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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 17:00:23 GMT
There's a fair bit of controversy over The Print Room (in Notting Hill, I confess I didn't know of them previously) and their casting of Howard Barker's 'In the Depths' which has cast all white actors in roles written for/about China.
Director Andrew Keates has appointed himself leader of a protest on social media if anyone is cuirous about the responses.
I don't know Barker's play so can't comment on the content but it does strike me as obvious to cast actors of the correct Ethnicity for a play that describes itself as set in 'Ancient China'
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Post by Phantom of London on Dec 18, 2016 17:40:20 GMT
What thread are you even reading that you've decided someone's actually come to that conclusion? 'Cos it's clearly not this one! I was being focesious, do I actually think we should go back to the minstrels shows, hell no. But then again it was great I brought it up as it is a timely reminder how much forward theatre has come. I was at Mary Stuart yesterday afternoon and 4 of the artists were represented by BAM actors, which in the 16 century would have been very very unlikely, however reading the reviews I don't recall one screaming this is 'inappropriate and unacceptable casting', not even Quentin Letts, they just saw it and enjoyed it for what it is, just like one audience member did yesterday.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 18:16:19 GMT
There's a fair bit of controversy over The Print Room (in Notting Hill, I confess I didn't know of them previously) and their casting of Howard Barker's 'In the Depths' which has cast all white actors in roles written for/about China. Well, that's just ridiculous. I can kind of understand if they cast all white actors in something like Half A Sixpence (even though that still isn't ideal). But casting white people in roles that were especially written for people of a specific ethnicity, that's just crazy.
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Post by bellboard27 on Dec 18, 2016 19:02:02 GMT
I am not sure why anyone thinks the play was written for a Chinese cast. As far as I know it started as a play on Radio 4 with Richard E Grant in 2013.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 19:18:00 GMT
bellboard27I confess no personal knowledge of the play prior to today, that said the description of the play "Set in ancient China, In the Depths of Dead Love tells of a poet exiled from the Imperial Court & the favour of the Emperor, who scrapes a living by renting his peculiar property – a bottomless well – to aspiring suicides. Among these is a married couple who exert an appalling influence over him." Suggests to me that at the very least the Emporer and the couple mentioned should be of Chinese/East Asian origin? One could argue the poet may be a visitor, but this and the rest of the descriptions I've come across suggest a play set in China, about people from that region. Many people so far have also cited that Richard E Grant's casting in it was also, shall we say questionable, which also leads me to think the writing suggests the character should be East Asian. But if anyone has read it and can correct me otherwise, consider me corrected. Update that Andrew Keates and others seem to be planning an actual protest outside the theatre, as well as the online protest. (his twitter has much more on this and is where I'm getting much of the response feedback from that I've commented about here)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 19:35:41 GMT
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Post by lynette on Dec 18, 2016 19:43:12 GMT
The Orphan of Zhao was a highlight of theatre going for me. I was sad about the casting controversy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 19:50:50 GMT
I'd somehow missed that when it happened and came across that same article today in relation to the Barker play controversy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 20:39:34 GMT
I think it is wrong to say that 'most shows should have a diverse cast' - all shows should have the best cast possible from the available talent who are appropriate for the roles. The only restriction should be talent based not trying to fit some prescription so as to meet an externally (and subjectively) set target. But I mean if you went to an ArtsEd school then there's going to be such a mix of white and black students so it's not like there's is a shortage of black performers - look at how many turn up for open auditions for Motown and Aladdin!!
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Post by bellboard27 on Dec 19, 2016 9:46:51 GMT
Do you think the Print Room would have the same protests if it had cast 4 black actors instead of 4 white actors?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 9:52:36 GMT
It's still yellow face, so given the reactions I've seen as I've been following the story, I'd say yes. Though *possibly* there would be a small additional contingent thinking "well they've cast BAME actors, I don't see the problem", well-meaning enough but still entirely missing the point.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 9:55:19 GMT
Do you think the Print Room would have the same protests if it had cast 4 black actors instead of 4 white actors? For the record I don't have a strong opinion on this play because as I stated I don't know the play. I was just reporting back something I was seeing on social media because it seemed pertinent to the conversation here. Also I'm not sure this 'protest' is actually that big of one...again I'm just passing on what I've seen.
Do you mean 4 black actors in this particular play? if so probably, as the issue seems to be that it is a play about Chinese culture/heritage so not only is it a version of 'yellowface' to put actors of a different ethnicity in the role, but it's also an element of cultural appropriation. Again I'm paraphrasing what I understand from various discussion I've read on the play. It IS an interesting question however when you swap one minority group for another. In some plays/musicals it doesn't matter-others it does because the characters are directly linked to a certain group.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 10:01:28 GMT
I am not sure why anyone thinks the play was written for a Chinese cast. As far as I know it started as a play on Radio 4 with Richard E Grant in 2013. Yes, it was a Radio 3 play with an all white cast including Grant and Francesca Annis. I've found a couple of reviews (including one from The Stage) which give no indication that the Chinese characters being played by Caucasian actors is part of the point of the play (if you see what I mean). Interestingly neither of the reviews mentioned the fact that the characters were all played by Caucasian actors.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 10:08:09 GMT
I am not sure why anyone thinks the play was written for a Chinese cast. As far as I know it started as a play on Radio 4 with Richard E Grant in 2013. Yes, it was a Radio 3 play with an all white cast including Grant and Francesca Annis. I've found a couple of reviews (including one from The Stage) which give no indication that the Chinese characters being played by Caucasian actors is part of the point of the play (if you see what I mean). Interestingly neither of the reviews mentioned the fact that the characters were all played by Caucasian actors. Yeah when first reading about it I wondered if there was some kind of artistic/political statement being made in using White actors too, but apparently not!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 10:11:54 GMT
In not purposefully making a statement though, they are continuing to indirectly but loudly make the statement that "white is default, white is baseline, white is the norm", which the world REALLY needs to get over like yesterday.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 10:18:04 GMT
In not purposefully making a statement though, they are continuing to indirectly but loudly make the statement that "white is default, white is baseline, white is the norm", which the world REALLY needs to get over like yesterday. Yes, sorry I was trying to include that sentiment in my comment... couldn't' find the right wording!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 10:33:08 GMT
Coming late to this thread, I can report that I listened to the BBC Radio 3 production of Howard Barker's play. It's like most of his plays in that it's not at all an ethnological immersion in a culture, but instead a philosophical firework sparked by a situation or moment or character, real or fictional. All his roles are pure Barker creations, all speaking in his unique poetic language, and they aren't even strictly characters because they mutate from scene to scene or even from line to line, with only the voice remaining the same. It would be completely missing the point to want Howard Barker's roles to be cast and played on the basis of the supposed race or characteristics of any real people or known fictional characters suggested by their names.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 10:51:53 GMT
Coming late to this thread, I can report that I listened to the BBC Radio 3 production of Howard Barker's play. It's like most of his plays in that it's not at all an ethnological immersion in a culture, but instead a philosophical firework sparked by a situation or moment or character, real or fictional. All his roles are pure Barker creations, all speaking in his unique poetic language, and they aren't even strictly characters because they mutate from scene to scene or even from line to line, with only the voice remaining the same. It would be completely missing the point to want Howard Barker's roles to be cast and played on the basis of the supposed race or characteristics of any real people or known fictional characters suggested by their names. Thanks for the clarification Honoured Guest- as I said further up I was just reporting on it because the social media comments seemed relevant to the discussion we've already been having here in the broader context, and not knowing the play at all wondered what anyone who did thought.
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Post by kathryn on Dec 19, 2016 16:27:40 GMT
Coming late to this thread, I can report that I listened to the BBC Radio 3 production of Howard Barker's play. It's like most of his plays in that it's not at all an ethnological immersion in a culture, but instead a philosophical firework sparked by a situation or moment or character, real or fictional. All his roles are pure Barker creations, all speaking in his unique poetic language, and they aren't even strictly characters because they mutate from scene to scene or even from line to line, with only the voice remaining the same. It would be completely missing the point to want Howard Barker's roles to be cast and played on the basis of the supposed race or characteristics of any real people or known fictional characters suggested by their names. This is not going to make any difference - I can see people on Twitter already claiming that using Chinese names means its cultural appropriation. I am really coming to hate the 'cultural appropriation' criticism. I'm old enough to remember when progressives thought that the melting pot - cultures mixing and melding with one another - was a good idea, and the best way to encourage tolerance and peaceful co-existence. I definitely preferred that philosophy over this current trend for getting offended over fancy dress, fusion cooking and using words and names from other cultures.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 16:34:37 GMT
Just because some people throw the words "cultural appropriation" around willynilly doesn't mean it's not a valid criticism in many cases. It's perfectly possible to explore, appreciate, and enjoy other people's cultures without ignorantly pissing all over them to make yourself seem "cool" or to make your vanity project look more "mystical". We still have WAY too much ignorant pissing going on to do away with the term "cultural appropriation" all together.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 16:43:22 GMT
The word is "altogether".
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Post by kathryn on Dec 19, 2016 16:48:51 GMT
It just seems that some so-called 'activists' are determined to go after low-hanging fruit with their criticism, and often have a knee-jerk offended reaction to stuff without even knowing anything about its context, and then double-down when people who do have some actual knowledge point out that their criticism doesn't really apply.
We end up with people twisting themselves up in knots trying to negotiate a way through without offending people and still getting called racist. And that *is* the word that gets used - there's rarely nuance allowed, it all boils down to 'racist'.
It really makes it hard to take seriously once you've seen that happen a few times to people and organizations who are trying painfully hard to be diverse and actually doing really good work.
And when we have real, *actual* racists getting into positions of real, actual power, it really makes the angst over who uses what words, who wears what clothes, who makes what food, and who plays what roles seem completely pointless.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 23:35:34 GMT
It would be nice to think Keates' heart is in the right place, but unfortunately the tone of his correspondence is unpleasant and comes across as somewhat bullying. 'Your tiny theatre', 'cancerous little show', 'disgusting and bigoted casting' (and I see one of his supporters has now started criticising the actors they've cast - how delightful).
If you're going to engage people in debate, the least you can do is address the points they make. His response to the theatre's statement appears only a small step above sticking his fingers in his ears, going 'nyah nyah nyah, can't hear you' and stamping his foot even louder the second time. Which does a huge disservice to the very serious issue of under-representation in the arts.
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Post by bee on Dec 20, 2016 7:06:06 GMT
This controversy got me wondering, are opera companies these days obliged to cast Chinese/Japanese singers when they perform Turandot or Madame Butterfly? I don't follow opera at all so have no idea to what extent they are subject to the same pressures as the theatre world.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 7:17:28 GMT
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