Italians to play Pilate and the Romans)? That Medea and any Greek tragedy must be performed by only those of Mediterranean origin?
Ironically, there are numerous productions of Aladdin going on up and down the country at the moment, but nobody is protesting that these casts on the whole do not feature Chinese performers.
Also, did I miss a meeting? Since when did 'yellow face' get redefined? Like 'black face', it has always meant using make up techniques to transform Caucasian features into those of another ethnicity, in a stereotypical and offensive way. It now means White actors playing Chinese characters because some people say it does?
I'm also a bit suspicious of Andrew Keates' histrionic response to this. The cynic in me can't help wondering if one motivation for his outrage is his forthcoming production "Chinglish" in March which is cast with Asian actors and will undoubtedly benefit from some of this publicity.
Having said that, the Print Room dropped a real clanger equating English with White. Unbelievable that nobody checked that statement and advised them that that would be digging them further into a hole.
My main concern is that we're heading towards a situation where due to activism from minority groups who rightly feel under represented in the Arts, we have strident voices insisting that actors can and should only play parts that equate to their own personal experiences or cultural or gender backgrounds. So only gay actors can play gay parts, only trans actors trans parts, etc.
I think more should be done across the board to increase diversity across the spectrum in the theatre, but it's difficult to do this when drama schools are increasingly the preserves of the white middle classes, and minority ethnicities are under represented. Piling in on one unfortunate show and pillorying them is not entirely helpful.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 9:41:41 GMT
The actors could be of different races but their accents and physicalities shouldn't suggest that they are of another culture because that would confuse the audience who would misread the play. It's actually quite important that the audience doesn't think that the play is about ancient China, so an all-East Asian cast would start with a particular disadvantage!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 9:42:04 GMT
I mean someone else said that some people's motivations (and soundbites) might not be entirely altruistically motivated...
I think at this point though I'm less annoyed by the Print Room's casting than I am their response, because yes the whole White = English thing was not shall we say the most productive response to the criticism.
Going back to the more general point, the opera (and while we're at it ballet) raises and interesting question.
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Post by viserys on Dec 20, 2016 10:02:44 GMT
Brecht was a political artist and was, to some extent, writing about China. We could argue about his entitlement to do so, as a cultural outsider. In complete contrast, Barker plays with ideas, emotions and behaviours in rigorously decontextualised constructions. Authenticity in Barker can only be to the text and to his imagination; there is no representation of any real world. Brecht himself stated in the foreword of the German edition that the play is meant to be a parable and Szechuan stands for "any place in which people exploit people" - it's initial working title was "Die Ware Liebe", which is a hard to translate word play as "Ware" means commodity but in German sounds the same as "wahre" which means true. He seems to have picked Szechuan rather randomly for his setting. I hold a special place of loathing for this play as we did it in school in Germany and my teacher gave me an F for the subsequent written test about it on account of "how I totally hadn't got it". Back then I took it lying down, these days I'd raise a hell of a racket over theatre being open to interpretation, especially since Brecht purposely left it open ended. But we're getting off-topic now, so I'll shut up.
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Post by Snciole on Dec 20, 2016 10:14:07 GMT
The diversity in ballet and opera is, again, about culture and access for the minorities. I was never taken to a ballet or opera but alternatively, I was never told you can't be a ballet dancer or you can't be an opera singer but I would have had no idea how to make that start.
The issue ultimately is money and knowledge. I work for a Music and Drama examinations board and the majority of the students are from private schools, by doing these exams they have an advantage over state school pupils who may not even do GCSE Music and Drama. That means knowledge of what you need to do to get into Guildhall, RADA, Central etc as well as the experience needed.
There are of course BME ballerinas and opera singers but are they based in the UK? Do they want to come here to work? Again there is no obligation to cast anybody so why go to the effort of seeking out a BME singer when it is clear that the audience, on the whole, isn't calling out diversity.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 14:34:19 GMT
I am mixed race and I honestly suspect the lack of theatre attendance amongst BME is not only culture (I was never taken to the theatre as a child and I doubt my mum will ever go So, snciole, how did you "get into" theatre, then? It's a different (if related) discussion that engagement for youngsters/families from Working Class backgrounds is also a problem. I didn't set foot in a theatre until I was 17, and in my very working class school drama was on the curriculum because the government said so but that's about it. Nobody in my family ever went to the theatre as far as I recall.
So interesting parallels and differences in different kinds of sections of society there- I'd be curious to see the overlaps and differences if someone ever researched that.
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Post by bellboard27 on Dec 20, 2016 14:43:44 GMT
I think it interesting that the protesters against the Print Room think east Asian casting is fine for a play set in China, but not white. I asked my next door neighbour who is Chinese what he thought. He said he was not bothered who was cast, but if he did have a problem with someone else playing a Chinese person, it would probably be most likely with someone from Japan (recent history still be very sensitive).
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Post by Snciole on Dec 20, 2016 14:53:24 GMT
I am mixed race and I honestly suspect the lack of theatre attendance amongst BME is not only culture (I was never taken to the theatre as a child and I doubt my mum will ever go So, snciole, how did you "get into" theatre, then? Entry Pass. I was 23 (I had attended some dance , for example) and saw A Woman Killed with Kindness. It was crap but a man fell asleep and was woken by a gun shot and I woken to joy of theatre.
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Post by bellboard27 on Dec 20, 2016 15:28:36 GMT
Brecht was a political artist and was, to some extent, writing about China. We could argue about his entitlement to do so, as a cultural outsider. In complete contrast, Barker plays with ideas, emotions and behaviours in rigorously decontextualised constructions. Authenticity in Barker can only be to the text and to his imagination; there is no representation of any real world. Brecht himself stated in the foreword of the German edition that the play is meant to be a parable and Szechuan stands for "any place in which people exploit people" - it's initial working title was "Die Ware Liebe", which is a hard to translate word play as "Ware" means commodity but in German sounds the same as "wahre" which means true. He seems to have picked Szechuan rather randomly for his setting. I hold a special place of loathing for this play as we did it in school in Germany and my teacher gave me an F for the subsequent written test about it on account of "how I totally hadn't got it". Back then I took it lying down, these days I'd raise a hell of a racket over theatre being open to interpretation, especially since Brecht purposely left it open ended. But we're getting off-topic now, so I'll shut up. No, that's interesting. Could you expand please? How about a 2,000 word essay by the end of Thursday?
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Post by viserys on Dec 20, 2016 15:40:24 GMT
I'd rather listen to Last Christmas on a permanent loop until Boxing Day...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 15:48:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 16:30:37 GMT
I don't believe the Print Room meant to imply that as an 'English' production, it had to be white. It certainly wasn't my reading of the statement - I think the problem is that people are now forensically going over their wording and when you do that, it's perfectly possible to find plenty of meanings that aren't actually there.
I think they simply meant that there isn't necessarily a reason to go screaming about 'yellow face' and accusing creatives of 'being racist' if the play itself can legitimately be read as English. Ergo, you could legitimately cast white actors. That's all.
It's a different argument entirely, but one that certain professional commentators appear to be either wilfully ignoring, or simply not considering. (Yes, Equity, I mean you.)
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Post by Snciole on Dec 20, 2016 16:51:02 GMT
I am assuming entry pass was something I had seen online, it's plus was and remains that it was cheaper than going to the cinema but the dance was teachers. For me, at any level of education, the access to professional or even good amateur productions were non-existent.
I've just been at my work Christmas party (but I ran away to hide in the NT) so apologise for any drunken rant in advance but access is key and whilst theatres are doing a great job at offering concessions to a loy of people I don't think the state education system has the time, money (outside of London, in particular) and resources to take students to theatre and awaken an interest or even contempt for the stage.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 17:44:33 GMT
I got hooked through listening to the radio, mainly. As a teenager, I listened avidly to Kaleidoscope (a reviews-only nightly arts programme now replaced with the more features-based Front Row) and Critics' Forum (a weekly arts review group discussion programme now replaced with Saturday Review). And I listened to very many radio dramas too, and watched tv drama, which were both much closer to theatre then than now.
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