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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 22:29:45 GMT
Have a look at tomorrow night
Balcony closed
Still not even 40% sold out?
You think when it magically fills up tomorrow evening
People have actually paid for it?
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Post by kathryn on Dec 2, 2016 14:49:57 GMT
Honestly I'm starting to think that learned helplessness is part of the problem. There are opportunities there - colour blind casting has been the norm at the major theatre companies for years, as we have repeatedly discussed - but the perception is overwhelmingly the opposite.
There was an interview with Leah Harvey in the Guardian about being a black drama student, about being the only non-white student in her year and how the fear of stereotyping is 'crippling'. But then half way through she decides she's actually in a really good position, because there's so much pressure on companies now to have diverse casts and so few non-white actors coming out of drama school, her chances of getting parts are actually pretty good.
She was cast in the Donmar prison trilogy more or less straight out of drama school. I wonder how many of her classmates have done as well?
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Post by 49thand8th on Dec 2, 2016 16:36:23 GMT
Well, yea, they cast Preeya Kalidas as Patty and I remember the black teacher. I guess I shouldn't have written "completely" but I basically meant that all his shows have white protagonists. Will we see a black Dewey Finn or a black Stephen Ward? I doubt it. If ALW wants more diversity why not write musicals that offer leading parts for BAME actors the way Bombay Dreams did or the shows Kathryn mentions such as The Colour Purple or Memphis. Although it's interesting to note that all of the shows mentioned, except Beckham, have American roots. What about all the kids? (You're right about "completely." ) I doubt we'll ever see a black Dewey Finn, but who knows, right? I agree that it'd be nice to see more roles like those in Allegiance -- roles written for a particular ethnic group that don't necessarily take place in their country of ancestry.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 16:59:31 GMT
I think all shows should have a diverse cast and not be all white. I mean I feel a story is true and the main characters are actually white in real life then fair enough but there's ot a big excuse for having black actors in the ensemble, other roles etc?!
Hamilton is a prime example of tearing up the rule book and having a diverse cast amongst all roles, can't be done for every musical I know
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 17:08:55 GMT
I was there last Friday It really wasn't full And many hadn't paid to be there But that isn't the Same as being empty Is it?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 18:11:57 GMT
I was there last Friday It really wasn't full And many hadn't paid to be there But that isn't the Same as being empty Is it? Yes, it's not quite the same in my opinion
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Post by max on Dec 2, 2016 21:02:32 GMT
Well, yea, they cast Preeya Kalidas as Patty and I remember the black teacher. I guess I shouldn't have written "completely" but I basically meant that all his shows have white protagonists. Will we see a black Dewey Finn or a black Stephen Ward? I doubt it. If ALW wants more diversity why not write musicals that offer leading parts for BAME actors the way Bombay Dreams did or the shows Kathryn mentions such as The Colour Purple or Memphis. Although it's interesting to note that all of the shows mentioned, except Beckham, have American roots. "All his shows have white protagonists" is wrong. Jump back to 1984: Ray Shell (the protagonist hero), Lon Satton (the wise one), plus the then hot body-popping sensation Jeffrey Daniel and the legend PP Arnold in 'Starlight Express' London premiere cast. That's only the featured roles. More generally...Dihann Carol as Canada's Norma Desmond in 'Sunset Boulevard', Norm Lewis as Broadway's 'Phantom Of The Opera'(if only Sammy Davis Jr had played it two decades before). Numerous performers in 'Cats' over the years. Forget the adults, what about the kids in 'School Of Rock '? Across the 3 casts they'll be inspiring other young people of all backgrounds and ethnicities to look at the stage or poster and think 'that could be Me'. I think "well what have YOU done?" isn't the most sound reproach to this report.
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Post by djp on Dec 3, 2016 0:41:59 GMT
I do think Broadway Theater is more diverse. All 4 Musical Theater Tony Winners were non white. I do feel when Leanne Jones who is a big girl needs to go the voice and has had a lack of roles there is this idea of skinny white people should be the only ones to cast. Diversity is always good . But is 9 shows that have non white ast members good or bad Its got a far larger minority population - almost a majority population - which is the main reason Trump won. ALW needs to go to other musicals a bit - Hamilton Incoming, Motown, Memphis, DreamGirls, Bodyguard , Showboat, Sister Act ........ Bendit, and pretty colour blind casting in most other musicals - every role from Donkey and Bok to Eponine and Rum Tum Tugger recently. There's probably a higher percentage of top black actors working than there are white ones currently .
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2016 18:25:14 GMT
Are there any other shows in London or coming to London next year that have an all-white cast though?
I know Half a Sixpence does.
I'm all for diversity in tetare, even if it they incorporate a person of colour into the ensemble, it can be done. 42nd Street have done it and included a lot in their ensemble
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 8:35:36 GMT
I don't know about future shows, but I'd hope that theatre can do better generally than putting "a person of colour into the ensemble". Reeks of tokenism. Only thing worse, frankly, is when shows have a single black woman in the cast and you JUST KNOW that it's because there's a big gospel-type number in the second act. I mean, yay, well done, in your writing you've acknowledged that POC exist, but wow did you have to go down the massive cliché route as though there are things that only POC do and for that matter that POC only do because frankly ew.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 8:59:15 GMT
I don't know about future shows, but I'd hope that theatre can do better generally than putting "a person of colour into the ensemble". Reeks of tokenism. Only thing worse, frankly, is when shows have a single black woman in the cast and you JUST KNOW that it's because there's a big gospel-type number in the second act. I mean, yay, well done, in your writing you've acknowledged that POC exist, but wow did you have to go down the massive cliché route as though there are things that only POC do and for that matter that POC only do because frankly ew. Yup- this annoyed me about the otherwise DELIGHTFULLY SILLY 'Something Rotten' the only POC ensemble member was and African American lady clearly only there to do the 'Dreamgirls' gag/notes. Also case in point of there is no reason for the ensemble not to be diverse- if you're all using American accents for a story about Shakespeare then you can have non white cast too...(as I mentioned above though Holiday Inn which I'd expect to have been whiter than white surpassed expectations in not only a lovely diverse ensemble but a POC lead in Corbin Bleu, so no excuse!)
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Post by mallardo on Dec 15, 2016 11:48:34 GMT
I don't think it affects your point re the ensemble of Something Rotten but the Minstrel who opens the show with Welcome To The Renaissance was Michael James Scott in the original cast, an African American actor, as is Andre Ward in the current cast.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 11:52:08 GMT
I don't think it affects your point re the ensemble of Something Rotten but the Minstrel who opens the show with Welcome To The Renaissance was Michael James Scott in the original cast, an African American actor, as is Andre Ward in the current cast. I stand corrected in the broader ensemble sense! (admittedly it was the last thing I saw in a long week so my powers of observation may not have been their best and/or there may have been understudies because I also didn't pay attention! ) But I think you're right the original point still stands.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 13:04:50 GMT
I don't know about future shows, but I'd hope that theatre can do better generally than putting "a person of colour into the ensemble". Reeks of tokenism. Only thing worse, frankly, is when shows have a single black woman in the cast and you JUST KNOW that it's because there's a big gospel-type number in the second act. I mean, yay, well done, in your writing you've acknowledged that POC exist, but wow did you have to go down the massive cliché route as though there are things that only POC do and for that matter that POC only do because frankly ew. I agree with this very much. I don't think any show really has much excuse for not having people of colour in a show.. Hamilton is a prime example of 'tearing up the rule book'.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 13:13:27 GMT
Went to see Wild Honey at Hampstead last week, the only non-white people on stage (and possibly in the entire building!) were in the small role as the messenger, and a second actor who turns up at the start as a servant carrying a box and later on as a peasant.
Which to me feels worse than having an entirely white cast, as they can't use the Trevor Nunn defence that the lack of diversity is due to some idea of "historical authenticity" ("OK, we ticked the diversity box with the box carrier, no need to worry about the leads")
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 18:30:33 GMT
Xanderl, you should have worn a turban or something in protest. Perhaps you did, or do?
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Post by Mark on Dec 16, 2016 10:32:54 GMT
I don't know about future shows, but I'd hope that theatre can do better generally than putting "a person of colour into the ensemble". Reeks of tokenism. Only thing worse, frankly, is when shows have a single black woman in the cast and you JUST KNOW that it's because there's a big gospel-type number in the second act. I mean, yay, well done, in your writing you've acknowledged that POC exist, but wow did you have to go down the massive cliché route as though there are things that only POC do and for that matter that POC only do because frankly ew. Same the other way though with Dreamgirls - token white guy to sing Cadillac car.
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Post by Phantom of London on Dec 16, 2016 13:56:13 GMT
Are we saying that they should bring back Minstrel Shows?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2016 14:50:02 GMT
What thread are you even reading that you've decided someone's actually come to that conclusion? 'Cos it's clearly not this one!
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Post by bellboard27 on Dec 16, 2016 22:35:46 GMT
At 42nd Street tonight in Paris. Over 40 cast on stage. I know looks can be deceptive, but all looked white to me. (And maybe some alternates not on tonight are not white). But it did strike me as I watched it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2016 9:45:14 GMT
At 42nd Street tonight in Paris. Over 40 cast on stage. I know looks can be deceptive, but all looked white to me. (And maybe some alternates not on tonight are not white). But it did strike me as I watched it. Yeah I agree it can strike you when you are watching a big cast in a show and there isn't one actor who is non-white. At drama schools, you get people of all ethnicities so it's not like there aren't any performers who are non-white. However, then again, you have got shows like The Bodyguard, Memphis, Motown, Dreamgirls, Kinky Boots, Thriller that all have non-white lead characters. I just think most shows should have a diverse cast
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Post by oxfordsimon on Dec 17, 2016 11:50:54 GMT
I think it is wrong to say that 'most shows should have a diverse cast' - all shows should have the best cast possible from the available talent who are appropriate for the roles. The only restriction should be talent based not trying to fit some prescription so as to meet an externally (and subjectively) set target.
It is absolutely a good thing to represent the whole of society in our theatrical productions but that should happen organically not be imposed. There are examples of colour blind casting which has really worked to enhance the theatrical experience and those where it (to my mind) has not.
For instance, the Henry IVs at the National with Gambon and McFadyen made it work brilliantly with the Northumberland clan being portrayed by actors of colour - it was seamlessly done without appearing to have an agenda. On the flip side, there was a touring production of The Railway Children a number of years ago where both parents were white, as was the youngest child but the two other children were black. This took the audience out of the story and created more questions than the production was able to answer.
My point is that the casting has to be sensitive to the piece and not tokenistic - which is what can happen when people are trying to do the right thing but not quite achieving a polished result.
I know some will argue that we should look beyond the colour of an actor's skin and focus on the performance - but I don't believe that is always possible. A production has to take us with it - not set up barriers.
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Post by DuchessConstance on Dec 17, 2016 18:24:16 GMT
But it won't happen "organically" unless people take steps to make it happen, because the system is so comprehensively predicated on levels of endemic racism.
There are many wonderful non-white actors but they have a million barriers against them that white actors do not have.
When I cast productions, I often have to make a special effort to find non-white actors to audition. Sometimes they are not the right people for the job, but they should at least be considered, and often they are not. That should not be the case. The traditional casting system (and remember the casting system in this country is still pretty much a monopoly) is white-centric and also very ableist. The traditional way roles are cast in this country doesn't give you access to all the professional actors out there, and in my opinion often not the most talented ones. That's why you see the same few faces over and over again on TV, because it is such a monopoly.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Dec 17, 2016 19:55:35 GMT
How do you design a system to enforce properly open casting?
Who is going to monitor and police it?
Surely it can only be encouraged and celebrated when it works well - that is the way producers, directors and casting directors will be persuaded to be fully open in their attitude to casting.
I don't see any other way.
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Post by DuchessConstance on Dec 17, 2016 23:19:49 GMT
Actually Equity are involved in doing just that, and I'm personally involved in working with Spotlight about their disability access and representation. There are a lot of small changes being mooted that can and will make a big difference.
Though I don't think the current British monopoly is sustainable, and that we will ultimately move more towards an American casting system.
But fundamentally people need to be willing. If you are a director or casting director and all the actors given to you to shortlist from are white, that is a problem. If a person doesn't recognise that and speak up and actively seek out non-white actors for consideration, I think they need to examine their own entrenched racial attitudes.
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